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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 3:06 pm 
Sumerul
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p- t- ts- k- kʷ- q- qʷ- ʔ- + aspiration, voicing (ɢ > j)
m- n- ŋ- ŋʷ- l- r- + voicelessness
s-
all + pharyngealization

a e ə o i u

-p -t -k -kʷ -ps -ts -ks -kʷs
-m -n -ŋ -ŋʷ -mʔ -nʔ -ŋʔ -ŋʷʔ -ms -ns -ŋs -ŋʷs
-r -rʔ -rs -j -jʔ -js -w -wʔ -ws

[k]ˤro[n] [k]ˤro[n] [tsʰ]a ku
[dz]ˤəʔ [C.g]ˤaj tə tu
ʔˁ[e]wʔ lˁ[e]wʔ [d]ikʷ nraʔ
C.qur tsəʔ qʰˤuʔ g(r)u

------

p b t d tʃ dʒ k g
f (v) θ (ð) ʃ (x) h
l r j w
m n (ŋ)

i i: (y y:) u u:
e e: (ø øː) o o:
ɛː ɔː
a a:

(iu ui)
(ɛi) ɔi ɛu ɔu
ai au

kˁek-s
deʔ

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Sun May 08, 2016 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 3:36 pm 
Sumerul
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Making a Sinitic language?

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Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 6:44 pm 
Smeric
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if ɢ goes to j then what happens to ɢʷ?


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 10:58 pm 
Sumerul
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ɢʷ- becomes jw- ɢʷˤ- becomes hw-.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:39 pm 
Sumerul
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i should back this thread up at some point in case i ever start caring about conlanging again

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:11 pm 
Sumerul
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Makhachkala Norse

vowels: a ja á æ e é i í (ǫ jǫ ǫ́) o ó u ú jó jú ø œ y ý ei ey au

w > v
h > x
þ ð > t d

æi øy au > ē ø̄ ø̄
ja > jæ
é œ ó > ie yø uo
á > oa
íV > ijjV > iggjV
j > jji > ggji / _r _ʀ
í ý ú > ai oi au
(ǫ́ > oa, or maybe uo)

CjV > CʲV
Ci[-stress] > Cʲi[-stress]
Cʀ > Cuʀ
kʲ gʲ xʲ > ts z ʃ
f s ʃ > v z ʒ / V_V
rʲ > ʒ
ʀ > r
unstressed vowels and (Vr) uʀ are lost

consonant length > vowel length~quality
ĭe y̆ø ŭo > je ɥø wo
ăi ŏi > ei ui

minor changes:
v > 0 / _V[+round]
r > ʃ / _C[-voice]
rs > ʃʃ
hv > f

Old: einn tvá þrír/þrjú (neuter) fjórir fimm sex sjau átta níu tíu
Middle: ienn tvoa triggjir/trjau fjuorjir fimm sex sjyø oatta niggju tiggju
Modern: jɛn toa̯ tʃau fʲuoʐ fɪm sɛks sʲyø̯ ɔa̯t nɪz tɪz
Standard Cyrillic: ен то чаў фёж фим секс сьоь от низ тиз
Linguistic Cyrillic: иен то̄а ча̄ў фю̄ож фим секс сьӯоь оат низ тиз
Latin: yen toa çau fyuoj fim seks sjüö oat niz tiz

---

Faþer vár es ert í himenríki, verði nafn þitt hæilagt.
Til kome ríke þitt, værði vili þin
sva a iarðu sem í himnum.
Gef oss í dag brauð vort dagligt,
Ok fyr gefþu oss synþer órar,
sem vér fyr gefom þeim er viþ oss hafa misgert
Leiðd oss eigi í freistni, heldr leys þv oss frá öllu illu.

faːd(e)r oa̯ːr eːs ɛʃt ai̯ː hiːmə(l)rai̯ːts(i), vɛrd(i) namn tɪt ʃie̯ːlaxt
Фадер оар ес ешт ай хиймелрайц, вердь намuн тит шиелахт.
Fader oar es eşt ay hiymelrayc, verd' namun tit şielaht.

presumably this would be more like
Fader oar, far eşt ai hiymel, verd' namun tit şielaht.

