zompist bboard

I don't have time for this stuff anymore lmao

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

But it should not be lost like tears in the rain, so copy it to somewhere safe.

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...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A

Here is a Proto-Pannonian noun.

Before the first vowel shift:


I'm not happy with the first palatalization now, so I'll redo it.

0) tK > š (applies before satemization)
1) é > yə
2) Ky > Č
3) Kʷy > Ky
4) Ty > T́, but ts > ś
5) ry > r; clusters with r don't assimilate for palatalization
6) a > ə / _[-stress]${i u}
7) unC > ́ənC

And then:
* V[+round]mV[+round] > Ṽ:
* Vm# > Ṽ
* VNF > ṼF
* s > h
* ś > s
* h > 0 / _#
* o ō > a ā
* ts > s / _#

So:



Here's a similar noun with a 'thorn cluster':

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

And for an *eh2-stem...



The nominative, genitive, ablative, and instrumental singular have merged. This presents a problem. Pronoun cliticization as is supposed for English could be used, but this would require pronouns, and pronouns are difficult. What PIE forms produced the Slavic n-pronouns?

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Another option is to remodel the inflections based on other declensions.

Re: the n-pronouns in Slavic, good question. They're clearly of some antiquity, because they show up not only in East Slavic but also in South. (Dunno about West). However, they're not present in OCS, and they're not reconstructed for Proto-Slavic, at least according to The Dawn of Slavic by Schenker. On the other hand, Schenker doesn't even mention Winter's Law once in the whole book, so...

Indo-Iranian imported some elements from the n-stems into the thematics- so you have the o/ā-stem gen. pl. ending -ānām, from the n-stems, where you'd expect plain -ām. A lot of the oblique cases of the feminine ā-declension in Sanskrit inserted an -āy- extender (which I think is from the pronominals?), so you have e.g. gen. sg. -āyās.

Could always pull a Tocharian, I suppose...replace the instrumental with postposed *ḱom, so you'd get, what, -eh₂sḱom > -āsḱom > -āsą. (I should really get back to that IE lang...)

I'm a bit puzzled... with the n-pronouns, do you mean the forms that start in /n/ after prepositions? But these forms are are common Slavic and do exist in OCS. The /n/ originally was the final consonant of some preceding prepositions. But that's all Slavic historical linguistics 101, so that can't be what you're talking about? Or do you mean onъ, ona, ono? They're Balto-slavic, originally are demonstrative, and Derksen links them with the Greek modal particle an and Latin an "or", reconstructing *H2en-o-. Or do you mean something else entirely?

*-eh2sk'om > -āsḱom > PPan. -āhčų; that's one possibility

OK, here are some declensions, using the examples on Wikipedia. Also: o > a, but o: > o:, and short nasal o merges instead with nasal schwa. Another thing I might do is preserve the dual, analogizing endings out from the plural but extended by -a- ~ -ə-, possibly with epenthetic -m- from the dative and ablative...

Acrostatic root noun:

Note that the labiovelars are still around. There will be traces of them preserved, even though this is a satem language. (So the nominative and dative forms may end up looking like načč/načča/načči and njoččaj/njoččëmu/njočču or so.)

Also *i palatalizes immediately preceding coronals and dorsals.

Acrostatic lengthened root noun:

This is interesting. Note that syllabic n desyllabizes.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

é > yə except before *y; in that case e > a. let's say š > s rather than s' > s; however, š doesn't palatalize and instead deletes following y. so:

tK > š (applies before satemization)
éy > áy
é > yə
Ci > Ći except r š
Ky > Ḱ > Č
Kʷy > Ky
Ty > T́, but ts > ś
ry šy > r š
a > ə / _[-stress]${i u}
unC > ́ənC

V[+round]mV[+round] > Ṽ:
Vm# > Ṽ
VNF > ṼF
s > h
š > s
h > 0 / _#
o ǫ > a ə̨
ts > s / _#

And, why not:
VnV > V̨rV̨
nm ńḿ > n ń

So, an amphikinetic n-stem:

A hysterokinetic n-stem:

And a neuter s-stem, which is much better behaved:

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

The king and the god:

(actually, let's say palatovelars back to velars before /s/; also Kʷyə > Kʷyo > Kya; Kʷi > Ki)

Arḗks yət. Há unčuntá yət, hū́yú-kya krīp'it. Há tus'u b'ə́rtōrų pursəc'i: "Hū́yu may ǯun'ītá!" Há b'ə́rtōr tə̨ arḗkų ru w'ə́wkic'i, "Hūlčə́d'i c'iw'ā́y Aúhrāy."

