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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:30 pm 
Sumerul
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Another PNP sound change: loss of Pr clusters.

tr dr > ts z

Before front vowels:
pr br > pj bj
kr gr > kj gj
kʷr gʷr > kʷj gʷj

Before back vowels:
pr br > pɣ bɣ > x ɣ
kr gr > kɣ gɣ > kʰ g
kʷr gʷr > kʷɣ gʷɣ > xʷ w

Also, n-flapping happens early - before laryngeal loss and e-epenthesis in schwa clusters. Produces ɾ, which remains distinct from r from *r except in clusters.
*h1e- > i, although I think this is regular.
r > ɣ? why not

Some basic cognates: (PIE - PP - PNP; stress unmarked because not done yet)

mánus 'person' - mą́ru - mɔru
h1nómn 'name' - inámun - inɔmən
wiHrós 'man' - wīrá - wīɣa
gʷḗna 'woman' - kʷę̄́ɾa - kʷɛ̄ɾa (obl. stem gʷnā- - kʷrą̄́ - xʷɔ̄)
ph2tēr 'father' - patḗr - patēɣ
méh2tēr 'mother' - mā́tēr - mātēɣ
bhréh2tēr 'brother' - brā́tēr - ɣātēɣ
swésōr 'sister' - fyə́hur - fyohuɣ
dhugh2tḗr 'daughter' - dukatḗr - dukatēɣ
dayh2wḗr 'husband's brother' - tsawyḗr - tsɔ̄yēɣ
swéḱruH 'in-law' - fyə́kru - fyokʰu (f. fyəkʰā)
h3dónts 'tooth' - utsáŋk - utsaŋk (but probably the nominative is taken over from the accusative, utsantų - utsɔntu; obl. utsənt-)
h2ósth1 'bone' - ácʰi (obl. ácʰi-)
ḱḗr 'heart' - čḗr - čḗɣ (obl. čurts- - čuɣts-)
neh2s 'nose' - nā́s - nās
eḱwos 'horse' - yə́čču - yočču
h2rtḱos 'bear' - aršu - ɔɣšu
wlkʷos 'wolf' - ulku - ulku
h2égros 'field' - agru - ɔgu

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Kurēi ɛvi, kyośu ulanā ńə śə yətʰ, śoččuŋ pʰyečit, ɛ̄nu ži kuɣu vɔžu vyožəntu ɛ̄nuki myəčʰa bɔɣu, ɛ̄nuki žmyoru ōču byoɣəntu. Ɛvi tu śəččɛ̄mu vɔ̄kyət: čēɣ ɔgutaɣ mɛ̄ śoččuŋ ɔžəntu ańoɣu vitsəntɛ̄. Śəččō tu vɔ̄kənt: čluʒ́i, avɛ̄, čēɣ ʒ́i ɔgutaɣ uŋmɛ̄ vitsəntma. Arēɣ, pɛci, ɔ̄yu uɣ ulanā śebi kuńńɔ̄ci ru gyommu vyotsʰu ńeži ɔ̄yu ulanā yəcʰi. Tas čəčlū ɔ̄yi ɔčʰu bucət.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:07 am 
Sumerul
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Old sig:
Qapi Mongkoush nurrumsh ship 'o'o shi shdug kouzou dlaha.
Shdug nganxish ship tla' mang fushish Qapi Mongkoush.
Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo.

pl bl > kl gl; again, why not

New sig:
heaven.NOM.SG thing-ACC.PL innumerable-ACC.PL nurture-INF man-DAT.PL bring_forth-FREQ-3SG.PRES
nothing.NOM human-LOC.PL with_which heaven-DAT.SG recompense-INF be.3SG.IPFV
kill-2SG.IMP

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:15 pm 
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* PH clusters > P_h, merging with sP
* epenthetic schwa merges with *e as in Greek
* maybe unstressed o > a instead of u?
* maybe different outcomes for syllabic resonants?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:31 am 
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Many IE languages replace thematic nom.pl ending *-o:s with -oi. Pannonian does not do this, but it does replace the *athematic* nom.pl ending *-es with -oi. These are fairly phonetically similar in PP: -'i vs. -ai.

The thematic animate acc.pl ending is from *-oms > *-ons, not *-o:m.

Evidently there is a present active participle *-ent-h2. I don't see why this shouldn't be preserved.

The instrumental singular ending is from *-eh1 except in some glide-final stems.

The locative is preserved in Pannonian as the base for the innovated locative forms, and also provides the new thematic dative plural -ais'i.

*-ih2 *-uh2 become -ya: -wa:. The genitive singular is innovated as per Italo-Celtic, but retains the athematic-thematic alternation, so -aya: ~ -ya:.

actually i am probably not going to do any of this

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:58 pm 
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Nortaneous wrote:
Many IE languages replace thematic nom.pl ending *-o:s with -oi. Pannonian does not do this, but it does replace the *athematic* nom.pl ending *-es with -oi. These are fairly phonetically similar in PP: -'i vs. -ai.

