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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:02 am 
Sumerul
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Reworking sound changes since I changed the PPH phonology. Work in progress.

Before I continue, I need to clean up the phonology.

Consonants:
p t c k (ʔ)
b d j g (h)
m n ɲ ŋ
f s h
l y w
ʘ | ǁ ǂ nʘ n| nǁ nǂ

Vowels:
a e o i u + length
ai au oi eu

Phonotactics:
Syllable structure is CV. Could be analyzed as (C)V, with null vowels ejecting ʔ if glottalized and h otherwise.
Most roots are CVCV. Some are CV. No CVCVCV or above.
Clicks can only occur word-initially.

Vowel modifiers:
1. Retroflexion [ret] of the vowel, turning preceding alveolars into retroflexes. Does not appear after palatal consonants. Written with a following <r>.
2. Retraction [RTR] on the vowel, lowering and backing it and backing (velarizing or pharyngealizing) the preceding consonant. Does not appear after palatal consonants. Written with an underdot or grave.
3. Glottalization [glot] of the vowel and the preceding consonant. Does not appear after nasals or nasal clicks. Written with a circumflex.

Diachronics:

1. First uvular lowering.
ọi ẹu > ại ạu / [vel]_

2. First palatalization.
c j > ts y
[cor] [vel] > [pal] / _{a e i ai}[-RTR][-ret], sometimes _er
[lab] > [lab]ʲ / _{a e i ai}[-RTR][-ret] # except w, maybe
[lab][-ʲ] > [lab]ʷ

3. Backing effects.
| > ! / _V[ret]
l > ḷ / _V[ret] _V[high][RTR]
h > ħ / _V[ret]

4. Modifier harmony. (Note that retroflexion doesn't spread.)
V[-ret -RTR -glot] > V[RTR] / _CV[RTR]
V[-ret -RTR -glot] > V[glot] / _C[-plosive]V[glot]

V[-long] > 0 / _#
V[long] > V[-long] / _#.

5. Loss of glottalization.
V[glot] > ʔV
p t c k ʘ | ! ǁ ǂ > pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ ʘʰ |ʰ !ʰ ǁʰ ǂʰ
Cʰ > C / _#
ʔb ʔd ʔj ʔg > ɓ ɗ y ɣ
ʔl ʔy ʔw > ɬ ɕ fʷ
ʔ > 0
Cʰ > C / an adjacent syllable is stressed and has an aspirated consonant

6. Esh fronting.
ɕ > s / _V[ret] _V[RTR]
f > fʷ / _V[RTR]
f > fʲ
u > i / ɕ_

7. Uvular frication.
k kʰ g > x x ɣ / V_V[RTR] (regardless of aspiration)

8. Retroflex backing.
ẹ > ə̣ / [cor]_
ẹẹ > ə̣ə̣y / [cor]_#
ẹẹ > ə̣ə̣ / [cor]_

9. Retraction mergers.
ị ụ > ɨy ɨw / {[vel] h}_ _#
ạ ẹ ọ ị ụ ə̣ > a ɛ ɔ ɨ u ə
ại ạu ọi ẹu > ɛɛ ɔɔ ɨɨ ɨɨ
ạạ ẹẹ ọọ > aa ɛɛ ɔɔ
ịị ụụ > ɨɨ ɨɨ

10. Final frication.
g > ɣ / _#

*sukạạ > suxa (suka)
*fene > fʲeñ (feñ)
*mʘetu > mʘʲet (mʘet)
*|âpa > ǂapʲ (!ap)
*mojâ > moy (moɕ)
*gûûhụ > ɣuuħ (ɣooħ)
*tẹmi > tʰəmʲ (tɛm)
*se > ɕe (ɕe)
*ŋugô > ŋuɣ (ŋuɣ)
*gûlụụ > ɣuḷɨw (ɣuḷu)

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:31 am 
Sumerul
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Putting this here so I don't lose it

18:20 < Serafin> You wish [that] [these books] existed
18:21 < Nortaneous> i'm trying to figure out how that would translate into proto-hathic
18:21 < Nortaneous> and i think it would have the definite article three times
18:21 < Nortaneous> DEF.PL book DEF.PL you do wish DEF.PL exist
18:23 < Nortaneous> relative clause structure develops differently in cherun and ngmwragh
18:23 < Nortaneous> cherun drops the first article, ngmwragh drops the second
18:24 < Nortaneous> both languages i think turn serial verbs into one block and move the object to the end
18:25 < Nortaneous> which would get messy with subjectized constructions but i'll think about that later
18:25 < Nortaneous> ngmwragh also pro-drops like a motherfucker
18:25 < Nortaneous> so it'd be like
18:25 < Nortaneous> DEF.PL=book you do wish exist
18:25 < Nortaneous> which is... basically like english
18:25 < Nortaneous> except 'you' is also optional

18:27 < Nortaneous> ... i need an etymology for ngmwragh
18:27 < Nortaneous> since i am pretty sure i can't get three-consonant clusters in roots
18:28 < Nortaneous> ngm- could be either an article or a word for 'language'... but probably article
18:29 < Nortaneous> if i descend arve from ngmwragh that'd be a good way to get rid of articles like i'd need to... but arve has fuckhuge substrate influence soooo
18:30 < Nortaneous> anyway cherun would have something like book DEF.PL you do wish DEF.PL exist and relative clauses are marked by switching the order of the article and the noun!

