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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Another PNP sound change: loss of Pr clusters.

tr dr > ts z

Before front vowels:
pr br > pj bj
kr gr > kj gj
kʷr gʷr > kʷj gʷj

Before back vowels:
pr br > pɣ bɣ > x ɣ
kr gr > kɣ gɣ > kʰ g
kʷr gʷr > kʷɣ gʷɣ > xʷ w

Also, n-flapping happens early - before laryngeal loss and e-epenthesis in schwa clusters. Produces ɾ, which remains distinct from r from *r except in clusters.
*h1e- > i, although I think this is regular.
r > ɣ? why not

Some basic cognates: (PIE - PP - PNP; stress unmarked because not done yet)

mánus 'person' - mą́ru - mɔru
h1nómn 'name' - inámun - inɔmən
wiHrós 'man' - wīrá - wīɣa
gʷḗna 'woman' - kʷę̄́ɾa - kʷɛ̄ɾa (obl. stem gʷnā- - kʷrą̄́ - xʷɔ̄)
ph2tēr 'father' - patḗr - patēɣ
méh2tēr 'mother' - mā́tēr - mātēɣ
bhréh2tēr 'brother' - brā́tēr - ɣātēɣ
swésōr 'sister' - fyə́hur - fyohuɣ
dhugh2tḗr 'daughter' - dukatḗr - dukatēɣ
dayh2wḗr 'husband's brother' - tsawyḗr - tsɔ̄yēɣ
swéḱruH 'in-law' - fyə́kru - fyokʰu (f. fyəkʰā)
h3dónts 'tooth' - utsáŋk - utsaŋk (but probably the nominative is taken over from the accusative, utsantų - utsɔntu; obl. utsənt-)
h2ósth1 'bone' - ácʰi (obl. ácʰi-)
ḱḗr 'heart' - čḗr - čḗɣ (obl. čurts- - čuɣts-)
neh2s 'nose' - nā́s - nās
eḱwos 'horse' - yə́čču - yočču
h2rtḱos 'bear' - aršu - ɔɣšu
wlkʷos 'wolf' - ulku - ulku
h2égros 'field' - agru - ɔgu

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Kurēi ɛvi, kyośu ulanā ńə śə yətʰ, śoččuŋ pʰyečit, ɛ̄nu ži kuɣu vɔžu vyožəntu ɛ̄nuki myəčʰa bɔɣu, ɛ̄nuki žmyoru ōču byoɣəntu. Ɛvi tu śəččɛ̄mu vɔ̄kyət: čēɣ ɔgutaɣ mɛ̄ śoččuŋ ɔžəntu ańoɣu vitsəntɛ̄. Śəččō tu vɔ̄kənt: čluʒ́i, avɛ̄, čēɣ ʒ́i ɔgutaɣ uŋmɛ̄ vitsəntma. Arēɣ, pɛci, ɔ̄yu uɣ ulanā śebi kuńńɔ̄ci ru gyommu vyotsʰu ńeži ɔ̄yu ulanā yəcʰi. Tas čəčlū ɔ̄yi ɔčʰu bucət.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:07 am 
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Old sig:
Qapi Mongkoush nurrumsh ship 'o'o shi shdug kouzou dlaha.
Shdug nganxish ship tla' mang fushish Qapi Mongkoush.
Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo.

pl bl > kl gl; again, why not

New sig:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:15 pm 
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* PH clusters > P_h, merging with sP
* epenthetic schwa merges with *e as in Greek
* maybe unstressed o > a instead of u?
* maybe different outcomes for syllabic resonants?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:31 am 
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Many IE languages replace thematic nom.pl ending *-o:s with -oi. Pannonian does not do this, but it does replace the *athematic* nom.pl ending *-es with -oi. These are fairly phonetically similar in PP: -'i vs. -ai.

The thematic animate acc.pl ending is from *-oms > *-ons, not *-o:m.

Evidently there is a present active participle *-ent-h2. I don't see why this shouldn't be preserved.

The instrumental singular ending is from *-eh1 except in some glide-final stems.