This in particular is very bizarre.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:08 am 
Sumerul
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beeˀkoo beeˀči beeˀčit
beeˀkwa beeˀšam beeˀšaam
beeˀkämi beeˀkäći beeˀkõnt

beˀk beˀč beˀčit
beˀko beˀšu beˀšå
beˀkam beˀkać beˀkõnd

bek beč bečit
beko beš beša
bekam bekać bekõnd

bek beč bečit
beko bekot bektand
bekam bekać bekõnd

---

bééˀkam béékh bééˀš
biiˀčə́ biiˀčám biiˀčáám
biiˀčamyə́ biiˀšə́ biiˀčə́nt

beˀku beˀx beˀš
biˀč biˀču biˀčå
biˀčä'mi biˀš biˀčə́nt

bek bech beš
bič bič bičå
bičäm biš bičõnd

bek bek bekit
bič bič bičå
bičäm bikät bičõnd

---

booˀka booˀša booˀči
? ? ?
biiˀkamyə́ biiˀčə́ biiˀkee

buˀka buˀša buˀči
? ? ?
biˀkä'mi biˀč biˀči

buka bukat buč
biko bikot biktand
bikäm bičat biči

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:31 am 
Sumerul
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I've been reading up on Avestan so here are some possible sound changes, especially for PP > NP

V:(j w)V > V:(j w)V
a:i > ai in closed syllables, > O:i > oi in open syllables (low-mid and high-mid don't contrast in diphthongs)
ai > æ only in closed syllables? (currently applies everywhere but word-finally, where ai is retained)
e: i: > ej 1j in open syllables (ej also before coronals, or possibly extended by analogy in conjugations characterized by e:, e.g. the subj. sg. in -ei -ei -eid)
dz` (from g') > z` > l`, maybe written <rl> or <rd> and maybe merging with <rd> as in some North Germanic, in which case rt > s` (or K, as has been reconstructed for Avestan; dialectal variation can occur here, but this would have to be before nonrhoticity) -- also possibly nonpostvocalic r > l` instead of j/w, so rluop 'turnip'
[did PIE even have r-initial roots? both of the ones on Wiktionary look fake. Latin re:te > Pannonian *re:ta > NP rleita 'net', let's say. and Latin re:si:na > Pannonian r@s\i:na > rlësiëina]
PC > PhC > FC for some C (e.g. *pnew-mn > fnauman > fruoma 'breath')

the verb conjugation really needs to be redone but that can be done later

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:04 am 
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f

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:50 am 
Sumerul
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some words, I think these are right. -@J > -in, -@l > u, -an in the -an-declension > -ê

žëmê 'human'
ˀanië 'man'
kirå 'woman'
candžå 'tongue'
sianië 'blood' (irregular; *iha- > *hya-)
čaaˀna 'grain'
ačka 'field'
ałåsël 'plow'
meˀd 'mead'
eimê 'seed'
güˀk 'yoke'
yačča 'horse'
yåkin 'liver'

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:50 pm 
Sumerul
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a church is a ˀkleisia, which is maybe too conservative. a Protestant church, however, is a... hm, relative chronology. it is from Kirche, because Germans. presumably aspirates were already gone by then, but maybe they stuck around for a long time! that would give some fun borrowing patterns. assuming this is loaned before German r-vocalization, we could have either chiichë or kirchë.

on the other hand, maybe there is some form of *kiriko ~ *kirihho ~ *chirihho borrowed earlier, which would probably give some sort of *xirikk(h)o-type form, which would become what, cherlˀkë /xeɭkʼə/

maybe Pannonian should develop some Englishoid syllabification pathologies. hm.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:05 pm 
Sumerul
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OK, now, the three most difficult verbs.

The Pannonian verb has, in theory, seven principal parts: the present imperfective, the present perfective, the past imperfective, the past perfective, the future, the subjunctive, and the infinitive.

Pannonian, being essentially Satem-Germanic, generally fails to push this system to its limits. Most verbs have only three: the present imperfective (< present), the present perfective (< aorist), and the past perfective (< stative). Everything else is regular. And in the 'weak verbs', everything is predictable from the present imperfective.

However, 'come', 'go', and 'be' do push this system to at least something resembling its limits, because they are suppletive. The past perfective of 'come' is, for whatever reason, from Latin venio, which was nativized and became a strong verb by analogy. Hey man Albanian did it too. Presumably *h1ludh- was defective.

Also I've decided that e > @ / -NP, so yesént instead of yesyént

Come:
- Present imperfective: *h2wés-e-e- ('will stay' < 'is coming')
- Present perfective: *h1ludh-é-
- Past imperfective: *h2wes-e-e- (this part is regular)
- Past perfective: veni
- Future: *h1ludh-é-e-
- Subjunctive: *h2us-yéh1- / *h2us-ih1-
- Verbal noun: *h1ludh-

Go:
- Present imperfective: *stéygh-e-
- Present perfective: *h1éy-s-
- Past imperfective: *h3r-eh1- (conroot in accord with Albanian rri; could of course be related to the real root *h3reg'-)
- Past perfective: *h1e~h1óy- / *h1e~h1y-
- Future: *h3ér-e-e-
- Subjunctive: *stigh-yéh1- / *stigh-ih1-
- Verbal noun: *h3ér- / *stéygh-