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:58 pm 
Sumerul
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Masculine and neuter nouns:

More: show
Code:
    MASC A-STEM                     NEUT A-STEM
    harmr           himinn          barn            kné
    SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL
NOM harm    hârmr   şîmьtnь şîmnr   barn    barn    knie    knie
ACC harm    hârm    şîmьnь  şîmn    barn    barn    knie    knie
GEN harms   hârm    şîmьnьs şîmn    barns   bârn    knies   knьoa
DAT hârmь   hârm    şîmьnь  şîmn    bârnь   bârn    knie    knьoam

    MASC A-STEM
    armr            hamarr         
    SG      PL      SG      PL   
NOM armr    ârmr    hâmtr   hâmr       
ACC arm     ârm     hâmr    hâmr   
GEN arms    ârm     hâmrs   hâmr   
DAT armь    ârm     hâmrь   hâmr   

    MASC JA-STEM                    NEUT JA-STEM
    niðr (short)    hirðir (long)   ríki (long)     kyn (short)     kvæði (long)
    SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL
NOM nid     nîdьrь  şîrdь   şîrdr   râikь   râikь   kyn     kyn     kvæ^dь  kvæ^dь
ACC nid     nîdь    şîrdь   şîrd    râikь   râikь   kyn     kyn     kvæ^dь  kvæ^dь
GEN nids    nîdь    şîrdьs  şîrd    râikьs  râikь   kyns    ky^nь   kvæ^dьs kvæ^d
DAT nid     nîdь    şîrdь   şîrd    râikь   râikь   ky^nь   ky^nь   kvæ^dь  kvæ^d

    MASC WA-STEM                    NEUT WA-STEM
    sǫngr           sær             hǫgg
    SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL
NOM songr   sôngvr  sær     sæ^ur   hogg    hogg
ACC song    sôngv   sæ      sæ^v    hogg    hogg
GEN songs   sôngv   sæu^r   sæ^v    hoggs   hoggv
DAT songьv  sông    sævь    sæ^um   hoggьv  hogg


Masculine a-stems:
Code:
    SG  PL
NOM -:r -^r
ACC -0  -^
GEN -s  -^
DAT -ь  -^


Neuter a-stems:
Code:
    SG  PL
NOM -0  -0
ACC -0  -0
GEN -s  -^
DAT -ь  -^


Masculine ja-stems: (these should be regularized; palatalization is difficult)
Code:
    SG  PL
NOM -r  -^(ь)
ACC -0  -^(ь)
GEN -s  -^(ь)
DAT -ь  -^(ь)


Neuter ja-stems: (these should also be regularized)
Code:
    SG   PL
NOM -(ь) -^(ь)
ACC -(ь) -^(ь)
GEN -(ь)s-^(ь)
DAT -(ь) -^(ь)


Masculine wa-stems:
Code:
    SG  PL
NOM -r  -^vr
ACC -0  -^v
GEN -s  -^v
DAT -^ьv-^


Neuter wa-stems:
Code:
    SG  PL
NOM -0  -0
ACC -0  -0
GEN -s  -^v
DAT -ьv -^


The masculine nominative singular affix -r turns -n -l -r to -t -(t)ɬ -(t)ʃ.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:24 pm 
Sumerul
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actually it might be better to kill -r / preserve some unstressed vowels, also -Dr# > -D, mb nd ng > mm nn NN

More: show
Code:
    FEMININE O:-STEM
    grǫf            fjǫðr           á
    SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL
NOM graf    grâvr   fjar    fjâr    oa      oar
ACC graf    grâvr   fjar    fjâr    oa      oar
GEN grâvr   grâv    fjâr    fjâr    oar     oa
DAT graf    grâv    fjar    fjâr    oa      oam

    FEMININE JO:-STEM
    ben             ey              heiðr (long)
    SG      PL      SG      PL      SG      PL
NOM ben     bênь    üö      üö^j    hîedr   hîed
ACC ben     bênь    üö      üö^j    hîedь   hîed
GEN bênь    bênь    üö^j    üö^j    hîed    hîed
DAT ben     bênь    üö^j    üö^j    hîedь   hîed

    FEMININE WO:-STEM
    ǫr             
    SG      PL
NOM or      ôrv
ACC or      ôrv
GEN ôrv     ôrv
DAT or      ôr

    R-STEM NOUNS
    faðir           mó́ðir           bróðir           dó́ttir 
    SG      PL      SG      PL      SG       PL      SG      PL
NOM farь    fer     muorь   müör    bruorь   brüör   duotrь  düötr
ACC fer     fer     muor    müör    bruor    brüör   duotr   düötr
GEN fer     fêr     muor    müö^r   bruor    brüö^r  duotr   düö^tr
DAT fer     fêr     muor    müö^r   bruor    brüö^r  duotr   düö^tr

    ND-STEM
    bóndi   
    SG      PL
NOM buo^nnь büö^nnr
GEN buo^nn  büö^nnr
ACC buo^nn  büö^nnr
DAT buo^nn  büö^nnr


