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Nortpad (NP: Sengödańra)
http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41750
Page 13 of 15

Author:  Nortaneous [ Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  WeepingElf [ Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  KathTheDragon [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Another option is to remodel the inflections based on other declensions.

Author:  dhok [ Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Re: the n-pronouns in Slavic, good question. They're clearly of some antiquity, because they show up not only in East Slavic but also in South. (Dunno about West). However, they're not present in OCS, and they're not reconstructed for Proto-Slavic, at least according to The Dawn of Slavic by Schenker. On the other hand, Schenker doesn't even mention Winter's Law once in the whole book, so...

Indo-Iranian imported some elements from the n-stems into the thematics- so you have the o/ā-stem gen. pl. ending -ānām, from the n-stems, where you'd expect plain -ām. A lot of the oblique cases of the feminine ā-declension in Sanskrit inserted an -āy- extender (which I think is from the pronominals?), so you have e.g. gen. sg. -āyās.

Could always pull a Tocharian, I suppose...replace the instrumental with postposed *ḱom, so you'd get, what, -eh₂sḱom > -āsḱom > -āsą. (I should really get back to that IE lang...)

Author:  hwhatting [ Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

The king and the god:

(actually, let's say palatovelars back to velars before /s/; also Kʷyə > Kʷyo > Kya; Kʷi > Ki)

Arḗks yət. Há unčuntá yət, hū́yú-kya krīp'it. Há tus'u b'ə́rtōrų pursəc'i: "Hū́yu may ǯun'ītá!" Há b'ə́rtōr tə̨ arḗkų ru w'ə́wkic'i, "Hūlčə́d'i c'iw'ā́y Aúhrāy."

*s disappears entirely from the copula, as it tends to do in inflections.
For krīp, cf. Baltic grib-.
Tus'u is assumed to be unstressed.
Not sure what the middle subjunctive will look like yet.
Maybe 'ask' should drift away from the accusative?
'Priest' could be from *kówh1e:s instead.
'King' is assumed to regularize from the nominative, which is an unusual development in most cases but is probably excusable here.
Ru < nu. Seems reasonable; tends to follow a vowel. Will turn into a prefix later.
'Pray' is from sl̥h₂-sḱ-ye-, backing up Armenian.
How realistic is it to preserve the *-di 2sg imperative?
'God' is from dyews; the metathesized form gives 'day'. 'Goddess' is derived from 'god'. Let's say Eostre attains significance in Pannonian religion; let's also say that Eostre and Jupiter were both associated with the sun, in different ways, and after Christianization produced the Pannonian names of the Father and the Holy Ghost. Why not? C'iw'ā́ is a backformation from the oblique stem c'iw'(ə).

Author:  Nortaneous [ Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  KathTheDragon [ Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

I am unconvinced that the PIE ablative is old (at least as a distinct case; Hittite does possess the category, but its marker is the clearly secondary *-ti)

Author:  Nortaneous [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Is there a difference between *oynos and *oywos? PP's numeral 'one' is from *oywos, mostly to be different without using *sem. The *-sr- feminines are retained, and spread to 'two', which was originally tsā́śi: *h1 was retained as *h (*dweh2h1e > *dwā́he), and palatalized. 'Six' is from *wek's, but *sek's and *swek's would both be śə́k.

áǯa (M) / áǯā (F) / áǯą (N)
tsṓ (M) / tsā́ši (F) / tsái (N)
tráyi (M) / ćī́ši (F) / trī́ (N)
kʷəttṓri (M) / kʷəććə́ši (F) / kʷəttṓr (N)
pyə́nči
wyə́k
śiptų́
aštṓw
eńə́wun
śə́čənt

As the sound changes are now, initial unstressed *o becomes a, but all other unstressed *o becomes u. Maybe this is bad.

In Standard Pannonian these would probably look like:

až/ažuo/ažo
cuu/ciäšuo/cää
čäje/čeišuo/čei
kyttyy/kuččuo/kuttuu
fäč
vjõch
sifti
aštuu
enjy
sičõn

Or something.