*s disappears entirely from the copula, as it tends to do in inflections.
For krīp, cf. Baltic grib-.
Tus'u is assumed to be unstressed.
Not sure what the middle subjunctive will look like yet.
Maybe 'ask' should drift away from the accusative?
'Priest' could be from *kówh1e:s instead.
'King' is assumed to regularize from the nominative, which is an unusual development in most cases but is probably excusable here.
Ru < nu. Seems reasonable; tends to follow a vowel. Will turn into a prefix later.
'Pray' is from sl̥h₂-sḱ-ye-, backing up Armenian.
How realistic is it to preserve the *-di 2sg imperative?
'God' is from dyews; the metathesized form gives 'day'. 'Goddess' is derived from 'god'. Let's say Eostre attains significance in Pannonian religion; let's also say that Eostre and Jupiter were both associated with the sun, in different ways, and after Christianization produced the Pannonian names of the Father and the Holy Ghost. Why not? C'iw'ā́ is a backformation from the oblique stem c'iw'(ə).

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Another eh2-stem, naturally in a different order:

I must have gotten the accusative wrong somewhere. (I'm applying the changes from memory now, so maybe here.). *eh2ns > a:ns, not a:nus. Also let's say hiatus doesn't lead to diphthongization.

The eh2-stems will definitely need to borrow morphology from another stem class. Let's see about the o-stems:


Maybe the abl. sg. is -ā́s; Wikipedia's hiatus convention is bizarre but I forget how it's supposed to resolve. Latin has -ā, so let's go with that.

How about another feminine stem?

(also I forgot about ruki, so the loc. pl. is -su)

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Here is The Pronominal:



Also:

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

*nisdos


*werg'om


*h2ner (not sure about the geminate stuff)


could borrow from the plural of *werg'om for the sg of eh2-stems, so:

but it seems plausible that at least the loc. sg. would persist and be identical to the nom. pl.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Is the PIE ablative real, or is it secondary? Pannonian won't have it.

Here's the eh2-stem declension:


The feminine pronominal will borrow the genitive from the eh2-stem declension:

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

I am unconvinced that the PIE ablative is old (at least as a distinct case; Hittite does possess the category, but its marker is the clearly secondary *-ti)

Is there a difference between *oynos and *oywos? PP's numeral 'one' is from *oywos, mostly to be different without using *sem. The *-sr- feminines are retained, and spread to 'two', which was originally tsā́śi: *h1 was retained as *h (*dweh2h1e > *dwā́he), and palatalized. 'Six' is from *wek's, but *sek's and *swek's would both be śə́k.

áǯa (M) / áǯā (F) / áǯą (N)
tsṓ (M) / tsā́ši (F) / tsái (N)
tráyi (M) / ćī́ši (F) / trī́ (N)
kʷəttṓri (M) / kʷəććə́ši (F) / kʷəttṓr (N)
pyə́nči
wyə́k
śiptų́
aštṓw
eńə́wun
śə́čənt

As the sound changes are now, initial unstressed *o becomes a, but all other unstressed *o becomes u. Maybe this is bad.

In Standard Pannonian these would probably look like:

až/ažuo/ažo
cuu/ciäšuo/cää
čäje/čeišuo/čei
kyttyy/kuččuo/kuttuu
fäč
vjõch
sifti
aštuu
enjy
sičõn

Or something.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Probably, but what that was is hard to recover.

maybe *tw- *dw- *dhw- > p p b? or is this too Latin-like? another alternative is to have *dw- become f

Lithuanian innovated some cases due to Finnic influence:
- inessive: locative + -en ( < *h1en?)
- illative: accusative + -n(a) (< *h1en?)
- adessive: locative + -pie (< *h1epo?)
- allative: genitive + -pie (< *h1epo?)