Feminine o:-stems:
Code:
    SG    PL
NOM -0    -^r
ACC -0    -^r
GEN -^r   -^r
DAT -0    -^r


Feminine jo:-stems:
Code:
    SG    PL
NOM -0/^r -^ь/0
ACC -0/ь  -^ь/0
GEN -^ь/0 -^ь/0
DAT -0/ь  -^ь/0


Feminine wo-stems:
Code:
    SG    PL
NOM -0  -^v
ACC -0  -^v
GEN -^v -^v
DAT -0  -^


R-stems:
Code:
    R-STEM NOUNS
    SG      PL
NOM -ь      -"
ACC -0      -" 
GEN -0      -^"   
DAT -0      -^"


ND-stems:
Code:
    SG      PL
NOM -ь      -"r
ACC -0      -"r
GEN -0      -0
DAT -0      -0


Masculine consonant-stems: (I don't care enough to draw up tables for these)
Code:
    SG      PL
NOM -r      -(")
ACC -0      -(")
GEN -s/r    -^
DAT -^ь     -^


Feminine consonant-stems: (see above)
Code:
    SG      PL
NOM -0      -"r
ACC -0      -"r
GEN -(")r/^ -^
DAT -0      -^

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:32 am 
Sumerul
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1) Dr > r
2) intervocalic D is lost
3) tone develops
4) Cr# epenthesizes (to C@r or Cir?)
5) hiatus is resolved
6) tone is probably regularized out

staðr stað staðar stað
staðir staði staða stǫðum

star sta: sta:ar stad
sta:ir sta:i sta:a sta:um

star stoa stôar stad
stôajr stôaj stôa stôam

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:32 am 
Smeric
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Some varyags got stuck in the North Caucasus? Interesting idea.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:27 pm 
Sumerul
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Swedish: Det var en fuktig, grå sommardag i slutet av juni.
Danish: Det var en fugtig, grå sommerdag i slutningen af juni.
Norwegian (Bokmål): Det var en fuktig, grå sommerdag i slutten av juni.
Norwegian (Nynorsk): Det var ein fuktig, grå sumardag/sommardag i slutten/enden av juni.
Icelandic: Það var rakur, grár sumardagur í lok júní.
Faroese: Tað var ein rakur/fuktigur, gráur summardagur síðst í juni.
Makhachkala Norse: Tu* var in vlažnar**, groar sûmardağr v*** ênden**** jûni. / Ту вар ин влажнер, грор сумардагър в енден юни.
[tu vaɾ ɪn ˈvlaʐnər, groa̯ːr ˈsûmərˌdaʁr v ɛ̂nʲdʲɪn ˈjûni]

* Irregular development: that > thað > toa > tu.
** Loan. I can't find ON rakr/fuktigr.
*** ON af. Expanded because coalescence.
**** Definite article.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:47 am 
Smeric
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Posts: 2316
Location: Bonn, Germany
Nortaneous wrote:
Makhachkala Norse: Tu* var in vlažnar**, groar sûmardağr v*** ênden**** jûni. / Ту вар ин влажнер, грор сумардагър в енден юни.
[tu vaɾ ɪn ˈvlaʐnər, groa̯ːr ˈsûmərˌdaʁr v ɛ̂nʲdʲɪn ˈjûni]
** Loan. I can't find ON rakr/fuktigr.

fuktig may be one of these Low German loans in Scandinavian; Torp only has West Germanic reflexes of PGmc. funxtja- "moist". For rak- he offers
Torp, "Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit", p. 226 wrote:
norw. mundartl. rake m. Feuchtigkeit, Nässe, isl. raki dass., rakr feucht. Ig. Wz. reg'. Vgl. lat. rigare bewässern, alb. rje, aor. rođa fließe, quelle, tropfe. Vgl. regana.

So this seems to be a West Nordic dialect word; I think you could base the Norse on the Icelandic.
A question on the loanword layers - wouldn't one expect more influence from neighbouring (Caucasian, Turkic) languages than from Russian? Or is yours a language death scenario, with the Makhachkala Norse speakers having become heavily Russianised in the 20th century? But if the Russian influence is so heavy that they loan relatively basic words like "moist", I'd expect the names of the months to be more similar to Russian than to modern Scandinavian.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:39 am 
Sumerul
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English "moist" is a loan!