The locative is preserved in Pannonian as the base for the innovated locative forms, and also provides the new thematic dative plural -ais'i.

*-ih2 *-uh2 become -ya: -wa:. The genitive singular is innovated as per Italo-Celtic, but retains the athematic-thematic alternation, so -aya: ~ -ya:.

actually i am probably not going to do any of this

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:08 am 
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beeˀkoo beeˀči beeˀčit
beeˀkwa beeˀšam beeˀšaam
beeˀkämi beeˀkäći beeˀkõnt

beˀk beˀč beˀčit
beˀko beˀšu beˀšå
beˀkam beˀkać beˀkõnd

bek beč bečit
beko beš beša
bekam bekać bekõnd

bek beč bečit
beko bekot bektand
bekam bekać bekõnd

---

bééˀkam béékh bééˀš
biiˀčə́ biiˀčám biiˀčáám
biiˀčamyə́ biiˀšə́ biiˀčə́nt

beˀku beˀx beˀš
biˀč biˀču biˀčå
biˀčä'mi biˀš biˀčə́nt

bek bech beš
bič bič bičå
bičäm biš bičõnd

bek bek bekit
bič bič bičå
bičäm bikät bičõnd

---

booˀka booˀša booˀči
? ? ?
biiˀkamyə́ biiˀčə́ biiˀkee

buˀka buˀša buˀči
? ? ?
biˀkä'mi biˀč biˀči

buka bukat buč
biko bikot biktand
bikäm bičat biči

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:31 am 
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I've been reading up on Avestan so here are some possible sound changes, especially for PP > NP

V:(j w)V > V:(j w)V
a:i > ai in closed syllables, > O:i > oi in open syllables (low-mid and high-mid don't contrast in diphthongs)
ai > æ only in closed syllables? (currently applies everywhere but word-finally, where ai is retained)
e: i: > ej 1j in open syllables (ej also before coronals, or possibly extended by analogy in conjugations characterized by e:, e.g. the subj. sg. in -ei -ei -eid)
dz` (from g') > z` > l`, maybe written <rl> or <rd> and maybe merging with <rd> as in some North Germanic, in which case rt > s` (or K, as has been reconstructed for Avestan; dialectal variation can occur here, but this would have to be before nonrhoticity) -- also possibly nonpostvocalic r > l` instead of j/w, so rluop 'turnip'
[did PIE even have r-initial roots? both of the ones on Wiktionary look fake. Latin re:te > Pannonian *re:ta > NP rleita 'net', let's say. and Latin re:si:na > Pannonian r@s\i:na > rlësiëina]
PC > PhC > FC for some C (e.g. *pnew-mn > fnauman > fruoma 'breath')

the verb conjugation really needs to be redone but that can be done later

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:04 am 
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f

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:50 am 
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some words, I think these are right. -@J > -in, -@l > u, -an in the -an-declension > -ê

žëmê 'human'
ˀanië 'man'
kirå 'woman'
candžå 'tongue'
sianië 'blood' (irregular; *iha- > *hya-)
čaaˀna 'grain'
ačka 'field'
ałåsël 'plow'
meˀd 'mead'
eimê 'seed'
güˀk 'yoke'
yačča 'horse'
yåkin 'liver'

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:50 pm 
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a church is a ˀkleisia, which is maybe too conservative. a Protestant church, however, is a... hm, relative chronology. it is from Kirche, because Germans. presumably aspirates were already gone by then, but maybe they stuck around for a long time! that would give some fun borrowing patterns. assuming this is loaned before German r-vocalization, we could have either chiichë or kirchë.

on the other hand, maybe there is some form of *kiriko ~ *kirihho ~ *chirihho borrowed earlier, which would probably give some sort of *xirikk(h)o-type form, which would become what, cherlˀkë /xeɭkʼə/

maybe Pannonian should develop some Englishoid syllabification pathologies. hm.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:05 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:59 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:40 am 
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i have been working on getting the sound changes into an SCA. the ones that are still around do not deal very well with suprasegmentals

