Wenetic Scratchpad- NP: Gods above.

[hwhatting]

This is a total change, I am aware, from what I posted above about the function of the periphrasis. I ummed and ah-ed about which way round the perfective-imperfective marking would go, as to me at least a "do-periphrasis" in English seems more naturally perfective. However, a similar construction in Cornish at least seems to be imperfective in meaning, so fuck it. It seems more natural that the perfective is the unmarked category to me anyway.

Just tossing an idea in - another twist would be to do what Slavic did: the basic verbs have their "inherent" aspect and the other aspect is derived, imperfect -> perfect mostly by prefixation, and perfect -> imperfect mostly by suffixation. So you could have a "perfectizing" and an "imperfectizing" periphrasis.

[Herra Ratatoskr]

Just curious, is this set in the same universe as Dravian?

[Click]

To jump on the offtopic bandwagon, is Dravian spoken along the river Drava?

Anyway, this is a very good, if not excellent conlang. I like its morphological complexity how it nicely falls in between Germanic and Slavic while still having some features of its own such as aspirated stops.

[Dewrad]

This is a total change, I am aware, from what I posted above about the function of the periphrasis. I ummed and ah-ed about which way round the perfective-imperfective marking would go, as to me at least a "do-periphrasis" in English seems more naturally perfective. However, a similar construction in Cornish at least seems to be imperfective in meaning, so fuck it. It seems more natural that the perfective is the unmarked category to me anyway.

Just tossing an idea in - another twist would be to do what Slavic did: the basic verbs have their "inherent" aspect and the other aspect is derived, imperfect -> perfect mostly by prefixation, and perfect -> imperfect mostly by suffixation. So you could have a "perfectizing" and an "imperfectizing" periphrasis.

I really like this idea. I'm happy enough with how PW is, but I shall definitely be using this in a daughter language, I think. Thanks!

Just curious, is this set in the same universe as Dravian?

No. Dravian is technically set in the same universe as Mecislau's Novegradian, but given that we haven't done anything collaborative with it for years, I think saying they're part of the same universe is pretty much just lip service at this point. Dravian's pretty self-contained anyway. The Wenetic universe is going to be fairly different, I feel. If you've ever read John Ford's The Dragon Waiting, I'm thinking that it might be an althist vaguely along those lines at the moment. I've devised a script for one of the daughters which is based on uncial Greek, which I think at the moment was bought to "Wenetistan" by Neopythagorean missionaries.

To jump on the offtopic bandwagon, is Dravian spoken along the river Drava?

Anyway, this is a very good, if not excellent conlang. I like its morphological complexity how it nicely falls in between Germanic and Slavic while still having some features of its own such as aspirated stops.

Thank you, that's the idea And to answer your question: yes, between the Drava, Danube and Lake Balaton, with extraterritorial populations in northern Slovenia (particularly around Ptuj/Petava) and eastern Austria.

[Buran]

When you say it's going to be an alternate history, what specifically do you have in mind? What would Europe look like in 2013 CE with the Wenetic people thrown into the mix (and also presumably some other stuff that's happened, since The Dragon Waiting has vampires and stuff...)?

[Click]

Anyway, this is a very good, if not excellent conlang. I like its morphological complexity how it nicely falls in between Germanic and Slavic while still having some features of its own such as aspirated stops.

Thank you, that's the idea And to answer your question: yes, between the Drava, Danube and Lake Balaton, with extraterritorial populations in northern Slovenia (particularly around Ptuj/Petava) and eastern Austria.

Thanks! I'd expect a minority in northern Croatia and perhaps southwest Slovakia as well.

[Dewrad]

When you say it's going to be an alternate history, what specifically do you have in mind? What would Europe look like in 2013 CE with the Wenetic people thrown into the mix (and also presumably some other stuff that's happened, since The Dragon Waiting has vampires and stuff...)?

I honestly haven't thought that far ahead: the "modern" Wenetic languages I refer to upthread are probably of Mediaeval/Early Modern vintage.

I wouldn't take the Dragon Waiting comparison too seriously: I'm not intending on incorporating vampires and magic (actually, I'm now vaguely tempted by the latter, having never done a "magic" conworld before), rather a recognisably similar but different Europe. One idea I've been toying with is later Hellenistic philosophies/initiatory cults becoming international and missionary in a similar fashion to (say) Buddhism or Manichaeanism, with Christianity (and, ipso facto, Islam) being largely unimportant in this timeline.