Be:
- Present imperfective: *bhuH-yé- (+ -i except in 1sg)
- Present perfective: *bhuH-
- Past imperfective: *h1es- (also the source of the regular past imperfective inflection)
- Past perfective: *gʷéh₂- (the source of the regular past perfective inflection)
- Future: *gʷéh₂-e-,
- Subjunctive: *h1s-yéh1- / *h1s-ih1-
- Verbal noun: *gʷéh₂-

This gives, I think, the following conjugations:

Code:
Come: (elúduhai)
  Pres Ipfv             Pres Pfv           
  SG        PL          SG        PL         
1 avyésē    avyésōmyi   yeludō'   yeludyomi 
2 avyésēs   avyésōtyi   yeludyés  yeludyotyi
3 avyésēt   avyésōnt    yeludyét  yeludyont 
  Past Ipfv             Past Pfv
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 avyésēdām avyésēdāmyi vanya     venyamyé
2 avyésēdās avyésēdātyi vanyat    venyé
3 avyésēdāt avyésēdānt  vanyi     venyē'r
  Future                Subjunctive
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 eludē'    eludō'myi   usyē'm    usyīmyé
2 eludē's   eludō'tyi   usyē's    usyītyé
3 eludē't   eludō'nt    usyē't    usyē'nd

Go: (áruhai/tháiguhai)
  Pres Ipfv             Pres Pfv
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 tháigō    tháigamyi   áisem     syismyé
2 tháigis   tháigatyi   áis       syistyé
3 tháigit   tháigand    áith      syisénd
  Past Ipfv             Past Pfv
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 arē'm     arē'myi     syā'iya   syēimyé
2 arē's     arē'tyi     syā'ita   syēiyé
3 arē't     arē'nd      syā'i     syēiyē'r
  Future                Subjunctive
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 árē       árōmyi      thyigyē'm thigyīmyé
2 árēs      árōtyi      thyigyē's thigyītyé
3 árēt      árōnt       thyigyē't thigyē'nd

Be: (gʷāhai)
  Pres Ipfv             Pres Pfv
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 būyō'     būyámyi     būm       būmyé
2 būyésyi   būyátyi     būs       būtyé
3 būyétyi   būyánt      būt       būnt
  Past Ipfv             Past Pfv
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 syésam    ēmyé        gʷām      gʷamyé
2 syes      yetyé       gʷās      gʷatyé
3 syeth     yesént      gʷāt      gʷant
  Future                Subjunctive
  SG        PL          SG        PL
1 gʷā'iyō   gʷā'imyi    esyē'm    esyīmyé
2 gʷā'is    gʷā'ityi    esyē's    esyītyé
3 gʷā'it    gʷā'int     esyē't    esyē'nd

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:59 pm 
Sumerul
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here is the tower of babel in probably bad gejaehl hlu

Code:
niɲɤhli yihl  hɤɲ      ⁿgɔ ɤ-  ru  -lɔ
world   whole language one PST-have-3 

ʔɔ   ⁿdɤɲ    kʰɤ ʔwes ɤ-le    -ʔɯŋ   
then mankind DEF east PST-move-go_to

ʔɔ   çinɔ   yi    ɤ-  çɤ  -hli   -lɔ
then Shinar plain PST-find-settle-3 

ʔɔ   ⁿdɤɲ    ɤ-  wɤɲ-yi   
then mankind PST-say-REFL

yæ    ⁿbɔ -wu  -sɔ  -h   -æ
brick make-bake-JUSS-COLL-1

yæ    wɔ         hnɔ  ɤ-  myɔ-lɔ
brick instead_of rock PST-use-3

ⁿgɔs tʰu wɔ         ⁿdɤy
and  tar instead_of mortar

ʔɔ   ⁿdɤɲ    ɤ-  wɤɲ-yi   
then mankind PST-say-REFL

hmæ-  yo  -ⁿbɔ -sɔ  -hæ
BEN.1-city-make-JUSS-COLL.1

ɗo    li  ʔyɔ yæʔɯŋ li  hmæ-  ⁿbɔ -sɔ  -hæ
tower REL sky reach REL BEN.1-make-JUSS-COLL.1

ⁿdɤ         chɯ ɗwi    niɲɤhli yihl  ɔy-  tɔw
in_order_to NEG across world   whole PASS-scatter

ʔwe ɠom ⁿdɤ         li  hmɔⁿgu-  ⁿbɔ -ɗɯ   -sæ   i    ⁿdɤɲ    ɗo    yo   sweʔ li  ɤ-  ⁿbyɔ-le  -lɔ
but God in_order_to REL BEN.3(2)-make-be_in-NONF POSS mankind tower city see  REL PST-down-move-3 

ɤ-  wɤɲ-lɔ kʰili lihlɔ ⁿdɤɲ    ⁿgɔ yoʔ-sæ   hɤɲ      ⁿgɔ ru  -sæ   ⁿbɔ -ɗɯ   -hlæ-kʰi
PST-say-3  if    they  mankind one COP-NONF language one have-NONF make-be_in-can-COND

li        rɔhl'yɔh i    lihlɔ çwi      mi- rwæ -hlæ-kʰi
if...then nothing  POSS them  EGO.IPFV FUT-fail-can-COND

hmæ-  ⁿbyɔ-ⁿbo -le  -sɔ  -yi   tu
BEN.1-down-CAUS-move-JUSS-REFL EGO.PFV

hɤɲ      i    lihlɔ   ⁿdɤ         li  lihlɔ chɯ-wi-       -yi  -sæ   li  hmæ-  ⁿbo -hwin -sɔ   
language POSS mankind in_order_to REL them  NEG-understand-REFL-NONF REL BEN.1-CAUS-split-JUSS