Author:  KathTheDragon [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  mèþru [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Perhaps they become linguolabial stops or fricatives that split between alveolar and labials.

Author:  KathTheDragon [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Perhaps it could be split according to the following vowel

Author:  Nortaneous [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

I considered tw dw dhw > kʷ f gʷ, paralleling a (sporadic?) change in German, but another possibility is to parallel the other change in German and merge them all to tsw -- except *dhw > dzw > zw, after which regular sound changes apply and it becomes z(:), which there isn't a source for yet other than *s preceding a voiced aspirate. So zār 'door'. Palatalized z merges with j, so yə̨́rō 'I make a noise'. (Note that nasalization from intervocalic *n doesn't spread past a morpheme boundary.)

It probably doesn't make sense to have yw > yː > ǯ; maybe it metathesizes to wy instead, so 'one' is like aẃa.

Author:  Nortaneous [ Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Pannonian is divided into two branches. North Pannonian is spoken somewhere around Estonia, and shows Uralic influence -- the development of an array of locative cases, genitive repurposed as a partitive case, etc. South Pannonian sticks around in the easternmost part of the Alps; modern-day Pannonia has the approximate borders of Slovenia.

Internal differentiation is believed to have started in the Latin loan period, based mostly on the evidence of NP *dwəllų/SP *gəllų 'raid'. Most Latin loans come near the end of the Proto-Pannonian period, but before the first vowel shift.

Author:  Nortaneous [ Sun May 21, 2017 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Basic vowel shifts from PP to PNP:

Length is lost, but diphthongs collapse and form new long vowels. Maybe there are some other processes that produce long vowels too.
Chain shift: a: > ɔ, o: > u in some environments, u: > y
e: i: remain unchanged, except i: > e:i in some environments.
æ develops somehow; not sure yet.

Nasal vowels collapse: ã ãː ə̃ ẽː õː ĩ ĩ: ũ ũ: > ã ũ ĩ ũ ã ĩ ã ũ. Then nasality is lost in short vowels. Nasal diphthong outcomes TBD.

This post is mostly a bump.

Author:  Pole, the [ Mon May 22, 2017 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)


Author:  Nortaneous [ Sun May 28, 2017 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nortpad (NP: Ëng Nghëmrï)

Oh, oops.

Also, sP > Ph / #_. Aspirates may develop in other ways like in Latin.

Well, here's the basic PP vowel system:
a ə i u ã ə̃ ĩ ũ aː eː oː iː uː ãː ẽː õː ĩː ũː ai au ãi ãu aːi aːu eːi eːu oːi oːu ãːi ãːu ẽːi ẽːu õːi õːu

And the sound changes:

1) i-metathesis:
0 > i / V_C[peripheral]i(C)#
For example, *h₃égʷʰis 'snake' > ə́gi > ə́ig; *h₃égʷʰim > ə́igĩ

2) Loss of short diphthongs, followed by umlaut
ai au əi əu > ɛː ɔː eː oː
a ə > ɛ o / _$i(:)
a ə > ɔ o / _$u(:)
For example, ə́ig > é:g, *h₁nómn̥ > ĩramun > ĩrɔ́mun

3) A sound change relocated from PP:
K > Kʷ / _un
u > ə / _n
For example: ĩrɔ́mun > ĩrɔ́mən

3.5) Various minor vowel quality changes
ɛ ɛ: > e e:i / _ŋ _g
ɛ ɛ: > a e:u / _Cʷ
a > ɔ / _ŋ _g _l m_
For example: *h₃éngʷn̥ > áŋgun > ɔ́ŋgən 'butter', *stóygʰos > tʰáigu > tʰɛːgu > tʰé:igu 'road'

4) Loss of nasality
ẽː õː ũː > ɛ̃ː ɔ̃ː ə̃:
0 > N / V[+nasal]_P
V[+nasal] > V[-nasal]

5) Loss of length
a: > ɔ:
etc.
6) Great Pannonian Vowel Shift
whatever

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