Nortpad (NP: Sengödańra)

Quick questions on conlangs & conworlds; translation challenges; quick feedback on phonologies-- in short, stuff that shouldn't clutter up C&C.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

WeepingElf wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:.


Concurred.

I don't have time for this stuff anymore lmao
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by WeepingElf »

Nortaneous wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:.


Concurred.

I don't have time for this stuff anymore lmao


But it should not be lost like tears in the rain, so copy it to somewhere safe.
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ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Here is a Proto-Pannonian noun.

Before the first vowel shift:

Code: Select all

gāycus  gāycōs
gāyci   gāycōs
gāycum  gāycuns
gāycūya gāycōm
gāycāc  gāycumus
gāycōy  gāycumus
gāycay  gāycōyu
gāycō   gāycōyš


I'm not happy with the first palatalization now, so I'll redo it.

0) tK > š (applies before satemization)
1) é > yə
2) Ky > Č
3) Kʷy > Ky
4) Ty > T́, but ts > ś
5) ry > r; clusters with r don't assimilate for palatalization
6) a > ə / _[-stress]${i u}
7) unC > ́ənC

And then:
* V[+round]mV[+round] > Ṽ:
* Vm# > Ṽ
* VNF > ṼF
* s > h
* ś > s
* h > 0 / _#
* o ō > a ā
* ts > s / _#

So:

Code: Select all

gāycu   gāycō 
gāyci   gāycō
gāycum  gāycų
gāycūya gāycǭ
gāycās  gāycų̄
gāycōy  gāycų̄
gāycay  gāycōyu
gāycō   gāycōys


Here's a similar noun with a 'thorn cluster':

Code: Select all

uršu   uršō
urši   uršō
uršum  uršų
uršōyu uršǭ
uršās  uršų̄
uršōy  uršų̄
uršay  uršōyu
uršō   uršōys
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

And for an *eh2-stem...

Code: Select all

bardā  bardā
bardā  bardā
bardą̄  bardą̄w
bardā  bardą̄w
bardā  bardāmu
bardāy bardāmu
bardāy bardāhu
bardā  bardāmi


The nominative, genitive, ablative, and instrumental singular have merged. This presents a problem. Pronoun cliticization as is supposed for English could be used, but this would require pronouns, and pronouns are difficult. What PIE forms produced the Slavic n-pronouns?
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by KathTheDragon »

Another option is to remodel the inflections based on other declensions.

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by dhok »

Re: the n-pronouns in Slavic, good question. They're clearly of some antiquity, because they show up not only in East Slavic but also in South. (Dunno about West). However, they're not present in OCS, and they're not reconstructed for Proto-Slavic, at least according to The Dawn of Slavic by Schenker. On the other hand, Schenker doesn't even mention Winter's Law once in the whole book, so...

Indo-Iranian imported some elements from the n-stems into the thematics- so you have the o/ā-stem gen. pl. ending -ānām, from the n-stems, where you'd expect plain -ām. A lot of the oblique cases of the feminine ā-declension in Sanskrit inserted an -āy- extender (which I think is from the pronominals?), so you have e.g. gen. sg. -āyās.

Could always pull a Tocharian, I suppose...replace the instrumental with postposed *ḱom, so you'd get, what, -eh₂sḱom > -āsḱom > -āsą. (I should really get back to that IE lang...)

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by hwhatting »

dhok wrote:Re: the n-pronouns in Slavic, good question. They're clearly of some antiquity, because they show up not only in East Slavic but also in South. (Dunno about West). However, they're not present in OCS, and they're not reconstructed for Proto-Slavic, at least according to The Dawn of Slavic by Schenker. On the other hand, Schenker doesn't even mention Winter's Law once in the whole book, so...

I'm a bit puzzled... with the n-pronouns, do you mean the forms that start in /n/ after prepositions? But these forms are are common Slavic and do exist in OCS. The /n/ originally was the final consonant of some preceding prepositions. But that's all Slavic historical linguistics 101, so that can't be what you're talking about? Or do you mean onъ, ona, ono? They're Balto-slavic, originally are demonstrative, and Derksen links them with the Greek modal particle an and Latin an "or", reconstructing *H2en-o-. Or do you mean something else entirely?