00:38 < Nortaneous> ngmwragh went from syllabary to logography
00:38 < Nortaneous> because it doesn't allow polysyllabic words
00:39 < Nortaneous> so it writes clusters with conjuncts
00:39 < Nortaneous> that then got cursivified into logographs
00:40 < Nortaneous> so the name of the language, ngmwragh
00:40 < Nortaneous> was originally written as mu + ra + ghV
00:40 < Nortaneous> but monosyllabification
00:40 < Nortaneous> plus u turned to w so that had to be written
00:41 < Nortaneous> or maybe it'd be better to preserve the
00:41 < Nortaneous> so like ngmwragh would be mo conjunct + ra + ghu conjunct
00:41 < Nortaneous> er, ngmragh
00:41 < Nortaneous> and ngmwragh would be mu conjunct + ra + ghu conjunct
00:41 < Nortaneous> but that eventually developed into its own logograph
00:42 < Nortaneous> i think there was a natscript that turned into a logography
00:42 < Nortaneous> something middle eastern iirc
00:42 < Nortaneous> words just got slurred into lines
00:43 < Nortaneous> oh man what if i make ngmwragh the big empire thing
00:43 < Nortaneous> and cherun just develop into hathic
00:44 < Nortaneous> idk how that'd work out for arve tho i have to fit that into this fuckin
00:44 < Nortaneous> could maybe just be its own branch of proto-hathic
00:44 < Nortaneous> yeah i'd have to
00:44 < Nortaneous> since i need big final clusters not big initial clusters
00:44 < Nortaneous> so stress shift first
00:44 < Nortaneous> cherun and ngmwragh have big initial clusters
00:44 < Nortaneous> cherun doesn't even *allow* finals

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:28 am 
Sumerul
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An example of derivational morphology:

*gehọ 'command' :>
ɣɛħ 'order'
jeɣɛħ NMZ~rule 'one who rules'

Reduplication is highly irregular, and it's beginning to become unproductive. The form above comes from *gegehọ; the retraction on the final vowel spread to the penultimate vowel, but not the first one.

ɓɔɔn jeɣɛħ yaʔ be_like NMZ~rule do_to 'rule'
feñ ɓɔɔn jeɣɛħ yaʔ pick_up be_like NMZ~rule do_to 'begin to rule, ascend to power'
!ə ŋɨɨ !ə feñ ɓɔɔn jeɣɛħ yaʔ CLF event CLF pick_up be_like NMZ~rule do_to 'ceremony heralding the advent of a new ruler'

Regular process for V>N derivation. It's really a relative clause.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:54 pm 
Sumerul
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Changing the name of Proto-Hathic to Gehui, from !ə!hɨɨy 'it is spoken'.

And I just realized that the derivation above is wrong, since all verbs are supposed to be in the middle voice... maybe reduplication will lexicalize irregularly, so sometimes it forms the active and sometimes the passive. Is that attested?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:10 pm 
Sumerul
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I don't want this to die and I also don't want to start another scratchpad for Miar so here goes.

Proto-Miar and its development -- I'm not going to work this out very far, for the semantics or anything, it's just so I get the morphophonology down

Proto-Miar had the following inventory:
/p t̪ t tɬ k ʔ/
/b d̪ d l g/
/f θ s ɬ x h/
/m n̪ n ŋ/
/ɾ̪ r j w/
/a aː e eː o oː i iː ə əː u uː/

Harmony processes:
Word-level height harmony: a~ə e~i o~u
Dental/alveolar harmony: in S1S2, if S2 has a dental consonant in its onset then alveolar consonants in S1 become dental and vice versa -- repeating but broken by an intervening syllable with neither

The two rhotics only contrast in certain conditions; only /r/ appears word-finally and only /ɾ̪/ appears after a consonant.

Retroflex and palatal consonants appear:
* in loanwords from surrounding languages
* from certain clusters -- Proto-Miar allowed for complex onsets, and Miar doesn't
* t̪ə: > ʈə:, ti: > ci:

Complex onsets were always of the form Cr or Cj. pr t̪r kr > ʈ ʈ q, pj t̪j tj kj > tj (or maybe w?) tj cj cj, then the harmony process spread to include retroflexes and palatals (is this plausible?), then once front rounded vowels develop they turn to back rounded vowels after retroflexes and vice versa after palatals

Todo: longer translations to figure out possible morphophonological shit

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:29 pm 
Sumerul
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bump, can a mod move this to C&C so it doesn't die?

edit: so this post isn't completely useless, more derivational stuff, deriving 'smell' and 'sense of smell'

16:47 < Nortaneous> oh wait the reduplication thing is already irregular in derivation
16:48 < Nortaneous> *dạạ 'smell' (noun) > *dạdạạ 'smell like' (verb)
16:48 < Nortaneous> er, dadạạ
16:49 < Nortaneous> which gives daa, jadaa
16:49 < Nortaneous> would probably have some odd circumlocution for the sense of smell
16:51 < Nortaneous> !horŋ 'sense', i don't have enough rhotic vowels
16:52 < Nortaneous> i don't have a continuative aspect verb, what can i derive one from
16:53 < Nortaneous> Thry: coronals palatalize before a but not before ạ, then ạ merges into a
16:53 < Nortaneous> what's a good transitive verb to make into a continuous aspect marker
16:53 < Nortaneous> or progressive or whatever
16:54 < Nortaneous> 'wear' would be good, and since i am not feeling creative right now that can be 'ber'
16:57 < Nortaneous> so 'sense of smell' would be !ə ber !horŋ daa
16:58 < Nortaneous> DEF CONT sense scent

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:14 pm 
Sumerul
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Aspect and definiteness in Miar, from the generics TC.

----

I'm glossing specific and generic as SP and G.