I would expect influence from NEC (esp. Avar, Dargwa, and possibly Chechen) and Turkic (esp. Kumyk and Azeri), but I haven't worked that out yet. Presumably ejectives will develop somehow, but they could just be from loanwords. (I don't think rounded consonants would develop, but there could be a Georgian-like situation where /v/ > w > consonant/cluster rounding.)

If the Makhachkala Norse aren't targeted for ethnic cleansing and sent to Kazakhstan like the Volga Germans, I expect that they'd be fairly Russianized, and then turn to nationalism like the Abkhaz -- maybe a de-Russianizing linguistic purity movement, probably a relatively vital neopagan sect, maybe even a separatist movement like Chechnya and Abkhazia, etc. (In a separatist scenario, the Makhachkala Norse would of course ally with the West, like Kosovo and Chechnya, and unlike Abkhazia and South Ossetia. A separatist movement doesn't seem likely to succeed.) A sect like this could rename the days and months in the interests of linguistic purity (possibly to a bastardization of the pagan Icelandic calendar) while overlooking Russian loans elsewhere.

Avar, Lak, and Chechen loaned the month names from Russian.

...Come to think of it, the founding population might not have been very Christianized. They would've settled there sometime in the tenth or eleventh century.

The point stands, however: if 'humid' is loaned, it'd probably be from Avar. The Avar-Andic languages have basically no documentation in English AFAICT. And I can't find a grammar of Kumyk or Dargwa. I guess the alternative is to have them end up in Georgia or Turkmenistan, or someplace where they'd get more influence from Chechen or Azeri than from Avar-Andic or Kumyk.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:00 pm 
Smeric
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Nortaneous wrote:
English "moist" is a loan!

Yes. My point was not that such words are never loaned, but that they are normally loaned from languages with a long and deep influence on the loaning language, like French had on English or Low German on the Scandinavian languages. So as you say, Avar, Kumyk, etc.
Nortaneous wrote:
And I can't find a grammar of Kumyk

Does this help?
http://xn----ntbbedaael5ct1hh8c.xn--p1ai
(There is a grammar under "Учим язык", for whatever reason I cannot copy the direct link on my phone, but only the link to the main site.)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:47 pm 
Sumerul
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I might move them to Chechnya to make it less difficult, but that seems implausible.

----

18:10 < Whimemsz> gimiwan "it's raining" = [gi.mi][wan] = gimiwan
18:11 < Whimemsz> gimiwana'am = "s/he is canoeing in the rain" = [gi.mi][wi.na][?am] = gimiwina'am
18:11 < Whimemsz> gimiwanishiiwayaan (dialectal) "rain coat" = [gi.mi][wa.ni][shii][wa.yaan] = gimiwanishiiwayaan
18:12 < Whimemsz> in syncopating dialects every unstressed vowel is lost
18:12 < Whimemsz> gmiwan, gmiwna'am, gmiwnishiiwyaan
18:13 < Whimemsz> so my raincoat = ningimiwanishiiwayaan = ngimwanshiiwyaan
18:13 < Whimemsz> [BUT those dialects have mostly innovated new personal prefixes to fix some of this, so "my raincoat" would be ndoo-gmiwnishiiwyaan]
18:14 < Whimemsz> [except this word for "raincoat" is from a different dialect but we're pretending it's the correct word for this purpose]
18:15 < Whimemsz> and the story of where the innovated prefixes come from is kind of interesting
18:17 < Whimemsz> there's a rule in all the dialects where an initial short o- is lengthened to oo after a personal prefix (which are n(i)-/in-, g(i)-, o-, but take an epenthetic -d- before a vowel-initial stem). So like opwaagan "pipe"
but indoopwaagan
18:17 < Whimemsz> "my pipe"
18:18 < Whimemsz> so when you apply syncope: pwaagan vs ndoopwaagan
18:18 < Whimemsz> hence, ndoo- as a first person prefix
18:18 < Whimemsz> now generalized!
18:26 < nort_> i could do sth like that for uh
18:26 < nort_> amqoli is the one with syncope yeah
18:26 < nort_> uhhh which ones have syncope and which don't
18:27 < nort_> amqoli does
18:27 < nort_> deghuri
18:27 < nort_> d...oesn't?
18:27 < nort_> but it should
18:27 < nort_> some dialects will
18:27 < nort_> uh so off the top of my head
18:27 < nort_> there are a few sources of aspirated consonants
18:27 < nort_> one of which is Cp clusters
18:27 < nort_> Cp > Cf > Ch
18:28 < nort_> actually amqoli might have had p > f > h more frequently than that
18:28 < nort_> but p_j doesn't do the thing so maybe not
18:28 < nort_> p_j > pS
18:28 < nort_> amqoli loses j
18:28 < nort_> oh
18:28 < nort_> ok
18:29 < nort_> amqoli p disappears unless it... what is the right environment
18:29 < nort_> appears before a liquid or fricative
18:29 < nort_> and not disappears, becomes h
18:29 < nort_> maybe l is an exception but most Cl clusters disappear
18:29 < nort_> which is where k comes from
18:29 < nort_> *k split into tS and q, *g split into dZ and G\, then q and G\ merged
18:30 < nort_> so all k g in amqoli are from *kl *gl and maybe *kr *gr
18:30 < nort_> uhhh no that's wrong
18:30 < nort_> k g didn't all disappear, it was conditioned by vowels
18:31 < nort_> so in khar, it's not directly before a vowel
18:31 < nort_> also g didn't get backed
18:31 < nort_> ah yeah here we go
18:32 < nort_> *kəˈklə 'south' > kekle > cheke > chke
18:32 < nort_> some <q> reflects original clusters tho
18:32 < nort_> like *R
18:33 < nort_> which is mostly lost in all descendants
18:33 < nort_> but amqoli preserves it sometimes
18:33 < nort_> there are a few clusters amqoli preserves that deghuri and rengni lose
18:36 < nort_> ˈdʁəra > a. dqera [ˈdʁera], d. dərə, r. lug