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

*-eh2sk'om > -āsḱom > PPan. -āhčų; that's one possibility

OK, here are some declensions, using the examples on Wikipedia. Also: o > a, but o: > o:, and short nasal o merges instead with nasal schwa. Another thing I might do is preserve the dual, analogizing endings out from the plural but extended by -a- ~ -ə-, possibly with epenthetic -m- from the dative and ablative...

Acrostatic root noun:

Code: Select all

nákʷs    nákʷt́i
nákʷt    nákʷt́i
nákʷtų   nákʷtə̨
ńə́kʷtā   ńə́kʷtmi
ńə́kʷtay  ńə́kʷtų̄
ńə́kʷs    ńə́kʷtų̄
ńə́kʷs    ńə́kʷtǭ
ńə́kʷt́i   ńə́kʷtsu

Note that the labiovelars are still around. There will be traces of them preserved, even though this is a satem language. (So the nominative and dative forms may end up looking like načč/načča/načči and njoččaj/njoččëmu/njočču or so.)

Also *i palatalizes immediately preceding coronals and dorsals.

Acrostatic lengthened root noun:

Code: Select all

mę̄́       mę̄́śi
mę̄́       mę̄́śi
mę̄́hų     mę̄́hə̨
myə̨t́i    myə̨hmi
myə̨hay   myə̨hmu
myə̨hu    myə̨hmu
myə̨hu    myə̨hǭ
myə̨si    myə̨hu

This is interesting. Note that syllabic n desyllabizes.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

é > yə except before *y; in that case e > a. let's say š > s rather than s' > s; however, š doesn't palatalize and instead deletes following y. so:

tK > š (applies before satemization)
éy > áy
é > yə
Ci > Ći except r š
Ky > Ḱ > Č
Kʷy > Ky
Ty > T́, but ts > ś
ry šy > r š
a > ə / _[-stress]${i u}
unC > ́ənC

V[+round]mV[+round] > Ṽ:
Vm# > Ṽ
VNF > ṼF
s > h
š > s
h > 0 / _#
o ǫ > a ə̨
ts > s / _#

And, why not:
VnV > V̨rV̨
nm ńḿ > n ń

So, an amphikinetic n-stem:

Code: Select all

láymō    láymuńi
láymun   láymuńi
láymųrų  láymunə̨
ĺinḗ     ĺimuńí
ĺináy    ĺimuná
ĺińə́     ĺimuná
ĺińə́     ĺimųrǭ
ĺiḿəńi   ĺimə̨hú

A hysterokinetic n-stem:

Code: Select all

ukšḗn    ukšə́ńi
úkšin    ukšə́ńi
ukšə̨́rų   ukšə̨́rə̨
ukšųrḗ   ukšuní
ukšųráy  ukšųnə̨́
ukšuńə́   ukšųnə̨́
ukšuńə́   ukšųrǭ́
ukšə́ńi   ukšə̨hú

And a neuter s-stem, which is much better behaved:

Code: Select all

ńə́bu     ńə́bō
ńə́bu     ńə́bō
ńə́bu     ńə́bō
ńə́buhā   ńə́bēḿi
ńə́buhay  ńə́bēmu
ńə́b́ihu   ńə́bēmus
ńə́b́ihu   ńə́b́ihǭ
ńə́b́isi   ńə́b́ihu
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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

The king and the god:

(actually, let's say palatovelars back to velars before /s/; also Kʷyə > Kʷyo > Kya; Kʷi > Ki)

Arḗks yət. Há unčuntá yət, hū́yú-kya krīp'it. Há tus'u b'ə́rtōrų pursəc'i: "Hū́yu may ǯun'ītá!" Há b'ə́rtōr tə̨ arḗkų ru w'ə́wkic'i, "Hūlčə́d'i c'iw'ā́y Aúhrāy."