ʔɔ   ɠom  lihlɔ ʔihlirɔrɔ                 ɤ-  ⁿbo -ʔwirɔrɔ-lɔ
then lord them  outward_in_all_directions PST-CAUS-scatter-3

ʔɔ   lihlɔ yo   ɯy     hmɔ  -ɤ  -mɤ  -la
then they  city POSS.3 BEN.3-PST-stop-3

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:40 am 
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i have been working on getting the sound changes into an SCA. the ones that are still around do not deal very well with suprasegmentals

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:16 pm 
Sumerul
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from Greek. q k > k g, c > ng because gk convention. san is preserved i guess. the u-looking thing is a ~bindrune for y + schwa, which is a p common sequence since it's the regular outcome of stressed e. it probably becomes its own letter eventually

the text isn't quite right but w/e

nasal vowels haven't developed yet so the 'nasality' splits in the first vowel shift are actually just conditioned by following nasals


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:34 am 
Sumerul
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For the noun declensions, here's what the SCA spits out:

More: show
Code:
+================================+================================+
| Acrostatic root noun           | Amphikinetic root noun         |
+------------ nókʷt-s -----------+------------- pṓd-s ------------+
| NOM nákʷt -s     nákʷʲt-is     | NOM pṓts -s     páts-is        |
| ACC nákʷt -aṃ    nákʷt -ans    | ACC páts -aṃ    páts-ans       |
| INS nʲə́kʷt-ē     nʲə́kʷt-ami    | INS pits -ḗˀ    pits-mí        |
| DAT nʲə́kʷt-ay    nʲə́kʷt-ūṃs    | DAT pits -áy    pits-más       |
| GEN nʲə́kʷt-s     nʲə́kʷt-ōṃ     | GEN pits -ʲə́s   pits-ṓˀṃ       |
| LOC nʲə́kʷt-i     nʲə́kʷt-su     | LOC pʲə́ts-i     pits-sú        |
+================================+================================+
| Amphikinetic n-stem            | Hysterokinetic n-stem          |
+------------ léymō -------------+------------- uksḗn ------------+
| NOM láym-   -ō   láym-aṃɾ-is   | NOM ukš-ḗn      ukš-áṃɾ-is     |
| ACC láym-aṃɾ-aṃ  láym-aṃɾ-ans  | ACC ukš-áṃɾ-aṃ  ukš-áṃɾ-ans    |
| INS lim -n  -ḗˀ  lim -an -mí   | INS ukš-aṃɾ-ḗˀ  ukš-an -mí     |
| DAT lim -n  -áy  lim -an -más  | DAT ukš-aṃɾ-áy  ukš-an -más    |
| GEN liṃ -n  -ʲə́s lim -aṃɾ-ṓˀṃ  | GEN ukš-aṃɾ-ʲə́s ukš-aṃɾ-ṓˀṃ    |
| LOC lim -áṃɾ-i   lim -an -zú   | LOC ukš-áṃɾ-i   ukš-an -zú     |
+================================+================================+
| Prot. & amph. neuter r/n       | Amphikinetic m-stem            |
+------ wódr̥ ------- wédōr ------+------------ dʰéǵʰōm -----------+
| NOM wáts-ar      wʲə́ts-ōr      | NOM dʲə́ǵōṃ                     |
| ACC wáts-ar      wʲə́ts-ōr      | ACC dʲə́ǵōṃ                     |
| INS uts -ʲə́ˀn    uts  -n  -ḗˀ  | INS ǵum   -ḗˀ                  |
| DAT uts -áṃɾ -ay uts  -n  -áy  | DAT ǵum   -áy                  |
| GEN uts -án  -s  uts  -n  -ʲə́s | GEN ǵum   -ʲə́s                 |
| LOC uts -áṃɾ -i  uts  -áṃɾ-i   | LOC ǵum   -ʲə́ši                |
+================================+================================+
| Proterokinetic ti-stem         | Proterokinetic tu-stem         |
+------------ méntis ------------+------------ ǵéwstus -----------+
| NOM mʲə́n-t-i-š   mʲə́n-t-ī-s    | NOM čáwš-t-u-š   čáwš-t-aw-is  |
| ACC mʲə́n-t-i-ṃ   mʲə́n-t-i-ns   | ACC čáwš-t-u-ṃ   čáwš-t-u -ns  |
| INS man-t -ī́ˀ    man-t -í -mi  | INS čuš -t-ū́ˀ    čuš -t-ú -mi  |
| DAT man-t -ī́     man-t -í -mas | DAT čuš -t-áw-ay čuš -t-ú -mas |
| GEN man-t -áy-š  man-t -áy-ōṃ  | GEN čuš -t-áw-š  čuš -t-áw-ōṃ  |
| LOC man-t -áy    man-t -í -šu  | LOC čuš -t-áw-i  čuš -t-ú -šu  |
+================================+================================+