If a specific, previously mentioned soldier is killing a specific, previously mentioned dragon, for the good of my village, and I know this because I heard about it from someone else, it'd be: (loaning 'dragon')

Malic̣hapüchjirʔ zonl ṛakho.
[maɮiʂapʼyçˈɟirʔ dˤõɮ ɽaˈkʰo]
mal-I-c̣hA-ü-c̣h-jir-ʔ zonl-0 ṛakho-0
CAUS-PFV-C1.P-REPORT.PRES-C1.A-die-BEN.1 soldier-DEF dragon-DEF

If a specific but not previously mentioned soldier is killing a specific but not previously mentioned dragon, for the etc etc etc,:

Malic̣hapüchjirʔ zonls ṛakhos.
[maɮiʂapʼyçˈɟirʔ dˤõɮtsʼ ɽaˈkʰotsʼ]
mal-I-c̣hA-ü-c̣h-jir-ʔ zonl-s ṛakho-s
CAUS-PFV-C1.P-REPORT.PRES-C1.A-die-BEN.1 soldier-SP.INDEF dragon-SP.INDEF

If I've heard that some soldier or other is off killing some dragon or other to save my village:

Malic̣hapüchjirʔ zonlï ṛakhoʔï.
[maɮiʂapʼyçˈɟirʔ dˤõˈɮɜ ɽakʰoˈʔɜ]
mal-I-c̣hA-ü-c̣h-jir-ʔ zonl-ä ṛakho-ä
CAUS-PFV-C1.P-REPORT.PRES-C1.A-die-BEN.1 soldier-G.INDEF dragon-G.INDEF

These can be mixed. So if I've been talking about the soldier and I'm just now getting to the part where I mention that he's killing a dragon, I'd say malic̣hapüchjirʔ zonl ṛakhos.

If it's just a generic statement, there are a few different things that can happen. Miar doesn't draw as strict a line between specific and generic as English does. If, say, I'm explaining to my family that I'm a soldier, so at some point I'll have to go off and kill the dragon that's threatening our village, because that's what soldiers do, they kill dragons -- that is, if I'm referring to a specific instance of soldiers killing dragons, but it's not *directly* relevant, it'd be:

Malñoc̣hagünchjirʔ zonlï ṛakhoʔï.
[maɮɲoʂagỹçˈɟirʔ dˤõˈɮɜ ɽakʰoˈʔɜ]
mal-ñïw-c̣hA-güm-c̣h-jir-ʔ zonl-ä ṛakho-ä
CAUS-EXP.PFV-C1.P-SENS.FUT-C1.A-die-BEN.1 soldier-G.INDEF dragon-G.INDEF

But if I'm just stating as a general principle that soldiers kill dragons... the benefactive is usually left off when talking about non-specific actions, which is why I was trying to get one on earlier. I could either use the habitual or the dynamic aspect, depending on how common dragons are: if dragons are a rare event, it'd be the dynamic; if not, the habitual. I'll assume dragons aren't very common. Neither aspect takes an evidentiality marker.

Malnachachjir zonlï ṛakhoʔï.
[matɬʼnaçaçˈɟir dˤõˈɮɜ ɽakʰoˈʔɜ]
mal-ʔna-c̣hA-c̣h-jir zonl-ä ṛakho-ä
CAUS-DYN-C1.P-C1.A-die soldier-G.INDEF dragon-G.INDEF

If dragons aren't real, then I'm referring to something that's not definitely going to happen, so the aspect also drops.

Malchachjir zonlï ṛakhoʔï.
[maɮçaçˈɟir dˤõˈɮɜ ɽakʰoˈʔɜ]
mal-c̣hA-c̣h-jir zonl-ä ṛakho-ä
CAUS-C1.P-C1.A-die soldier-G.INDEF dragon-G.INDEF

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:11 pm 
Sumerul
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argh dammit i've gotten nothing done recently

maybe if i publicly announce that i am starting a germlang set in alt-history pembrokeshire with welsh influence that will get me to do shit, and also save this thread from pruning

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:11 pm 
Sumerul
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whoops

Vʼëng

/p t s~tʃ k ʔ/ <p t c k ʼ>
/b d z~dʒ/ <b d z>
/pʼ tʼ tʃʼ kʼ/ <pʼ tʼ cʼ kʼ>
/f s̺ x h/ <f s x h>
/fʼ tsʼ kʟʼ kxʼ/ <fʼ sʼ klʼ xʼ>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/β r j ɣ gʟ/ <v r y g gl>
/a ɛ ɔ ɪ ʊ i u/ <a e o ë ö i u>

Diachronically, most words were sesquisyllabic: they had a minor syllable, consisting of a one-consonant initial and the vowel ə, and a major syllable of the form CV(C), although some words had an extra final vowel, giving CVCV. A monosyllabization process deleted the vowel of the initial and the extra vowel of disyllabic words, after creating two extra vowels through feature spread: CaCi gave CɛC, CaCu gave CɔC, and e o became ɪ ʊ before a final i or u. dZ > j word-finally, but before monosyllabization. The sequences /ej oj ew ow/ also became ɪ ɪ ʊ ʊ. Plosives in the preinitial lenited to fricatives, and /h/ dropped.

Glottal stops in the preinitial dropped and turned following consonants to ejectives, and plosives (or gʟ) in the preinitial turned to ejectives before a glottal stop -- so the protoforms *ʔəsu and *səʔu merged as sʼu. l > gl (or > r in *bl *dl), which then > g intervocalically or after a syllable containing gl. Voiced stops here used to be prenasalized, and ngg turned to ng as in Japanese; protolang voiced stops fricated or turned to r.

Two example verb conjugations:

Code:
  sg    pl     sg       pl       |   sg      pl         sg           pl
1 xʼam  xʼom   xʼaŋxam  xʼaŋxom  | 1 ʔə-xam  ʔə-xam-u   ʔə-xam~xam   ʔə-xam~xam-u
2 ŋxam  ŋxom   ŋxaŋxam  ŋxaŋxom  | 2 nə-xam  nə-xam-u   nə-xam~xam   nə-xam~xam-u
3 xam   xom    xaŋxam   xaŋxom   | 3    xam     xam-u      xam~xam      xam~xam-u
                                 |                     
  sg    pl     sg       pl       |   sg      pl         sg           pl
1 klʼe  klʼö   klʼeg    klʼegö   | 1 ʔə-re   ʔə-re-w    ʔə-re~re     ʔə-re~re-w
2 ŋgle  ŋglö   ŋgleg    ŋglegö   | 2 nə-re   nə-re-w    nə-re~re     nə-re~re-w
3 gle   glö    gleg     glegö    | 3    re      re-w       re~re        re~re-w
                                 |                       
  sg    pl     sg       pl       |   sg      pl         sg           pl
1 tʼu   tʼu    tʼur     tʼur     | 1 ʔə-du   ʔə-du-w    ʔə-du~du     ʔə-du~du-w
2 ndu   ndu    ndur     ndur     | 2 nə-du   nə-du-w    nə-du~du     nə-du~du-w
3 ru    ru     rur      rur      | 3    du      du-w       du~du        du~du-w
                                 |
  sg    pl     sg       pl       |   sg      pl         sg           pl
1 kʼi   kʼiz   kʼizgi   kʼizgiz  | 1 ʔə-giz  ʔə-giz-u   ʔə-giz~giz   ʔə-giz~giz-u
2 ŋgi   ŋgiz   ŋgizgi   ŋgizgiz  | 2 nə-giz  nə-giz-u   nə-giz~giz   nə-giz~giz-u
3 gi    giz    gizgi    gizgiz   | 3    giz     giz-u      giz~giz      giz~giz-u