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:16 pm 
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from Greek. q k > k g, c > ng because gk convention. san is preserved i guess. the u-looking thing is a ~bindrune for y + schwa, which is a p common sequence since it's the regular outcome of stressed e. it probably becomes its own letter eventually

the text isn't quite right but w/e

nasal vowels haven't developed yet so the 'nasality' splits in the first vowel shift are actually just conditioned by following nasals


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:34 am 
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Last edited by Nortaneous on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:17 am 
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Latin to Pannonian declensions in loans:

1 > 1
2M > 4US
2N > 2N
3 > 3 or 4IS depending
4 > 4US
5 > there won't be any fifth-declension loans into Pannonian until whenever scientific terminology in -ie:s starts getting coined and borrowed, so this can wait

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:47 am 
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We have a problem. This is probably the language of the Pannonii, but where do we get that from? IE has *pon-yo- 'swamp', but this gives PP *panya-, not *panno-. We can take the *-yós ending as added by Latin (as long as the adjective ends up in the second declension), but where does the -n- come from? It can't come from *-nós, because this would give -ɾa. If we assume that there was a dialect where *y followed *w in conditioning gemination rather than palatalizing, we'd get [pannãɾ-], which is maybe close enough; and later on /ã/ merges with schwa, which could explain the -o-. But this seems unsatisfactory.

Another possibility is to change the name. The Pannonii were evidently Celticized anyway. It would be possible to identify the Pannonians with the Cimmerians (Kimmérioi), if a suitable etymology can be found. We'd need something like *[k|g]ʷe(y)[r|m]-m- or -e(y)m-w-, which we don't have, and anyway their names were Iranian and they're a bit too far east.

The Varciani are alleged to be Celtic, but they're sparsely attested enough that that could just be wrong, and they're roughly in the right place. This would go back to *[gʷ|w][a|ə|jə][ɾ|r](V)k[ʲ|y|i]-, so we'd need a root along the lines of *gʷʰV[r|n] or *wV[r|n].

We have *gʷʰon-o- 'slayer', which is maybe a bit edgy, and *gʷʰer- 'warm', which could maybe tie into the legends of firebirds in the Hercynian Forest. Which sounds a bit similar; maybe we can do something with that. If we assume an early (before the development of *f) Celtic loan of *ɸerkuniā... it'd have initial stress, so it could give *w(ʲ)ə́[r|ɾ]kunyā. We'll need to move *u > *ə / _N$ up a bit in the chronology to get *w(ʲ)ə́Rkənyā, and then maybe there's some metathesis somewhere along the line and we get *w(ʲ)ə́Rkyənā.

There's also the Mazaei (Μα(ι)ζαῖοι), who have the advantage of actually being in Pannonia. We'd need *m-ǵʰ, and the only thing we have is *meiǵ(ʰ)- 'grain'. "The grain farmers"? Boring.

Of course, "Germania" probably doesn't have anything to do with anything the Germanic tribes actually called themselves, and neither does "Celtic", which just means "warlike". "Russia" is from "oarsmen", and "Saxon" is from "knife". Given the names of the Germanic tribes, maybe *gʷʰon-o- isn't so far out; it'd give *gʷāɾ-a-, so now we just need *-k-, which is a hard problem.

Whatever. Let's go with *w(ʲ)ə́Rkyənā. Maybe early confusion of words can explain the firebird legend, if it's borrowed with *r. So probably the native name of the country is... what happens to *wʲ again? /ˈvəːkiɲa/, probably.

Wait that sucks, what if they're grain farmers? *maižanaya? > /mæʐanaja/? Also boring.

What's the firebird again? We have fire, which could be from *gʷʰer- or *péh₂wr̥ or h₁n̥gʷnis. Maybe the firebird legend bounced around with some fire-word from *gʷʰer for a while, and then a bird is of course a *bʰreidʰos. So we're probably dealing with a *gʷʰerbʰréidʰos or a *h₁n̥gʷnibʰréidʰos > /giːgǿˀda/ or a /ɕeŋgəɾgǿˀda/. And of course we have -n- for adjectivals and -ya for place names, and place names tend to get reduced, so maybe sengödania.