*s disappears entirely from the copula, as it tends to do in inflections.
For krīp, cf. Baltic grib-.
Tus'u is assumed to be unstressed.
Not sure what the middle subjunctive will look like yet.
Maybe 'ask' should drift away from the accusative?
'Priest' could be from *kówh1e:s instead.
'King' is assumed to regularize from the nominative, which is an unusual development in most cases but is probably excusable here.
Ru < nu. Seems reasonable; tends to follow a vowel. Will turn into a prefix later.
'Pray' is from sl̥h₂-sḱ-ye-, backing up Armenian.
How realistic is it to preserve the *-di 2sg imperative?
'God' is from dyews; the metathesized form gives 'day'. 'Goddess' is derived from 'god'. Let's say Eostre attains significance in Pannonian religion; let's also say that Eostre and Jupiter were both associated with the sun, in different ways, and after Christianization produced the Pannonian names of the Father and the Holy Ghost. Why not? C'iw'ā́ is a backformation from the oblique stem c'iw'(ə).
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Another eh2-stem, naturally in a different order:

Code: Select all

dąrą̄́  dąrā́y
dąrą̄́  dąrā́y
dąrą̄́  dąrą̄́
dąrą̄́  dąrą̄́mi
dąrą̄́y dąrą̄́mu
dąrą̄́  dąrą̄́mu
dąrą̄́  dąrą̄́(m)ǭ
dąrą̄́y dąrą̄́su

I must have gotten the accusative wrong somewhere. (I'm applying the changes from memory now, so maybe here.). *eh2ns > a:ns, not a:nus. Also let's say hiatus doesn't lead to diphthongization.

The eh2-stems will definitely need to borrow morphology from another stem class. Let's see about the o-stems:

Code: Select all

nītsá   nītsṓ
nīśə́    nītsṓ
nītsą́   nītsą́
nītsṓ   nītsṓy
nītsṓy  nītsámu
nītsḗs  nītsámu
nītsáśu nītsǭ́
nītsáy  nitsáysu


Maybe the abl. sg. is -ā́s; Wikipedia's hiatus convention is bizarre but I forget how it's supposed to resolve. Latin has -ā, so let's go with that.

How about another feminine stem?

(also I forgot about ruki, so the loc. pl. is -su)
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Here is The Pronominal:

Code: Select all

    M           F          N
NOM sá    táy   sā́    tā́   tás   tā́
ACC tą́    tą́    tą̄́    tą̄́   tás   tā́
GEN táśu  táysǭ táśā  tā́hǭ táy   táysǭ
ABL támās táymu táśā  tā́mu támās táymu
DAT támay táymu táśāy tā́mu támay táymu
LOC támi  táysu táśā  tā́hu támi  táysu
INS tą́rǭ  tṓys  tā́    tā́mi tą́rǭ  tṓys


Also:

Code: Select all

NOM tųžwā́    tųžwā́
ACC tųžwą̄́    tųžwā́
INS tųžū(y)ā tųžūmí
DAT tųžūyə́y  tųžūmá
ABL tųžūyə́   tųžūmá
GEN tųžūyə́   tųžū(m)ǭ́
LOC tųžwā́y   tųžūsú
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

*nisdos

Code: Select all

NOM nītsá   nītsṓ   
VOC nīśə́    nītsṓ   
ACC nītsą́   nītsą́   
INS nītsṓ   nītsṓy   
DAT nītsṓy  nītsámu   
ABL nītsḗs  nītsámu   
GEN nītsáśu nītsǭ́   
LOC nītsáy  nitsáyhu   


*werg'om

Code: Select all

NOM wḗrčų   wḗrčā
ACC wḗrčų   wḗrčā
INS wḗrčō   wḗrčōy
DAT wḗrčēy  wḗrčų̄
ABL wḗrčās  wḗrčų̄
GEN wḗrčōyu wḗrčǭ
LOC wḗrčay  wḗrčaysu


*h2ner (not sure about the geminate stuff)

Code: Select all

anḗr   ańə́ri
ańə́rų  ańə́rų
arrə́   arrǭ́
arrə́   ə̨rųnnás
arrə́y  ə̨rųnnás
ańə́ri  ə̨rųssu
arrḗ   ə̨rųnní


could borrow from the plural of *werg'om for the sg of eh2-stems, so:

Code: Select all

bardā́    bardā́y
bardą̄́    bardą̄́
bardṓy   bardā́mi
bardų̄́    bardā́mu
bardų̄́    bardā́mu
bardǭ́    bardā́(m)ǭ
bardáysu bardáysu

but it seems plausible that at least the loc. sg. would persist and be identical to the nom. pl.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Is the PIE ablative real, or is it secondary? Pannonian won't have it.