There are two forms of the verb: the minor form (citation form), and the major form, formed by reduplication, minus final vowel in CV roots but vowel was inserted before plural -w (~ -u) affix. Monophthongization of mid vowel + approximant series must have happened after vowel dropping.

The major form began as a superlative form, but shifted semantically to cover telicity, and then benefactive function. Fill in later.

The possible preinitial consonants are p t c k ʼ f s x h m n v y.
v y metathesize with the following consonant: y- + peng > pyeng. y can't occur after palatals; v can't occur after labials.
ʼ is always written as if it metathesizes with the following vowel, but phonetically it doesn't: vʼëng is [ʔβɪŋ].
p t c k are only contrastive before approximants; they debuccalize to ʼ in all other environments.
h is written as if it metathesizes. It aspirates voiceless consonants and devoices nasals, at least for older speakers; for younger speakers its main phonetic effect is giving the syllable rising tone. Word-final h merges with preinitial h for younger speakers.
f x only appear before stops and nasals. Younger speakers merge them with h.
m n merge for all but the oldest speakers, and don't contrast before labials.

The only clusters in the protolang were my by br dr. sv- > f. my by > n z when redup.

Word order: VSO~SVO. Prepositional. N-Adj. Aux-Adv-V. N of G possessive order, except with locational possessives, which are always N of L. Possessive person marking (only for inalienables + location) appears on N except for location markers, where it appears on L.

Collective vs plural distinction. Collectives take singular.

Tower of Babel:

Yëʼ e s yah gö ru s vëng mka.
[jɪʔ e sjǎ ɣʊ ɾu fɪŋ mka]
yëʼ e s=yah gev ru s=vëng mka
world of 3POSS=whole PST have 3POSS=language one
Now the whole world had one language.

ʼA theng gö ʼoc leg, ʼa xë s re e Sinar, ʼa sitsir ga.
[ʔa tɛ̌ŋ ɣʊ ʔɔʃ gʟɛɣ ʔa xɪ zɾɛ ɛ ˈsinað ʔa sitsið ɣa]
ʼa h-teng gev ʼ-oc le~g, ʼa xë s re e Sinar, ʼa sir~sir ga
then COLL-man PST ADV-east move~MAJ, then find plain of Shinar, then settle~MAJ there
As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

Theng veng zi, "Hë ca vʼa rig, hë ca pʼyuz." Myan rig öng nha, myan dur öng ntë.
[tɛ̌ŋ βɛŋ dʒi hɪ tʃa ʔβa ɾiɣ hɪ tʃa pʼjuʒ mjan ɾiɣ ʊŋ nǎ mjan duð ʊŋ ntɪ]
h-teng veng zi, hë ca ʼ-va rig, hë ca ʼ-byu~by. mya~my rig öng nha, myan dur öng ntë
COLL-man say REFL, COLL JUSS 1-make brick, COLL JUSS 1-bake~MAJ. use~MAJ brick against rock, use~MAJ tar against mortar
They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.

ʼA veng, "Hë ca vʼo zi brö, hë ca brö e s të vʼo tog a me lele zeng rëʼ. Ö hë me ???
[ʔa βɛŋ hɪ tʃa ʔβɔ dʒi bɾʊ hɪ tʃa bɾʊ ɛ stɪ ʔβɔ tɔɣ a mɛ gʟɛgʟɛ dʒɛŋ ɾɪʔ ʊ hɪ mɛ]
ʼa veng, hë ca ʼ-va~v zi brö, hë ca brö e s=të ʼ-va~v tog a me laz~laz zeng rëʼ. ö hë me ???
then say, COLL JUSS 1-make~MAJ REFL wall, COLL JUSS wall of 3POSS=inside 1-make~MAJ tower 3S FUT extend_toward sky. thus COLL FUT ???
Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.
6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
9 That is why it was called Babel3—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

I have no idea what "so that we may make a name for ourselves" is supposed to mean so I will just post this as is and probably skip it and finish later w/e

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:42 pm 
Sanno
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This looks pretty cool.

Nortaneous wrote:
I have no idea what "so that we may make a name for ourselves" is supposed to mean
"so that we may become famous", I believe.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:38 pm 
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Gonna go ahead and skip that until I feel like developing the culture enough to get a good expression for it.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.
ʼO Kom pʼra leg, zi brö, zi tog së ndë theng vo.
ʼo Kom ʼ-bra le~g, zu~y brö, zu~y tog së ndë h-teng va~v
but Lord ADV-down move~MAJ, see~MAJ wall, see~MAJ tower REL REL.OBJ COLL-man build~MAJ

is the general relative marker, but different relative pronouns are used based on whether the referent is the subject (nda, which may take irregular rising tone as if it were ndah, although I don't think I'd allow words with a preinitial and coda like that) or object (ndë) of the sentence. Historically it was used as a general associative particle, but was contracted to s in that function, reappearing as before words with preinitials.