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:19 pm 
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Proto-Yia > Proto-Hluic:

ɲ > r
c > ts
z > y
t k > ð ɣ / V_V
V: > V
k x ŋ > c ç ɲ / _i
ky xy ŋy > c ç ɲ
a$i a$u > ɤ$V (this change is shared with Vynyi)
i$a u$a > ɤ$V (this change is shared with Vynyi; note that {e o}${i u} don't also become schwa)

Stress shifts to the penultimate syllable and multisyllabic roots lose their unstressed vowels.

nP mβ nð ŋɣ > ⁿP[+voice] ⁿb ⁿd ⁿg
f > h
hP > P:
hC > C
ĩ ũ ẽ õ > æ̃ ɔ̃ ã ã
e > æ / _{c ç ɲ}

s ts > θ s

Proto-Hluic > Hlu:

V~ > V
?F > ?P[+implosive]
C[+alveolar]i > Cɯ
ax ɤx > ɤx ɯx
x > h > 0 / _#
t n > c ɲ / _i
æ e > e i
ik ix iŋ ic iç iɲ > ɯc ɯç ɯɲ ɯc ɯç ɯɲ
ek ex eŋ ec eç eɲ > ɤc ɤç ɤɲ ɤc ɤç ɤɲ
ɣV > Vˠ / C_
o u > we wi EXCEPT Vˠ VC[+velar]
w > 0 / C[+labial]_
aˠ eˠ ɤˠ oˠ iˠ ɯˠ uˠ > ɯa æ ɯɤ o ai ɯ u
P: > ⁿP[+voice]
C[-voice] > C[+implosive] / _V
l r > 0 / C_V
C[labial]CV > CV[+round]
ɯa ɯɤ > ɯ

Examples:

*karaŋa > *kraŋ > kaŋ
*muŋa > *mŋa > ŋɔ
*reɣa > *rɣa > rɯ
*tuNo > *tro > to
*tezi > *tyi > ʄi
*teɣo > *tɣo > ɗo
*ʔaβeŋi > ʔβæɲ > ɓɤɲ

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:57 pm 
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r > y syllable-initially and 0 syllable-finally, r is bad. note that this has the side-effect of making the 2sg pronoun yu)
ai > æ
ɯy > i

---

There are egophoric markers tu (< *tβɯˠ < *otaɣẽ; cf. V'eng tag) and çwi, perfective and imperfective respectively. These are descended from mildly irregular first-person-marked forms of the aspectual copulas: one of the oldest isoglosses in Hluic is the shift of pretonic o- to -β-, and Hlu itself is spoken just to the west of the dividing line. These particles take the second position in the phrase, but may fuse with the verb when appearing directly before it.

For example:

gwiʔ tw-ɤ-ɲɤm. yu tu-nɤ-ɲɤm ɤŋ
1S EGO-PST-drink. 2S EGO-2\PST-drink or
I drank. Did you drink?

gwiʔ tu βuya ɤ-ɲɤm. yu tu βuya nɤ-ɲɤm ɤŋ
1S EGO beer PST-drink. 2S EGO beer 2\PST-drink or

yæ çwi ɠeʄæɬ ɗɯ-la
house EGO.IPFV Gejaehl be_in-3
My house is on Gejaehl.

yæ ɠeʄæɬ ʄa (ɗi-a)
house Gejaehl be_in\PL-3
There are houses on Gejaehl.