Sure why not.

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:33 am 
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script


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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Letters, in order. First row:
a < alpha
ai < alpha + iota ligature
au < alpha + upsilon ligature
b < beta
ng < gamma, by the Greek convention of writing /N/ as gamma -- Old Pannonian had phonemic /N/
d < delta
z < delta + rho ligature
e < epsilon; it rotated the other way from in Latin
w < digamma; as epsilon
zh < zeta; /z/ hadn't developed yet
h < eta
r < I forget. replaced theta after it fell out of use (/t_h/ merged with /s/)

Second row:
i < iota
oe < some sort of ligature, doesn't really matter even in-world
g < kappa, since gamma was used for /N/
l < lambda
lj < lambda + iota ligature
m < mu
n < nu
u < omicron; there was no /o/, only /o:/, which later raised to /u/
p < pi
[sh < san should be here but I forgot to include it. it probably looks like Cyrillic M]
k < qoppa; the resemblance to phi is coincidental

Third row:
lh (R) < rho
s < sigma
sj < sigma + iota ligature
t < tau
cj < tau + iota ligature
ue < upsilon
f < phi
ch < xi; cf. Khotanese use of Sanskrit ksh for a retroflex affricate
x < psi, which was apparently used by some variants of early Greek for /k_h/
schwa < innovated letter, probably iota with a dot
o < schwa + upsilon ligature, or really bindrune -- replaces the lower vertical line of upsilon (back when it looked like Y) with the diagonal line of earlier forms of schwa. the (conservative) capital letter looks like Cyrillic Y

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:47 am 
Sumerul
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man, everyone has a future English, don't they

-- BEGINNING --

/æ a e ə ɔ i ɚ u/
/aj ej oj ij/
/æw əw uw/
/ar er or ir/
/eə əj æj/

æ e > æj ej / _g _ŋ (already completed)
æ > eə / _m _n _ŋ (active)
ɔ > oə except _l _g _ŋ
əl al ɔl > ɔ
əw > o / _(...)l
æ > eə / _C[+voice] except _w
æw > æ
ar or > ɔr ur
əw > ew except when unstressed
aj > a
e > i / _m _n

/æ a ɔ e ə o i ɚ u/
/ej oj ij/
/ew uw/
/ɔr er ir ur/
/eə oə əj æj/

ej uw > æj iw
j > 0 / _iw
l > w / V_C, except ul > u
l > w / V[j w]ə_
ɚw > ɚ
æj ij > aj uj

æ e > e i (except in diphthongs)
ɔ > a, but ɔr > or
unstressed əw > u
æw > aw
eə oə > e u

r > : / V_, ɾ otherwise
a ə ɚ > a: a a
various consonant simplifications
end of L2 pressure, global collapse, deindustralization
development of geminates from loss of devoiced vowels
tonogenesis
~mazurzenie
loss of medial d
interaction between tone and stress which would be tedious to work out; presumably the stress system is folded into tonal contrasts

da nùù wį ą na san wadzìˈpiwrį ˈwìtsą wa da ˈʂąąga wį a ˈtʂewla kąj aˈląą tsį a wųų xéw || daj àˈruja da da wą iw fà ˈssuja in ˈmajkį na ˈtʂewla táj ù ì xéw su buj kąˈsiraa ˈʂąąga ą na aa || dzį na nùù wį bliw à òò à uj kù bá da muu uj bliw da muu xèw da ˈtʂewla ˈfoa ì xéw aˈrę įˈsè an á lè da nùù win gaj á da atsį || dzį da są sęw é wųų ą ˈmujdzáli da ˈtʂewla tú ù ì xéw || ą sew da nùù wį wà aˈblààa ta kąˈfì dá da są wa da ˈʂųga a da tsiw

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:12 am 
Sumerul
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bump

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 am 
Sumerul
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_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:28 am 
Sumerul
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Location: the Imperial Corridor

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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