Here's the eh2-stem declension:

Code: Select all

NOM bardā  bardā
VOC bardā  bardā
ACC bardą̄  bardą̄w
GEN bardǭ  bardą̄w
DAT bardų̄  bardāmu
LOC bardāy bardāhu
INS bardōy bardāmi


The feminine pronominal will borrow the genitive from the eh2-stem declension:

Code: Select all

    M           F          N
NOM sá    táy   sā́    tā́   tás   tā́
ACC tą́    tą́    tą̄́    tą̄́   tás   tā́
GEN táśu  táysǭ táśǭ  tā́hǭ táy   táysǭ
DAT támay táymu táśāy tā́mu támay táymu
LOC támi  táysu táśā  tā́hu támi  táysu
INS tą́rǭ  tṓys  tā́    tā́mi tą́rǭ  tṓys
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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by KathTheDragon »

I am unconvinced that the PIE ablative is old (at least as a distinct case; Hittite does possess the category, but its marker is the clearly secondary *-ti)

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Is there a difference between *oynos and *oywos? PP's numeral 'one' is from *oywos, mostly to be different without using *sem. The *-sr- feminines are retained, and spread to 'two', which was originally tsā́śi: *h1 was retained as *h (*dweh2h1e > *dwā́he), and palatalized. 'Six' is from *wek's, but *sek's and *swek's would both be śə́k.

áǯa (M) / áǯā (F) / áǯą (N)
tsṓ (M) / tsā́ši (F) / tsái (N)
tráyi (M) / ćī́ši (F) / trī́ (N)
kʷəttṓri (M) / kʷəććə́ši (F) / kʷəttṓr (N)
pyə́nči
wyə́k
śiptų́
aštṓw
eńə́wun
śə́čənt

As the sound changes are now, initial unstressed *o becomes a, but all other unstressed *o becomes u. Maybe this is bad.

In Standard Pannonian these would probably look like:

až/ažuo/ažo
cuu/ciäšuo/cää
čäje/čeišuo/čei
kyttyy/kuččuo/kuttuu
fäč
vjõch
sifti
aštuu
enjy
sičõn

Or something.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by KathTheDragon »

Nortaneous wrote:Is there a difference between *oynos and *oywos?

Probably, but what that was is hard to recover.

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

maybe *tw- *dw- *dhw- > p p b? or is this too Latin-like? another alternative is to have *dw- become f

Lithuanian innovated some cases due to Finnic influence:
- inessive: locative + -en ( < *h1en?)
- illative: accusative + -n(a) (< *h1en?)
- adessive: locative + -pie (< *h1epo?)
- allative: genitive + -pie (< *h1epo?)

This seems sensible, but I don't know why the allative takes the genitive, and I'd prefer *h2eu to *h1epo on aesthetic grounds... another option is to replace the locative with the dative and innovate a new locative:

Code: Select all

NOM bardā     bardā
VOC bardā     bardā
ACC bardą̄     bardą̄w
GEN bardǭ     bardą̄w
DAT bardų̄     bardāmu
INS bardōy    bardāmi
LOC bardāyin  bardāfin (f < sw) - old locative + *h1en
ILL bardą̄min  bardą̄win - accusative + *h1en
ADE bardų̄maw  bardāmbaw (mb < mw) - dative + *h2eu
ALL bardą̄maw  bardą̄waw - accusative + *h2eu