(Etymological notes:
* The first-person singular pronoun gwiʔ is descended from a phrase cognate to V'eng (nk)ur e aʔ, roughly "me here", a circumlocution innovated to disambiguate from the third-person pronoun a. This is one of two common ways Hluic resolves this ambiguity; the other (and likely older, since it occurs both in the eastern regions and in Gyitha) is a descendant of Proto-Yia *aʔo for the first-person pronoun and [b]*mɣay[/i], roughly from "this one", for the third-person.
* 'Drink' < PY *(n)inima.
* 'Beer' is probably a late Kharidze loanword from, *buya.)

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:28 pm 
Sumerul
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(Final -t becomes a glottal stop after fronting preceding vowels, after which -s > -t. This makes inalienably possessed nouns somewhat irregular because syllabification: ɓweʔ-yu 'your penis' but ɓoɗæʔ 'my penis'. This doesn't happen with verbs, however.)

Hlu preserves the second-person prefix n-, but has lost and reinnovated all other person-number marking by grafting pronouns onto the verb. (This is drawn from Tangut.)

The first-person marker -æʔ can't coexist with the egophoric particles, so it generally only appears in questions: (note the absence of the past tense marker; this is because of the adverb. tense is ~relative)

ⁿgwiʔ niⁿjwiɠa ɲɤm-æʔ ɤŋ
1S yesterday(ADV) drink-1S
Did I drink yesterday?

Or involuntary actions, which don't take egophoricity:

ⁿgwi yi ɓoɗæʔ ⁿdo hɤk-æʔ
1S because my_penis enormous trip-1S
I just tripped over my enormous penis.

Cf. (note the fusion of tu and yi -- these fusional forms exist for many prepositions)

ⁿgwi twi ɓweʔyu ⁿdo çɤk
1S EGO-because your_penis enormous FUT\trip
I will (intentionally) trip over your enormous penis.

Or, in the second person:
yu yi ɓoɗæʔ ⁿdo n-ɤk-u
2S because my_penis enormous 2-trip-2S
You just tripped over my enormous penis.

(Etymological notes:
* 'yesterday' < *eteNu e zaka 'past day'. ue > uy > wi
* -(ŋ)i = abstract nominalizer; ne-ŋi 'that which is located at'
* fusion of *niɲ ytwiɠa to niɲjwiɠa
* adjectives are intensified by prenasalizing the initial consonant: ɗo 'big' > ⁿdo 'enormous')

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:46 pm 
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The history of the third-person pronouns is complicated. Hluic preserves the old semidistal demonstrative *ʔati > *ʔði, which compounded with *tenga and *hamatsi > *tŋa, *hmas to produce the gendered animate pronouns...

ʔði e tŋa > lyekŋa > yɤʔŋa
ʔði e hmas > lyehmas > yehmaɬ

ð > l is regular, ly > y is regular, place assimilation in PN clusters is regular. PN clusters usually become plain nasals in Hlu, but in some other Hluic languages they become geminate plosives, e.g. pre-Gyitha ʔðyekka. In some dialects these are compressed further, to yŋa yhmaɬ.

The third-person marker is -a for verbs that end in a consonant. For verbs that end in a vowel, -i -u -e -o become -ya -wa and low vowels take epenthetic -l-. As usual, this is reused for inalienable possession. Verbs that end in -ɯ and -ɤ (which are always singular) used to take zero-marked third person, but -la has spread by analogy.

Immediate future and far future are distinct. Far future is <y>, immediate future is... a verb that got grafted onto the complex, let's go with li. This means it also takes the person marking -- and remember, ly > y, so for third-person subjects it's ya-.

ⁿgwi tu yɤʔŋa li-ɓæ
1S EGO 3S.M IMF-fuck
I am going to fuck him.

yɤʔŋa kwɤ-la ɗɯ-la ya-ɓæ-la ɤŋ
3S.M ass-3 in-3 IMF.3-fuck-3 or
Are you going to fuck him/her in the ass?

Alternatively, the adpositional phrase can be incorporated, in which case it doesn't take as much person marking; but since the object isn't specified by the possession marking, it has to be made overt:

yɤʔŋa yehmaɬ ɗɯ-kwɤ-li-ɓæ-la ɤŋ
3S.M 3S.F in-ass-IMF-fuck-3 or
Are you going to fuck her in the ass?

The sentence yɤʔŋa ɗɯkwɤɓæla ɤŋ would be interpreted as having a dropped subject: "Are you going to fuck him in the ass?"