This seems sensible, but I don't know why the allative takes the genitive, and I'd prefer *h2eu to *h1epo on aesthetic grounds... another option is to replace the locative with the dative and innovate a new locative:

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Perhaps they become linguolabial stops or fricatives that split between alveolar and labials.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

Perhaps it could be split according to the following vowel

I considered tw dw dhw > kʷ f gʷ, paralleling a (sporadic?) change in German, but another possibility is to parallel the other change in German and merge them all to tsw -- except *dhw > dzw > zw, after which regular sound changes apply and it becomes z(:), which there isn't a source for yet other than *s preceding a voiced aspirate. So zār 'door'. Palatalized z merges with j, so yə̨́rō 'I make a noise'. (Note that nasalization from intervocalic *n doesn't spread past a morpheme boundary.)

It probably doesn't make sense to have yw > yː > ǯ; maybe it metathesizes to wy instead, so 'one' is like aẃa.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Pannonian is divided into two branches. North Pannonian is spoken somewhere around Estonia, and shows Uralic influence -- the development of an array of locative cases, genitive repurposed as a partitive case, etc. South Pannonian sticks around in the easternmost part of the Alps; modern-day Pannonia has the approximate borders of Slovenia.

Internal differentiation is believed to have started in the Latin loan period, based mostly on the evidence of NP *dwəllų/SP *gəllų 'raid'. Most Latin loans come near the end of the Proto-Pannonian period, but before the first vowel shift.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Basic vowel shifts from PP to PNP:

Length is lost, but diphthongs collapse and form new long vowels. Maybe there are some other processes that produce long vowels too.
Chain shift: a: > ɔ, o: > u in some environments, u: > y
e: i: remain unchanged, except i: > e:i in some environments.
æ develops somehow; not sure yet.

Nasal vowels collapse: ã ãː ə̃ ẽː õː ĩ ĩ: ũ ũ: > ã ũ ĩ ũ ã ĩ ã ũ. Then nasality is lost in short vowels. Nasal diphthong outcomes TBD.

This post is mostly a bump.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

There are nine phonemes on the left and eight phonemes on the right.

_________________
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.

Oh, oops.

Also, sP > Ph / #_. Aspirates may develop in other ways like in Latin.

Well, here's the basic PP vowel system:
a ə i u ã ə̃ ĩ ũ aː eː oː iː uː ãː ẽː õː ĩː ũː ai au ãi ãu aːi aːu eːi eːu oːi oːu ãːi ãːu ẽːi ẽːu õːi õːu

And the sound changes:

1) i-metathesis:
0 > i / V_C[peripheral]i(C)#
For example, *h₃égʷʰis 'snake' > ə́gi > ə́ig; *h₃égʷʰim > ə́igĩ

2) Loss of short diphthongs, followed by umlaut
ai au əi əu > ɛː ɔː eː oː
a ə > ɛ o / _$i(:)
a ə > ɔ o / _$u(:)
For example, ə́ig > é:g, *h₁nómn̥ > ĩramun > ĩrɔ́mun

3) A sound change relocated from PP:
K > Kʷ / _un
u > ə / _n
For example: ĩrɔ́mun > ĩrɔ́mən

3.5) Various minor vowel quality changes
ɛ ɛ: > e e:i / _ŋ _g
ɛ ɛ: > a e:u / _Cʷ
a > ɔ / _ŋ _g _l m_
For example: *h₃éngʷn̥ > áŋgun > ɔ́ŋgən 'butter', *stóygʰos > tʰáigu > tʰɛːgu > tʰé:igu 'road'

4) Loss of nasality
ẽː õː ũː > ɛ̃ː ɔ̃ː ə̃:
0 > N / V[+nasal]_P
V[+nasal] > V[-nasal]

5) Loss of length
a: > ɔ:
etc.
6) Great Pannonian Vowel Shift
whatever

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.