Code: Select all

NOM wḗrčų    wḗrčā
ACC wḗrčų    wḗrčā
INS wḗrčō    wḗrčōy
DAT wḗrčēy   wḗrčų̄
ABL wḗrčās   wḗrčų̄
GEN wḗrčōyu  wḗrčǭ
LOC wḗrčayin wḗrčayfin
ILL wḗrčųmin wḗrčāyn / wḗrčāśin
ADE wḗrčēyaw wḗrčų̄maw
ALL wḗrčųmaw wḗrčāw
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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by mèþru »

Perhaps they become linguolabial stops or fricatives that split between alveolar and labials.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by KathTheDragon »

Perhaps it could be split according to the following vowel

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

I considered tw dw dhw > kʷ f gʷ, paralleling a (sporadic?) change in German, but another possibility is to parallel the other change in German and merge them all to tsw -- except *dhw > dzw > zw, after which regular sound changes apply and it becomes z(:), which there isn't a source for yet other than *s preceding a voiced aspirate. So zār 'door'. Palatalized z merges with j, so yə̨́rō 'I make a noise'. (Note that nasalization from intervocalic *n doesn't spread past a morpheme boundary.)

It probably doesn't make sense to have yw > yː > ǯ; maybe it metathesizes to wy instead, so 'one' is like aẃa.
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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Pannonian is divided into two branches. North Pannonian is spoken somewhere around Estonia, and shows Uralic influence -- the development of an array of locative cases, genitive repurposed as a partitive case, etc. South Pannonian sticks around in the easternmost part of the Alps; modern-day Pannonia has the approximate borders of Slovenia.

Internal differentiation is believed to have started in the Latin loan period, based mostly on the evidence of NP *dwəllų/SP *gəllų 'raid'. Most Latin loans come near the end of the Proto-Pannonian period, but before the first vowel shift.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Basic vowel shifts from PP to PNP:

Length is lost, but diphthongs collapse and form new long vowels. Maybe there are some other processes that produce long vowels too.
Chain shift: a: > ɔ, o: > u in some environments, u: > y
e: i: remain unchanged, except i: > e:i in some environments.
æ develops somehow; not sure yet.

Nasal vowels collapse: ã ãː ə̃ ẽː õː ĩ ĩ: ũ ũ: > ã ũ ĩ ũ ã ĩ ã ũ. Then nasality is lost in short vowels. Nasal diphthong outcomes TBD.

This post is mostly a bump.
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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Pole, the »

ã ãː ə̃ ẽː õː ĩ ĩ: ũ ũ: > ã ũ ĩ ũ ã ĩ ã ũ

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Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Post by Nortaneous »

Oh, oops.

Also, sP > Ph / #_. Aspirates may develop in other ways like in Latin.

Well, here's the basic PP vowel system:
a ə i u ã ə̃ ĩ ũ aː eː oː iː uː ãː ẽː õː ĩː ũː ai au ãi ãu aːi aːu eːi eːu oːi oːu ãːi ãːu ẽːi ẽːu õːi õːu

And the sound changes:

1) i-metathesis:
0 > i / V_C[peripheral]i(C)#
For example, *h₃égʷʰis 'snake' > ə́gi > ə́ig; *h₃égʷʰim > ə́igĩ

2) Loss of short diphthongs, followed by umlaut
ai au əi əu > ɛː ɔː eː oː
a ə > ɛ o / _$i(:)
a ə > ɔ o / _$u(:)
For example, ə́ig > é:g, *h₁nómn̥ > ĩramun > ĩrɔ́mun

3) A sound change relocated from PP:
K > Kʷ / _un
u > ə / _n
For example: ĩrɔ́mun > ĩrɔ́mən

3.5) Various minor vowel quality changes
ɛ ɛ: > e e:i / _ŋ _g
ɛ ɛ: > a e:u / _Cʷ
a > ɔ / _ŋ _g _l m_
For example: *h₃éngʷn̥ > áŋgun > ɔ́ŋgən 'butter', *stóygʰos > tʰáigu > tʰɛːgu > tʰé:igu 'road'

4) Loss of nasality
ẽː õː ũː > ɛ̃ː ɔ̃ː ə̃:
0 > N / V[+nasal]_P
V[+nasal] > V[-nasal]

5) Loss of length
a: > ɔ:
etc.
6) Great Pannonian Vowel Shift
whatever
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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