(Note that the positions of the noun and the adposition are reversed. This is due to the particulars of serial verb chains and word order in Hathic, although it would be slightly more complicated there. Hluic has Hathic influence, but it doesn't have the mess of focus particles that Hathic does, and doesn't use these chains as extensively. In Hlu, unlike in Gyitha, agglutinative compounding derived from serial verb chains being reinterpreted as one unit isn't obligatory, so either yɤʔŋa kwɤla ɗɯla yaɓæla ɤŋ or yɤʔŋa yehmaɬ ɗɯkwɤɓæla ɤŋ are acceptable; Gyitha doesn't allow the cognate of the first construction.)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:40 pm 
Sumerul
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(Vowel reduction proceeded in stages: word-final vowels in >2-syllable words were lost early, after palatalization but before everything else. Also, -β -ɣ > -w.)

In some cases, Hlu preserves plural marking, descended from Proto-Yia -i.

Verbs ending in -k -w -ŋ mutate to end in -c -y -ɲ, with various effects on the vowels: (note the secundative syntax)

ⁿgwiʔ tu tʰuk
1SG EGO run
I am running.

ŋæʔ tu tʰuc
1PL.EXCL EGO run\PL
We are running.

ⁿgwiʔ tu kɯw
1SG EGO swim
I am swimming.

ŋæʔ tu kwi
1PL.EXCL EGO swim\PL
We are swimming.

In some cases, this also causes ablaut:

ⁿgwiʔ çwi ɬɤŋ
1SG EGO.IPFV ferment_a_beverage
I ferment beverages.

ŋæʔ çwi ɬiɲ
1PL.EXCL EGO.IPFV ferment_a_beverage
We ferment beverages.

-ɤ- can become either -i- or -u-. -a- becomes -ɤ-. Most velarized vowel irregularities have been analogized out, but here's one that hasn't:

tʰowæʔ ya çwi yiw ɗæ
hand-1.POSS INSTR EGO.IPFV brick break
I break bricks with my hands.

tʰowæʔ ya çwi yiw ɗi
hand-1.POSS INSTR EGO.IPFV brick break
We break bricks with our hands.

(Etymological notes:
* The first-person exclusive plural pronoun ŋæʔ is from *ŋaako. The first-person inclusive plural pronoun ⁿgo is from *ŋakoNu. This vowel shortening may be regular.)
* *tafuko 'run' > tʰuk
* *keNuβa 'swim' > kruw > kɯw (dissimilation); uy > wi
* *lohiŋa 'ferment a beverage' > lhɤŋ > ɬɤŋ
* *taɣeNa 'destroy, break, split, chop' (NB: metathesis in Vengic to *taNaɣa) > tɣer > ɗæ)
* *dVroβu 'hand' > drow > tʰow; ow > ɤw so this is another irregular possessed noun (cf. tʰɤwyu 'your hand(s)')
* *yibu-ŋi 'bread' > ypʰuɲi; *hazaka 'feed' > çak. I didn't need either of these words for the examples.)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:52 pm 
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The Seven Kill Stele in the languages of Western Megarussia:

Zzyxwqnp (Vengic):

Hlu yBor (Hluic):
[n̥ɯç tʰau̯ ʔili cʰɯ jkʰa ɹa kʰɤɹ ⁿbu ŋu çi m̥un tʰæp]
Hnuex thau ili chue ykha ra khoer bu ngu xi hmun thaep.
hnuex thau ili chue y-kha ra khoer bu ngu xi hmun thaep.
heaven thing that NEG of-man PASS create.MAJ count mankind DAT give

Hlu yGejaehl (Hluic):
[kʰɤ n̥ɯc tʰu li jkʰɔ jɤʔŋɤcʰɯ ɬipʰu çim̥un tʰuk]
Khoe hnuex thu li ykha yoeqngoechue hliphu xihmun thuk.
khoe hnuex thu li ykha ya-qngoe-chue hliphu xihmun thuk
DEF heaven thing that of-man PASS-count-NEG HABIT-create mankind=DAT give

Gyitha (Hluic):

Rengni (Kharidze):
Zeru kachínî shaî bauijin maùngâ tuhuish.
[sèrū kātʃínî ʃɛ̂ pœ̀tʃìn mɔ̀ŋâ tūhȳʃ]
zeru kachini-^ shai-^ bau<i>gL-ing maù-nga-^ tu-huish
heaven thing-PL-ACC many-ACC man<PL>-GEN nourish-AGT_NMLZ-ACC 3S-create

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:59 pm 
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The protolanguages of the Harue area.