Also, non-glottal stops can't appear in codas, so I suppose I should be analyzing c z as fricatives, even though c patterns with stops in being allowed in preinitials... or they could just be a separate affricate class w/e

Note on the major verbs in this sentence: gods always take major verbs, as do kings and Great Heroes or whatever; vo not va because building such a large tower is a major effort -- the benefactive aspect of major verbs is also in play, and younger speakers would say së ndë theng zi vo, the tower the men were building themselves; remember that it was benefactive earlier.

Glottal stop forms adverbs from nouns, nothing else, definitely not verbs since that'd overlap with person marking

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:03 pm 
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And since I'm incapable of working on only one thing at a time, here's that Anglic conlang I was talking about.

West Saxons conquer bits of Wales in ~700 AD (so before the merger of /iu/ into /eo/), get cut off from the rest of the English speakers, some Welsh influence, generally like Yola.

Begin with Old English. Inventory:

/p b t d tʃ (dʒ) k ɣ/ (writing ɣ as g)
/f θ s/ + voiced allophones
/ʃ h/
/m n/
/l r j w/

/æ a e o i y u/ + length
/ea eo io ie/ + length (the precise interpretation doesn't really matter)

Numerals:
a:n twa: θriu: feo:wor fi:f siks seovon eahta nijon tie:n

700 - 1600

e o > ɛ ɔ (this was probably already the case)

Diphthong loss:
ea > a / _lC _rC
ea ea: eo eo: > ɛ a: ɛ e: / w_
ea ea: > ɛ ja:
eo eo: > jɔ jo:
io io: > jɔ ju:
ie ie: > ɨ ɨː, sporadic merger of short ie into y esp. around labials

æ æ: æ(:)j > a ɛ: e(:)j
i > 0 / _jV
ɛ: e: > ɔi: wɨ: / _lC _rC _h _ng
wɨ: > ɨ: / [+lab]_ [+pal]_
wɨ: > u: / CCC_
tj sj > tʃ ʃ
ɨ > i / [+pal]_

m > n / _# in unstressed syllables

V: > V / _C{:,C} ! _st{#,V}
V > V: / sP θP lt

Numerals: a:n twa: θrju: fjo:wor fi:f siks ʃo:von jahta njon tɨːn

1100 - 1700:

y(:) > e(:) / _(n)g

ɣ loss
ɣ > 0 / #_ (sporadic), #g

ɣ > ə̯ / {l r}_#
ə̯ > v / [+round]+_ in monosyllables (i.e. when the vowel of the preceding syllable was round)
V[-diphthong]+ə̯ > Vj (i.e. ə̯ > j, which then metathesizes onto the end of the vowel of the preceding syllable if said vowel was a monophthong)
ə̯ > 0
ɣ > j / V[+front]_V VC_V[+front]
ɣ > w / V[-front]_V VC_V[-front]

I-mutation:
0 > j / V[-front]_+i
jV[-stress] > i / C_
j w > 0 / C_V[-stress]

Glide+vowel simplification:
V(:)vV V(:)wV > V(:)u / _C _#
V(:)jV > V(:)j / _C _#

L-vocalization:
l > w / _C

Diphthong simplification:
eu: iu iu: > ɛu: ju ju:
ou: > ɔu:
w > 0 / _u
j > 0 / _i

Yod breaking:
ju(:) > i(:)u / Cr_ CCC_
j > ij / Cr_ CCC_
ijǝ > i:

e: > ɛi:
a ɛ ɔ > oə eə ɔu / _[+stress]N
oə eə > ɔ i

Disyllabic stress shift: 'CVCV > CV'CV. Sporadic when no final C, universal when final C. Attested more regularly in Yola, which showed (semi?)regular final stress -- *after* vowel reduction. Doesn't happen if first C is a cluster or if first vowel is long.
Trisyllabic stress shift from initial to penultimate. Should be fairly regular but this might happen later.

Vowel reduction:
All short vowels in unstressed syllables > ǝ. All long vowels in unstressed syllables shorten. Diphthongs coalesce; will figure this out if I have to.

Length confusion:
Diphthongs lose contrastive vowel length.
Consonants lose length entirely. Voiceless fricatives now contrast with voiced.

w > 0 / C_V[+back]
v > w / _(C)#
jǝ ǝj > i

Numerals: a:n twa: θriu fjɔur fi:f siks ʃɔun jahtǝ njon tɨːn

1600-2013: (after spelling began to be standardized, although older conventions can, of course, carry over)

Sporadic final loss of grammatical -n.

Yod loss:
j > 0 / V_{ŋ rk rg}
lj > j / C_

f s > v z / #_

ɛ ɛ: > i ɛi / _ŋ _[+pal]
ɛ > i / _nC

g > 0 / ŋ_
mb nt nd > m n n / V[-stress]_

y loss:
y y: > ɨu / _# _x
y y: > i i: / _[+pal] _nC
y y: > ɨ ɨ:

w > v / #_C

hw > f (welsh loans with xw should be borrowed as with hw so xw shouldn't occur)
dw kw > b f
hm hn hŋ hr hj > m n ŋ r j (hŋ shouldn't occur ever in the first place)
r > ʃ / _P[-voice]

Epenthesis:
0 > ə / C_{r l n} {l r}_{m v} ð_v (stolen verbatim from the Welsh rule)

sP > Ps / _# (sporadic, in many cases existing since before the OE-WE split)

TODO: weird length shit like trisyllabic laxing and book-blood; mergers before l and r; more weird metathesis shit; h-dropping; th-dropping as Cardiff?; presumably some eventual English influence

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:10 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Pronouns.

Applying the sound changes gives:

Code:
1.   Sg     Pl
Nom ī      wē
A/D mē     ūs
Gen mī     ūr
2.   
Nom thū    yē
A/D thē    you
Gen thī    your
3m.   
Nom hē     hɨ̄
Acc hin    hɨ̄
Gen his    hɨr
Dat him    him
3f.
Nom hyo    hyō
Acc hɨ̄     hyū
Gen hir    hyor
Dat hir    him
3n.
Nom hit    hɨ̄
Acc hit    hɨ̄
Gen his    hɨr
Dat him    him


But that's boring. What can be done with it?