| Prot. neut. u-stem             | Athematic neuter s-stem        |
+------------- dóru -------------+------------ nébʰos ------------+
| NOM tsár-u     tsár-ū          | NOM nʲə́b-a-s     nʲə́b-ō-s      |
| ACC tsár-u     tsár-ū          | ACC nʲə́b-a-s     nʲə́b-ō-s      |
| INS tsr -ū́ˀ    tsr -ú -mi      | INS nʲə́b-i-s-ē   nʲə́b-ē- -mi   |
| DAT tsr -áw-ay tsr -ú -mas     | DAT nʲə́b-i-s-ay  nʲə́b-ē- -mas  |
| GEN tsr -áw-š  tsr -áw-ōṃ      | GEN nʲə́b-i-s-as  nʲə́b-i-s-ōṃ   |
| LOC tsr -áw-i  tsr -ú -šu      | LOC nʲə́b-i-š-i   nʲə́b-i-š-u    |
+================================+================================+==========================+
| Proterokinetic h2-stem         | Hysterokinetic h2-stem         | eh2-stem                 |
+------------- gʷḗn -------------+----------- dn̥ǵʰwéh₂s ----------+-------- dʰoHnéh₂ --------+
| NOM kʷḗn         kʷʲə́ˀn-a -s   | NOM tsanžž-ā́ˀ-s  tsanžž-ā́ˀ-as  | NOM dōn-ā́ˀ    dōn-ā́ˀ-as  |
| ACC kʷʲə́ˀn-a -ṃ  kʷʲə́ˀn-a -ns  | ACC tsanžž-ā́ˀ-ṃ  tsanžž-ā́ˀ-ns  | ACC dōn-ā́ˀ-ṃ  dōn-ā́ˀ-ns  |
| INS kʷn   -ā́ˀ-ē  kʷn   -ā́ˀ-mi  | INS tsanž -ū -ḗˀ tsanž -ū -mí  | INS dōn-ā́ˀ-ē  dōn-ā́ˀ-mi  |
| DAT kʷn   -ā́ˀ-ay kʷn   -ā́ˀ-mas | DAT tsanž -ū -áy tsanž -ū -más | DAT dōn-ā́ˀ-ay dōn-ā́ˀ-mas |
| GEN kʷn   -ā́ˀ-s  kʷn   -ā́ˀ-ōṃ  | GEN tsanž -ū -ás tsanž -ū -ṓˀṃ | GEN dōn-ā́ˀ-s  dōn-ā́ˀ-ōṃ  |
| LOC kʷn   -ā́ˀ-y  kʷn   -ā́ˀ-šu  | LOC tsanžž-ā́ˀ-y  tsanž -ū -sú  | LOC dōn-ā́ˀ-y  dōn-ā́ˀ-su  |
+================================+================================+==========================+
| Thematic o-stem                | Neuter o-stem                  |
+------------ nisdós ------------+----------- wérǵom -------------+
| NOM nīts-á-s    nīts-ṓ -s      | NOM wʲə́rḱ-a-ṃ   wʲə́rḱ-ā        |
| ACC nīts-á-ṃ    nīts-á -ns     | ACC wʲə́rḱ-a-ṃ   wʲə́rḱ-ā        |
| INS nīts-ṓˀ     nīts-ṓ -yš     | INS wʲə́rḱ-ō     wʲə́rḱ-ō-yš     |
| DAT nīts-ṓy     nīts-á -mas    | DAT wʲə́rḱ-ō-y   wʲə́rḱ-ū-ṃs     |
| GEN nīts-á-sʲa  nīts-ṓˀ-ṃ      | GEN wʲə́rḱ-a-sʲa wʲə́rḱ-ō-ṃ      |
| LOC nīts-á-y    nīts-á -yšu    | LOC wʲə́rḱ-a-y   wʲə́rḱ-a-yšu    |
+================================+================================+==========================+
| Pronominal masculine           | Pronominal neuter              | Pronominal feminine      |
+-------------- so --------------+------------- tod --------------+---------- sih2 ----------+
| NOM sa          tay            | NOM tats        tā             | NOM sā/sī      tās       |
| ACC taṃ         tans           | ACC tats        tā             | ACC tāṃ        tāns      |
| INS ?           ?              | INS ?           ?              | INS ?          ?         |
| DAT tōmay       taymi          | DAT tōmay       taymi          | DAT tasʲāay    tāmi      |
| GEN tasʲa       tayšō̆ṃ         | GEN tasʲa       tayšō̆ṃ         | GEN tasʲās     tāsō̆ṃ     |
| LOC tōmi        tayšu          | LOC tōmi        tayšu          | LOC ?          tāsu      |
+================================+================================+==========================+


But that's a lot to take in. Let's try to categorize this mess into declensions. And apply some analogy.

The first declension, of course, is the eh2-stems. Let's kill the stupid vowel clusters.
Code:
NOM -0/āˀ -āˀs
ACC -ą̄ˀ   -āˀns
INS -āˀ   -āˀmi
DAT -āˀy  -ą̄ˀs (< āˀmas, with m loss between nonfront vowels)
GEN -āˀs  -ą̄ˀw (<ą̄ˀǭ)
LOC -āˀy  -āˀsu

And the second declension is the thematics.
Code:
NOM -as   -ōs   | -ą    -āˀ
ACC -ą    -ans  | -ą    -āˀ
INS -ōˀ   -ōyš  | -ōˀ   -ōyš
DAT -ōy   -ų̄s   | -ōy   -ų̄s
GEN -asʲa -ǭˀ   | -asʲa -ǭˀ
LOC -ay   -ayšu | -ay   -ayšu

The neuters could end up taking feminine inflection. Or they could end up not doing that.