Proto-Kett:
/p t ts ts` ts\ k/
/(f) s s` s\ x h/
/m n n` J N/
/l l` L r r` j w/
/a Q e o i u/
+ some rounded consonants or wC/Cw clusters

Old Arve:
/(p) b t d ts k g/
/s x h/
/m n/
/l r j v\/
/{ a e 2 o i y1 u/

Old Sestmag:
/p b_< t (d) c k (g)/
/T s s` h/
/(D G)/
/m n N/
/l r j v\/
/a e o i u/

There's probably been some influence back and forth between Kett and Sestmag: Sestmag lenited *d *g but preserved *b as an implosive and Insular Kett developed b_< as its only implosive from *k_w; Insular Kett merged palatals into alveolars; Sestmag developed /Q/ (and /@/) and lost interdentals.

If Sestmag isn't an isolate, it's related to either Arve or Kannow; it probably isn't related to Kett. Kett could actually be related to Kannow, in which case the rounded consonants would be phonemic and would've been lost, maybe giving rise to *Q -- and the diachronics would be substantially less difficult if Proto-Kett either had *y or didn't have *Q. (The Insular Kett vowel system is /a e i y u/; if there's no *Q, that's a chain shift of o > u > y, or if there's *Q and *y, then o > 2 > e or o > U > u under Arve influence and Q > a.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:22 pm 
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daily reminder that palm trees are aliens uwu
say it louder for the people in the back
daily reminder that palm trees are aliens uwu

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:59 pm 
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Gehui to Pre-Jedlug:

bʲ bʷ d ɟ g > vʲ vʷ z ʑ ɣ

ʘʲʰ ʘʲ ᶢʘʲ ᵑʘʲ > pʲʰ pʲ bʲ mʲ
ʘʷʰ ʘʷ ᶢʘʷ ᵑʘʷ > pʷʰ pʷ bʷ mʷ
|ʰ | ᶢ| ᵑ| > tʰ t d n
!ʰ ! ᶢ! ᵑ! > kʰ k g ŋ
ǁʰ ǁ ᶢǁ ᵑǁ > tˡʰ tˡ dˡ nˡ
ǂʰ ǂ ᶢǂ ᵑǂ > cʰ c ɟ ɲ

Cʲu Cʲɨ > Cʲi Cʲi
e > i / Cʲ_Cʲ
Cʷi > Cʷɯ
Pʷə > Pʷo
ɨ u > ɯ
əK[+voice] > ɯK[+voice]
u˞ > ɯ˞
Vħ > Vˤ
Pʲɔ > Pʷɔ
ɔ > a

Pre-Jedlug to Rau:

o a: > ə o
glottal stop epenthesis for syllables with no onset
KVˤ > QVˤ
Ka > Qa (but velar and uvular nasals never contrast)
nˡ > dˡ
vʲ vʷ > ʑ ɣ
f > x
Pʷa > Pʷo
aK > əK
ʎ > ʑ / $_
ʎ > y
aɲ ay > e
cʰ c ɟ ɲ > ɕ ɕt ʑd ʑ
ʍ w > h ɣ / V[+round]
C[implosive] > C[nasal]
Pʷ > K
Pʲ > P
aspirates > fricatives
V˞ > V
we wo > ʌ
wɯ > o
e > i / C[+palatal]_
e i > ʌ ɯ / _C[+palatal]
ɛ > e / _K
ɛ > a
z ʑ ɣ ʁ > s ɕ x χ
f h > 0
V1V2 > V2
V: > V
y > 0 / _i
w y > g
l > ɢ
ɕ > ʃ
ɭ > z

feñ ɓɔɔn jeɣɛħ yaʔ > xɯɕ mon iχa yaʔ

Cañ ɗe ǂhiip n|ay hwaa hwaa yaʔ ḷur.
N|ay ŋa xɛ ŋwe ŋa ǂhiip ɨx Cañ.
Khwɨ. Khwɨ. Khwɨ. Khwɨ. Khwɨ. Khwɨ. Khwɨ.

>

ʃte ne ʃip ne o o gaʔ zɯ
ne ŋa xa ŋʌ ŋa ʃip ʔɯx ʃte
xo xo xo xo xo xo xo

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:52 pm 
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Moistaneous wrote:
ʃte ne ʃip ne o o gaʔ zɯ
ne ŋa xa ŋʌ ŋa ʃip ʔɯx ʃte
xo xo xo xo xo xo xo


All diachronic roads lead to Jaba the Hutt?

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