First of all, /hj/ palatalizes to /S/. This helps to keep the pronouns distinct.

Some things will get conflated. Third person neuter already only contrasts with masculine in nom./acc. sg. I think there are some dialects that conflate the two entirely; may as well do the same here.

Grammatical /n/ drops, sure, but it can reoccur before vowels. This will probably cause n-transfer onto vowel-initial words commonly preceded by possessives -- that almost happened with 'uncle' in English. Third-person datives stop contrasting for number. I'm not sure yet if I want h-dropping reflected in the writing system; probably not.

Third-person accusative 'hin' is protected from n-dropping by the following vowel in the OE form 'hine'. If it were to drop, it'd merge almost entirely with the first-person nominative. Don't know if I want that. Instead, the n will generalize onto the plural.

Also, there are clitic forms of the nominative, which can merge with vowel- or h-initial verbs; clitic forms of the dative, which attach to prepositions; and clitic forms of the genitive, which develop as possessives exactly as they did in English ('the king of France his book' and so on) but end up distinguishing gender. These don't develop for the first-person pronouns except for the nominative because obvious ambiguity.

I'll present them in the orthography this time.

Code:
    Standalone    Conjunct
1.  Sg     Pl     Sg     Pl
Nom y      wee    tj'    w'
A/D mee    ws     
Gen my     wr
2.   
Nom thw    yee    th'    y'
A/D thee   you    'th    'y
Gen thy    your
3m/n.   
Nom hee    hye    h'     h'
Acc hin    hyen
Gen his    hier   's     'r
Dat him    him    'm     'm
3f.
Nom scho   schoo  sch'   sch'
Acc schye  schw
Gen hir    schor  'r     'r
Dat hir    hir    'r     'r


For example, take the sentence "I gave the queen's book to y'all". First, note that 'give' is a Norse loan, inherited after this lang split from English; the native word is gefan. (The i in giefan is a spelling convention; it was /je:fan/.) The preterite was geaf-geafe-geaf; these all level to yau.) Anyway:

Y yau the queen'r book too'y.
I gave the queen=3.SG.F.GEN book to=2.PL.ACC
[iː jau̯ ðə kweːnər boːk toi̯]

As for definite articles: ze M/N nom, sche F nom (NB: /(d)Z@/), the nom pl / acc.

Thinking about redoing the orthography to replace most <sch>s with <si>s. Actually I think I will do that. So zie F nom and
Code:
3f.
Nom sio    sioo  sch'   sch'
Acc siye   siw
Gen hir    sior  '(e)r  '(e)r
Dat hir    hir    '(e)r  '(e)r


Not sure about <siye> though. Maybe <ie ye> reduce to <i y> after <i>...?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:27 pm 
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A posteriori is hard, back to V'eng

6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.

6.
Kom vengveng, "Theng mka ru vëng mka zi geh vo, mya s rig e theng me brux.
Kom veng~veng, "h-teng mka ru vëng mka zi geh va-u, mya=s brick e h-teng me brux.
Lord say~MAJ, "COLL-man one POSS language one REFL INCHO make-3S, NEG=POSS brick POSS COLL-man FUT fail

7.
Ca sʼö, ca xunxun vëng e theng, pʼo vu zi."
ca ʼ-sö, ca xun~xun vëng e h-teng, pʼo vi~v zi
JUSS ADV-depth, JUSS split~MAJ language POSS COLL-man, CAUS understand~MAJ REFL

8.
ʼA pʼo ʼuʼ theng zo ëc e s ta, pʼo ʼuʼ yah e s drer, ʼa mëh vov brö.
ʼa pʼo ʼu~ʼ h-teng zo ëc e s=ta, pʼo ʼu~ʼ yah e s=drer, then mëh va~v-u
then CAUS scatter~MAJ COLL-man there POSS 3S.POSS=outside, CAUS scatter~MAJ whole POSS 3S.POSS=to, then INCHO.NEG build~MAJ-PL wall

so

Yëʼ e s yah gö ru s vëng mka. ʼA theng gö ʼoc leg, ʼa xë s re e Sinar, ʼa sitsir ga. Theng veng zi, "Hë ca vʼa rig, hë ca pʼyuz." Myan rig öng nha, myan dur öng ntë. ʼA veng, "Hë ca vʼo zi brö, hë ca brö e s të vʼo tog a me lele zeng rëʼ. ʼO Kom pʼra leg, zi brö, zi tog së ndë theng vo. Kom vengveng, "Theng mka ru vëng mka zi geh vo, mya s rig e theng me brux. Ca sʼö, ca xunxun vëng e theng, pʼo vu zi." ʼA pʼo ʼuʼ theng zo ëc e s ta, pʼo ʼuʼ yah e s drer, ʼa mëh vov brö.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Vʼëng in an adaptation of the Gehui semi-syllabary*, which is presumably what would be used to write it.