The third declension has a problem: the outcome depends on whether the root ends in a plosive cluster. Let's just analogize that in favor of "no", which has the added benefit of distinguishing the declensions a little more. The resulting ugly consonant clusters will be eliminated soon anyway. And, of course, the nominative singular varies wildly.
Code:
NOM       -is
ACC -ą    -ans
INS -ēˀ   -mi
DAT -ay   -mas
GEN -(e)s -ǭˀ
LOC -i    -su

There are, of course, third-declension neuters. They have no distinct accusative, and sometimes no plural.

Unlike in Latin, the *-tis stems don't end up in the third declension; they end up in the fourth. Here we have everything that has -š in the nominative singular, and some things that don't (e.g. tsaru 'tree'.)

Code:
NOM -iš  -īs   | -uš   -awis | -u    -ū
ACC -į   -ins  | -ų    -uns  | -u    -ū
INS -īˀ  -imi  | -ūˀ   -umi  | -ūˀ   -umi
DAT -ī   -imas | -away -ų̄s   | -away -ų̄s (< -umas)
GEN -ayš -ayǭ  | -awš  -awǭ  | -awš  -awǭ
LOC -ay  -išu  | -awi  -ušu  | -awi  -ušu


In the grand tradition of doing stupid shit and calling it a fifth declension (hello Latin), the fifth declension is the athematic os-stems, which are productive. These might look third-declension now, but just wait until s > 0...

(Note that z > : after V[-front]mV[-front] > V:, so you don't get reduction here.)

Code:
NOM -ōs   -asis  | NOM -as   -ōs
ACC -asą  -asans | ACC -as   -ōs
INS -asēˀ -ōmi   | INS -isēˀ -ēmi
DAT -asay -ōmas  | DAT -isay -ēmas
GEN -asas -asǭ   | GEN -isas -isǭ
LOC -aši  -osu   | LOC -iši  -išu


And here is the declension of the so-pronominal. The instrumental has to be innovated. Let's say it was just *-h1.
Code:
NOM -a    -ay   | -īˀ/āˀ -āˀs  | -ats
ACC -ą    -ans  | -ą̄ˀ    -āˀns | -ats
INS -ōˀ   -ōyš  | -āˀ    -āˀmi |
DAT -ay   -aymi | -āˀy   -āˀmi |
GEN -asʲa -ayšǭ | -āˀs   -āˀsǭ |
LOC -ōˀmi -ayšu | -āˀy   -āˀsu |

The ey-pronominal is slightly different.
Code:
NOM áy    ĩs    | ī́ˀ     ī́ˀyas  | íts
ACC íṃ    íns   | ī́ˀyaṃ  ī́ˀyans | íts
INS ī́ˀ    áymi  | ī́ˀyē   ī́ˀmi   |
DAT ḗmay  áymas | yə́sʲāy ī́ˀmas  |
GEN yə́sʲa áyšōṃ | yə́sʲās ī́ˀsōṃ  |
LOC ḗmʲi  áyšu  | yə́sʲāy ī́ˀsu   |


The sixth declension consists of a few fossilized duals and *-ih2, which happened to be identical in the nom/acc and vaguely semantically similar and nothing else ends in -i:. It takes plural agreement and does not inflect for number. It would take glottalization except the ending never bears stress.

Code:
NOM -ī
ACC -ī
INS -ę̄
DAT -ę̄y
GEN -awš
LOC -awš

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:17 am 
Sumerul
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Latin to Pannonian declensions in loans:

1 > 1
2M > 4US
2N > 2N
3 > 3 or 4IS depending
4 > 4US
5 > there won't be any fifth-declension loans into Pannonian until whenever scientific terminology in -ie:s starts getting coined and borrowed, so this can wait

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:47 am 
Sumerul
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We have a problem. This is probably the language of the Pannonii, but where do we get that from? IE has *pon-yo- 'swamp', but this gives PP *panya-, not *panno-. We can take the *-yós ending as added by Latin (as long as the adjective ends up in the second declension), but where does the -n- come from? It can't come from *-nós, because this would give -ɾa. If we assume that there was a dialect where *y followed *w in conditioning gemination rather than palatalizing, we'd get [pannãɾ-], which is maybe close enough; and later on /ã/ merges with schwa, which could explain the -o-. But this seems unsatisfactory.

Another possibility is to change the name. The Pannonii were evidently Celticized anyway. It would be possible to identify the Pannonians with the Cimmerians (Kimmérioi), if a suitable etymology can be found. We'd need something like *[k|g]ʷe(y)[r|m]-m- or -e(y)m-w-, which we don't have, and anyway their names were Iranian and they're a bit too far east.

The Varciani are alleged to be Celtic, but they're sparsely attested enough that that could just be wrong, and they're roughly in the right place. This would go back to *[gʷ|w][a|ə|jə][ɾ|r](V)k[ʲ|y|i]-, so we'd need a root along the lines of *gʷʰV[r|n] or *wV[r|n].

