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zompist bboard • View topic - Constructing a proper descendant of English

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:37 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:02 am 
Sumerul
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There are a few things I disagree with there:

* /w/ probably wouldn't merge with /v/; it's realized with pharyngealization, so it'd be more likely to merge with /l/ somehow, or maybe even /r/.
* /θr/ is already shifting to [θɾ], but who knows if that'll last.
* Everything with /r/ is totally insane but I guess it could happen in a thousand years? Non-rhoticity seems more likely, but that's boring. /er ir/ might merge first. (I once went into a CVS to buy earplugs and the cashier thought I'd said 'hair plugs' the first two or three times I asked.)
* I don't know why future Englishes always insist on adding uvulars.

I had a future English once. Maybe I should revive it. But the vowels were a pain in the ass. EDIT:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:52 pm 
Sumerul
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At least in my dialect, even though it's not GA, a future merger of /l/ and /w/, or at least a conditional merger of the two (e.g. keeping the two separate initially and in the onsets of stressed syllables, but merging them elsewhere) seems very probable, considering that /l/ has [ɰ] (and occasionally [w]) in onsets (except when stressed and initial, where it not infrequently preserved as [ʟ̞]) and various rounded and unrounded back glides in codas and unstressed intervocalic onsets (determined by their exact environment). I have also heard other vaguely GA-ish varieties with people vocalizing coda /l/ as well to something like [ɰ] or [w].

Conversely, I agree that in anything GA-like a merger of /w/ and /v/ seems quite improbable any time soon.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:18 am 
Avisaru
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Well in my part of New Orleans most coda /l/s are vocalized,

For example /'ɒ:mənd/ <almond> /'kɛjbəw 'kɑr/ <cable car>

I wouldn't be surprised if our odd voiced contrast turned into an Iceland-style aspiration contrast, so we might see something like /'ɑ:mənt/ and /'kʰipo'kɑr/ in the future

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:25 am 
Sumerul
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i wouldn't use almond as an example, because pronouncing it with /l/ is a spelling pronunciation and the original pronunciation has no /l/.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:35 am 
Sumerul
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Mall then is a better example. For it I have [ˈmɒ(ː)o̯], showing my realization of /ɔːl/ (both in words that had it historically and words in which it has appeared as a spelling pronunciation).

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:15 pm 
Sumerul
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also like how far back does L-vocalisation go? because it seems to be found in america and britain... but whether it was separate innovations or a holdover from the 18th century I don't know..

(I actually have trouble pronouncing [ɫ] word finally without forcing it. It occasionally causes difficulty with my students because many of them are used to a Japanese style [rɯ] instead of ɫ, so if I start replacing it with [u] or whatever, they just get confused)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:19 pm 
Avisaru
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The l-vocalizing places in America were originally settled in part by folks from the West Country of Britain/England, which has the same feature. In fact Bristol was originally Bristow, but the presence of l-vocalism was so widespread that it was considered dialectical and hypercorrected. And it's first charter was granted under that name in 1155, meaning a dark l has been around in Englishes of some form or another for almost a millenium.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:25 pm 
Avisaru
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How do you say "wall", for instance? [wɒu]?

That just sounds weird to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:38 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:41 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:02 pm 
Lebom
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So far, we've been talking about phonology. What about grammar and lexicon (especially closed categories)?

English is merging adverbs into verbs, although I think that's well established by now. Probably one of the first noticeable (for average people) splits between Northern and Southern GA closed category lexicon will be the 2pl pronoun: "you guys" vs. "y'all". What are some other grammar/closed category lexicon things you can think of?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:56 am 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:58 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:51 pm 
Avisaru
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I thought you might have meant that, I agree that happens fairly often.

Like in
"He runs quick" or "He runs fast" vs. "He runs quickly"

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:57 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:11 pm 
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One of these days, I will become fluent in Old English.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:40 am 
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