* vowels used to be written with diacritics but fused with the characters

I fucked up at least one syllable (he ʼe should read he ye) but

ye ʼi ʼe sə ya ha go vo ru sə ve ŋe mə ka
ʼa the ŋe go vo ʼo co le ~ ʼa xe ye sə re
ʼe si na ra ʼa si ri ≈ ga the ŋe ve ŋe
zi he ye ca ʼə va ri gi he ye ca ʼə bə yu ≈ mə ya ≈ ri
gi ʼo ŋu hə na mə ya ≈ du ru ʼo ŋu nə te ye
ʼa ve ŋe he ye ca ʼə va ~ zi bə ro vo he ʼe
sə te ʼe va ~ to go a me le zə ≈ ze
ŋe re ʼi ʼo vo he ye me

~ ≈ = single and double reduplication


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:55 pm 
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And here it is in the first draft of the V'eng cursive script, derived from the above. I'm not sure what I was thinking with some of these character forms, but whatever.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:22 pm 
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because i need to bump this thread, i will state for the record the Correct way to begin a future english

o u > ɛu yu / EXCEPT _l
yu > y / _C
t > ts / _{ɪ i y(u)}
ɛ > ɪ / _N
æ ɛ > e / _ŋ
l > 0 / _{o u}
l > w / V_C
ə > 0 / #P_$V[+stress]
er or > ir ur
æ ɔ > eə oə
ai au aiə auə > a æ a æ
ɾ > 0 / V_V EXCEPT V_Vn (where it's realized as a glottal stop anyway)
nt nd > ~ʔ ~ / V_
r > ɾ / θ ð
ə > 0 / V_r

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:31 pm 
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True for all dialects?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:18 pm 
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mideastern AmE and fuck everything else

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:05 am 
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Intriguing. What are your sources for these? Are they derived from developments in your own dialect?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:43 pm 
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Ars Lande wrote:
Intriguing. What are your sources for these? Are they derived from developments in your own dialect?

Yes. er > ir is the only one that isn't already pretty much attested, and I don't think it's at all unlikely. I think the implicit location may be too far north for the pin-pen merger, but I don't know.

Further down the line, English could develop a tone contrast like the Scandinavian languages, from monosyllabic vs. originally disyllabic roots... so 'beer' vs. 'beater' could be [biɹ1 biɹ2], for whatever the tone ends up sounding like.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Tower of Babel in Pembrish. Mostly following the Old English version on Omniglot, just since it's less awkward. Italics give cognates.

I'm fucking with the orthography, so <yw wy> are <iu ui> now, and <w aa ee oo> are circumflexes.

Ze vroud haud oa riord, ond a som speetj.
[zə vrɔud haud wa rijord, ɔnd ə sɔm speːtʃ]
the.C world had one language, and a same speech.
* world had one *, and a same speech (lol how did i confuse reord with leod, fixed)

Ond foan h'uird ou the iast, vund hye a veud i ze lond Sienar.
[ɔnd fɔn fird ɔu ðə jast, vund hɨː ə vɛud i zə lɔnd ʃəˈnar]
and when they-came of the east, found they a field in the land Shinar.
and when * fered of the east, found * a field in the land Shinar

Hye zaid etiun hierzeu, "Wierketh ûs tiustâns* ond llosketh** ûs hyen thruch.
[hɨː zaid ətʃun hərˈzɛu, ˈwɨrkəθ uːs tʃuˈstaːns ɔnd ɬɔskəθ uːs hɨːn θrux]
they said between themselves, "work-PL us bricks and bake-PL us them through
* said between themselves, "work us tile-stones and * us * through
* Calqued from West Frisian. Replace later with a borrowing. What's the etymology of Welsh 'priddfaen'?
** Welsh borrowing, why not.

Will finish later; need to close tabs now.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:26 am 
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An introduction to the Hathic languages

The Hathic languages are the largest major group of languages in the as yet unnamed conworld, if the various dialects of Enzielu are not considered separate languages. The major Hathic languages are Hathe, with several million speakers on the isolated island Kethûnai and a literary tradition surpassing all others besides possibly that of Enzielu itself, and Arve, one of the two national languages of Harue; others include Kastas, spoken on the western coast of Enze; Gunaa, which underwent an early radical restructuring in both phonology and grammar due to heavy influence from V'eng, and which, due to its speakers' location on one of the major ports connecting the Hathic islands, introduced some of that influence, most notably in the form of extensive noun and verb modification through preinitials, to most other Hathic languages.

The earliest known ancestor of the Hathic languages is Gehui, or Proto-Hathic, described previously in this thread. Gehui had two main descendants, Cherun and Ngmwragh, which are most easily distinguished by the presence of coda consonants and clicks in the latter. The two retained mutual intelligibility for a long period of time, although largely one-sided in favor of speakers of the more conservative Ngmwragh, but most Hathic languages are clearly descended from Ngmwragh. Hathe itself is a notable exception, and even preserves the strictly CV syllable structure of its ancestor.

The phoneme inventory of Gehui is as follows:
/pʲ pʷ t c k ʔ/
/pʲʰ pʷʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ/
/bʲ bʷ d ɟ g/
/ɓʲ ɓʷ ɗ/
/ʘh |h !h ǁh ǂh/
/ʘ | ! ǁ ǂ/
/gʘ g| g! gǁ gǂ/
/ŋʘ ŋ| ŋ! ŋǁ ŋǂ/
/mʲ mʷ n ɲ ŋ/
/fʲ fʷ s ɕ x ħ h/
/l ʎ ɭ tɬ/
/j ɰ w/
/a e o i u/ + length and rhoticity contrasts

The symbols <ɛ ə ɔ ɨ> are used to indicate regular vowel correspondences between the dialects that would later become Cherun and Ngmwragh:
ɛ becomes ɛ in Cherun and a in Ngmwragh.
ɔ becomes a in Cherun and o in Ngmwragh.
ə becomes o in Cherun and ɤ in Ngmwragh.
ɨ becomes ɯ in Cherun and ɤ in Ngmwragh.

The voiced plosives were likely already pronounced as fricatives [vʲ vʷ z ʑ ɣ~ɰ] in Gehui; Ngmwragh reflects them as [v w r j ɣ], and Cherun has voiceless fricatives, [fʲ fʷ s ɕ x]. Although Ngmwragh has no voiced velar plosive, Cherun develops one from click loss.

Morphologically, syntactically, and lexically, the two languages remained largely, though not entirely, alike until their divergence into multiple languages, brought about in part by substantial Hathic moves to the mainland and the concomitant fall of the importance of the trade routes. Hathe, by this point, had already begun to diverge, as a higher register or code of Cherun used first by religious figures and magicians and then, after the fairly rapid subjugation of the agricultural Hathics by the emerging Kethûnic empire and substantial agricultural development programs on Kethûnai itself, by the elite. (A proper treatment of the rise of Hathe would require an exposition of the workings of the forgotten technologies which the Hathe unwittingly rediscovered and then claimed as magic, and explaining that would lead naturally to explaining both the rise of Kethûnai as a long-lived empire with power to rival even Enze and a political structure even more alien to the average reader than the continent-spanning Enzielu theocracy and the origins of life itself on the planet, so I won't get into that here.)