We have *gʷʰon-o- 'slayer', which is maybe a bit edgy, and *gʷʰer- 'warm', which could maybe tie into the legends of firebirds in the Hercynian Forest. Which sounds a bit similar; maybe we can do something with that. If we assume an early (before the development of *f) Celtic loan of *ɸerkuniā... it'd have initial stress, so it could give *w(ʲ)ə́[r|ɾ]kunyā. We'll need to move *u > *ə / _N$ up a bit in the chronology to get *w(ʲ)ə́Rkənyā, and then maybe there's some metathesis somewhere along the line and we get *w(ʲ)ə́Rkyənā.

There's also the Mazaei (Μα(ι)ζαῖοι), who have the advantage of actually being in Pannonia. We'd need *m-ǵʰ, and the only thing we have is *meiǵ(ʰ)- 'grain'. "The grain farmers"? Boring.

Of course, "Germania" probably doesn't have anything to do with anything the Germanic tribes actually called themselves, and neither does "Celtic", which just means "warlike". "Russia" is from "oarsmen", and "Saxon" is from "knife". Given the names of the Germanic tribes, maybe *gʷʰon-o- isn't so far out; it'd give *gʷāɾ-a-, so now we just need *-k-, which is a hard problem.

Whatever. Let's go with *w(ʲ)ə́Rkyənā. Maybe early confusion of words can explain the firebird legend, if it's borrowed with *r. So probably the native name of the country is... what happens to *wʲ again? /ˈvəːkiɲa/, probably.

Wait that sucks, what if they're grain farmers? *maižanaya? > /mæʐanaja/? Also boring.

What's the firebird again? We have fire, which could be from *gʷʰer- or *péh₂wr̥ or h₁n̥gʷnis. Maybe the firebird legend bounced around with some fire-word from *gʷʰer for a while, and then a bird is of course a *bʰreidʰos. So we're probably dealing with a *gʷʰerbʰréidʰos or a *h₁n̥gʷnibʰréidʰos > /giːgǿˀda/ or a /ɕeŋgəɾgǿˀda/. And of course we have -n- for adjectivals and -ya for place names, and place names tend to get reduced, so maybe sengödania.

Sure why not.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:33 am 
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script


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Letters, in order. First row:
a < alpha
ai < alpha + iota ligature
au < alpha + upsilon ligature
b < beta
ng < gamma, by the Greek convention of writing /N/ as gamma -- Old Pannonian had phonemic /N/
d < delta
z < delta + rho ligature
e < epsilon; it rotated the other way from in Latin
w < digamma; as epsilon
zh < zeta; /z/ hadn't developed yet
h < eta
r < I forget. replaced theta after it fell out of use (/t_h/ merged with /s/)

Second row:
i < iota
oe < some sort of ligature, doesn't really matter even in-world
g < kappa, since gamma was used for /N/
l < lambda
lj < lambda + iota ligature
m < mu
n < nu
u < omicron; there was no /o/, only /o:/, which later raised to /u/
p < pi
[sh < san should be here but I forgot to include it. it probably looks like Cyrillic M]
k < qoppa; the resemblance to phi is coincidental

Third row:
lh (R) < rho
s < sigma
sj < sigma + iota ligature
t < tau
cj < tau + iota ligature
ue < upsilon
f < phi
ch < xi; cf. Khotanese use of Sanskrit ksh for a retroflex affricate
x < psi, which was apparently used by some variants of early Greek for /k_h/
schwa < innovated letter, probably iota with a dot
o < schwa + upsilon ligature, or really bindrune -- replaces the lower vertical line of upsilon (back when it looked like Y) with the diagonal line of earlier forms of schwa. the (conservative) capital letter looks like Cyrillic Y

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:47 am 
Sumerul
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man, everyone has a future English, don't they

-- BEGINNING --

/æ a e ə ɔ i ɚ u/
/aj ej oj ij/
/æw əw uw/
/ar er or ir/
/eə əj æj/

æ e > æj ej / _g _ŋ (already completed)
æ > eə / _m _n _ŋ (active)
ɔ > oə except _l _g _ŋ
əl al ɔl > ɔ
əw > o / _(...)l
æ > eə / _C[+voice] except _w
æw > æ
ar or > ɔr ur
əw > ew except when unstressed
aj > a
e > i / _m _n

/æ a ɔ e ə o i ɚ u/
/ej oj ij/
/ew uw/
/ɔr er ir ur/
/eə oə əj æj/

ej uw > æj iw
j > 0 / _iw
l > w / V_C, except ul > u
l > w / V[j w]ə_
ɚw > ɚ
æj ij > aj uj

æ e > e i (except in diphthongs)
ɔ > a, but ɔr > or
unstressed əw > u
æw > aw
eə oə > e u

r > : / V_, ɾ otherwise
a ə ɚ > a: a a
various consonant simplifications
end of L2 pressure, global collapse, deindustralization
development of geminates from loss of devoiced vowels
tonogenesis
~mazurzenie
loss of medial d
interaction between tone and stress which would be tedious to work out; presumably the stress system is folded into tonal contrasts

da nùù wį ą na san wadzìˈpiwrį ˈwìtsą wa da ˈʂąąga wį a ˈtʂewla kąj aˈląą tsį a wųų xéw || daj àˈruja da da wą iw fà ˈssuja in ˈmajkį na ˈtʂewla táj ù ì xéw su buj kąˈsiraa ˈʂąąga ą na aa || dzį na nùù wį bliw à òò à uj kù bá da muu uj bliw da muu xèw da ˈtʂewla ˈfoa ì xéw aˈrę įˈsè an á lè da nùù win gaj á da atsį || dzį da są sęw é wųų ą ˈmujdzáli da ˈtʂewla tú ù ì xéw || ą sew da nùù wį wà aˈblààa ta kąˈfì dá da są wa da ˈʂųga a da tsiw

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:12 am 
Sumerul
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bump

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 am 
Sumerul
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Code:
    Indicative Subjunctive Optative   Imperative       Participle
1SG línkų      línkʷō      linkḗˀ̨
2SG línkʷš     línksi      linkḗˀx    lingí
3SG línkʷt     línkići     linkḗˀt
1DU linkə́      línkū       linkīɥə́
2DU linkʷtą́    línkići     linkītą́    linkʷtą́
3DU linkʷtą̃    línkići     linkītą̃    linkʷtą̃
1PL linkumyə́   línkʷama    linkīmyə́
2PL linkʷćə́    línkići     linkīćə́    linkʷćə́             
3PL linkə́ŋk    línkʷanći   linkīyə́ŋk  linkə́ntu         linkʷáŋk linkunćə́x lyinkʷánćī lyinkunćā́ˀx

1SG linkʷʰár   línkʷōar    linkīyá
2SG linkʷtʰár  línkitʰar   linkītʰá
3SG linkʷtár   línkitar    linkītá
1DU linkkṓda   línkʷawōda  linkīɥə́da
1PL linkumṓda  línkʷamōda  linkīmyə́da
2PL lingʷdaɥə́  línkidaɥi   linkīdaɥə́  lingʷdaɥə́
3PL linkuntár  línkʷantar  linkīrá                     linkumʲɾá

1SG láykų      láykʷō      likʷyḗˀ̨
2SG láykʷš     láyksi      likḗˀ     ligí
3SG láykʷt     láykići     likḗˀt    láykʷtu
1DU likḱə́      láykʷū      likīɥə́
2DU likʷtą́     láykići     likītą́    likʷtą́
3DU likʷtą̃     láykići     likītą̃    likʷtą̃
1PL likʷmyə́    láykʷama    likīmyə́
2PL likʷćə́     láykići     likīćə́    likʷćə́
3PL likyə́ŋk    láykʷanći   likīyə́ŋk  likyə́ntu        likʷáŋk, likunćə́x, likʷántī, likućā́ˀ


It'll be regularized later, and there are still problems with the nasal rules and evidently a few others. (likḱə́?) Tilde is probably a rewrite rule I forgot.

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:28 am 
Sumerul
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I like the idea of unstressed mid vowels not raising before /s/. Maybe /e o/ merge to schwa, via low-mid vowels.

So, the standard average forms:
Code:
Pres     Fut       Subj       Imp
byə́rō    byə́rō     byə́rōyṃ
byə́rəx   byə́rēsi   byə́rayš    byə́re
byə́rets  byə́rēti   byə́rayt    byə́retu
byə́rawi  byə́rōwx   byə́rawi
byə́retaṃ byə́rētyəx byə́raytaṃ  byə́retaṃ
byə́retāṃ byə́rētyəx byə́raytāṃ  byə́retāṃ
byə́rami  byə́rōməx  byə́raymi
byə́reti  byə́rēti   byə́rayti   byə́reti
byə́raŋk  byə́rōnti  byə́rōyŋk   byə́rantu

(Note that *e doesn't raise adjacent to -r-.)

What next? Well, there's -Eyeti...
Code:
baráyō   baráyō     baráyōyṃ
barĩx    baráyēsi   baráyayš   barĩ
barĩt    baráyēti   baráyayt   barĩtu
baráyawi baráyōwx   baráyawi
barĩtaṃ  baráyētyəx baráyaytaṃ barĩtaṃ
barĩtāṃ  baráyētyəx baráyaytāṃ barĩtāṃ
baráyami baráyōməx  baráyaymi
barĩti   baráyēti   baráyayti  barĩti
baráyant baráyōnti  baráyōynt  baráyantu


Let's see what a -yEti verb looks like.
Code:
kʰapyṓˀ   kʰapyṓˀ    kʰapyṓˀyṃ
kʰapyə́x   kʰapyḗsi   kʰapyáyš   kʰapyə́
kʰapyə́t   kʰapyḗti   kʰapyáyt   kʰapyə́tu
kʰapyáwi  kʰapyṓwx   kʰapyáwi
kʰapyə́taṃ kʰapyḗtyəx kʰapyáytaṃ kʰapyə́taṃ
kʰapyə́tāṃ kʰapyḗtyəx kʰapyáytāṃ kʰapyə́tāṃ
kʰapyámi  kʰapyṓməx  kʰapyáymi
kʰapyə́ti  kʰapyḗti   kʰapyáyti  kʰapyə́ti
kʰapyánt  kʰapyṓnti  kʰapyṓˀynt kʰapyántu

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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