In general, descendants of Ngmwragh can be found on the mainland, and descendants of Cherun on the islands. There are two notable exceptions: Araso is the only Cherun descendant to be found on the mainland, spoken on a small peninsula in the far north of the Enze continent and having absorbed grammatical influence from both V'eng and the now-dead substrate languages that influenced the western dialects of Enzielu, and Arve, a Ngmwragh descendant, is spoken on Harue (to which its name is cognate), the second-largest of the islands, surpassed only by Kethûnai.

On to Cherun and Ngmwragh. Their phoneme inventories are given below:

Cherun:
/pʲ pʷ t tɬ c cʎ̥˔ k ʔ/
/pʲʰ pʷʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ/
/fʲ fʷ s ɬ ɕ ʎ̥˔ x h/
/mʲ mʷ n ɲ ŋ/
/w j l (r)/
/a e o i ɯ a˞ o˞ ɯ˞/
/a: ɛ: e: o: i: ɯ: a˞: e˞: o˞: ɯ˞:/
/ai~aɯ əi əɯ eə uə iə ɯə/
Vowels can take one of four phonations: modal, creaky, breathy, or nasal, descended from final nulls, stops, fricatives, and nasals respectively.

Ngmwragh:
/p t ts c k kp ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ kpʰ/
/ɓ ɗ/
/ʘh !h ǁh ǂh/
/ʘ! ǁ ǂ/
/ŋʘ ŋ! ŋǁ ŋǂ/
/v s ɕ ɣ ħ h/
/m n ɲ ŋ ŋm/
/l r j w/
/a ɤ o i ɯ a˞ ɤ˞ o˞/
/a: e: ɤ: o: i: ɯ: a˞: e˞: ɤ˞: o˞:/

Some correspondences are apparent: Ngmwragh has shifted the rounded labials of Gehui to labial-velars (although merely merging both varieties of the labial implosive), retains its coda consonants, and maintains the /ħ/ that diphthongized vowels in Cherun.

In grammatical terms: Ngmwragh simplifies Gehui's complex system of serial verbs, introducing conjunctions, mostly borrowed wholesale from V'eng, and grammaticalizing some verbs into preinitials, again patterned on the V'eng structures; the preinitials combine with already-existing tendencies in the language -- namely, the aftermath of syncope laws of somewhat surprising scope -- to allow for difficult consonant clusters such as that in the name. Also words can't be more than one syllable. It just doesn't happen.

Cherun borrows many conjunctions through Ngmwragh, although there they coexist with native conjunction strategies, and their number and frequency diminishes in many of its descendants.

From here, the Hathic languages can be divided into two groups: L-Hathic, which merge the inherited /l r/ phonemes, and R-Hathic, which maintain the distinction. L-Hathic languages, including Hathe and Araso (descended from Cherun) and Kanagy and Ketas (descended from Ngmwragh), simplify the phoneme inventory radically, much like the Polynesian languages on Earth -- Kanagy has only eight consonants! -- whereas R-Hathic languages simplify it only slightly, and often, as in Arve (21 vowels, 26 consonants), go on to expand it again. This divide has other applications: although VOS word order is not uncommon in either branch, it is far more common in R-Hathic languages; with the notable exception of the highly innovative Arve, R-Hathic languages tend less toward agglutinativity than L-Hathic ones; tone and stress are very rare in L-Hathic languages; L-Hathic languages preserve more of the aspectual system and less of the article system, and never use inflected articles to mark possession; and R-Hathic languages rarely mark number on nouns and have fewer, if any, serial verb constructions.

I'm tired of writing this post so I'm just going to dump inventories now.

L-Hathic:
Hathe:
/t k ʔ/
/s ð x h/
/m n/
/ʋ r j/
/a e o i ɨ u ɒ̙ ɛ̙ (ɔ̙) ɪ̙ ʊ̙/

Araso:
/p b t d tʃ dʒ k g/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/
/ʋ ɺ j/
/a e o i ɨ u/

Ketas:
/t c k ʔ/
/s ç x ʜ h/
/n r ʢ/
/a e ə i ã ẽ ə̃ ĩ/

Kanagy:
/t c k/
/ɸ s/
/m~ʋ n~r j/
/a e i~ɨ u ã ẽ ɨ̃/

R-Hathic:
Arve:
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ/
/p t ts tʂ c k/
/s ʂ ç x xʷ χ (h)/
/m n ŋ/
/ⱱ l j ʀ/ (note that /ʀ/ does *not* pattern as a rhotic)
/r̥ r/
/a e ɞ ʌ ɔ e ø ʊ i y u aɔ ʊi ɛa ɛɔ~eu ie yø uo ʌi øy ɔu/ (predictably, there is significant dialectal variance in the realization of the vowels; Northern Arve, influenced by Kett, which borders Arve territory to the north, merges many vowels, and the rural Southern dialects have a length contrast and no diphthongs)

Gunaa: (although it's R-Hathic, it merged /l r/ independently due to V'eng influence)
/p t ʈ tʃ k/
/b d ɖ dʒ/
/f s (z) ʃ (ʒ) x/
/m n ŋ/
/ʋ j ɰ r/
/a e o i u/ + syllabic /ʋ ʒ/

Kastas:
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ/
/p t c k/
/f ɬ s z ʀ/
/m n ŋ/
/j r/
/a e ə o i u/ (this will probably change later)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:35 am 
Avisaru
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cool beans

very cool beans

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:19 am 
Smeric
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Cool stuff.

So clicks get ultimately lost in all Hathic languages?

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