Thanks! I'd expect a minority in northern Croatia and perhaps southwest Slovakia as well

As it happens, there is a presence in Croatia, mainly along the river itself and around Osijek/Mòrsa. Slovakia's too far away though :/

[Salmoneus]

Of course, a language can exist in two worlds. I've considered in the past having a language have some borrowings from Dravean, due to being a language meant to be spoken in a nearby area, which would mean the two languages being in the same althist - but I wouldn't feel obligated to make everything match Dew's althist, let alone Mak's. After all, French i'm sure exists in LOTS of alt-histories, why shouldn't Dravean?

[Buran]

When you say it's going to be an alternate history, what specifically do you have in mind? What would Europe look like in 2013 CE with the Wenetic people thrown into the mix (and also presumably some other stuff that's happened, since The Dragon Waiting has vampires and stuff...)?

I honestly haven't thought that far ahead: the "modern" Wenetic languages I refer to upthread are probably of Mediaeval/Early Modern vintage.

I wouldn't take the Dragon Waiting comparison too seriously: I'm not intending on incorporating vampires and magic (actually, I'm now vaguely tempted by the latter, having never done a "magic" conworld before), rather a recognisably similar but different Europe. One idea I've been toying with is later Hellenistic philosophies/initiatory cults becoming international and missionary in a similar fashion to (say) Buddhism or Manichaeanism, with Christianity (and, ipso facto, Islam) being largely unimportant in this timeline./

Looks like we're going to have a lot more pagan churches... hmm... now I really want to see a High Church of Perun, complete with holy lightning rods...

Are you planning on having at least one member of the Wenetic family survive to 2013 CE, or are they all going to die off?

[vec]

I just read the thread and got up to speed. Keep up the good work, Dewrad. This is excellent.

Also, couldn't you call -sk- verbs cappatic or is that dumb?

[Dewrad]

On the topic of Dravia and Dravian, I've opened another thread on the subject here.

[Salmoneus]

I just read the thread and got up to speed. Keep up the good work, Dewrad. This is excellent.

Also, couldn't you call -sk- verbs cappatic or is that dumb?

On a similar vein - I once wanted to have simple words for forms ending in -o and forms ending in -e. Think I ended up having to go with o-forms and e-forms - fine to call one 'etic', I guess, but the other was neither specifically omegic or omicronic... just o-ic, if that were a word. Damn greeks and their overly specific alphabet.

[Click]

On a similar vein - I once wanted to have simple words for forms ending in -o and forms ending in -e. Think I ended up having to go with o-forms and e-forms - fine to call one 'etic', I guess, but the other was neither specifically omegic or omicronic... just o-ic, if that were a word. Damn greeks and their overly specific alphabet.

Greeks have an epsilon, mind you.

[Drydic]

On a similar vein - I once wanted to have simple words for forms ending in -o and forms ending in -e. Think I ended up having to go with o-forms and e-forms - fine to call one 'etic', I guess, but the other was neither specifically omegic or omicronic... just o-ic, if that were a word. Damn greeks and their overly specific alphabet.

Greeks have an epsilon, mind you.

You're solving a problem that doesn't exist.

[WeepingElf]

I just read the thread and got up to speed. Keep up the good work, Dewrad. This is excellent.

Also, couldn't you call -sk- verbs cappatic or is that dumb?

On a similar vein - I once wanted to have simple words for forms ending in -o and forms ending in -e. Think I ended up having to go with o-forms and e-forms - fine to call one 'etic', I guess, but the other was neither specifically omegic or omicronic... just o-ic, if that were a word. Damn greeks and their overly specific alphabet.

Etic is alredy taken. In semiotics and cultural studies, etic refers to the viewpoint from outside the cultural system discussed, which registers differences that are meaningless to the subject culture itself, in opposition to an emic viewpoint which is from inside the system. The word pair etic/emic is a generalization of phonetic/phonemic and similar pairs. Many people, however, use them only to sound pretentious

A form in -e is of course only "etic" (perhaps better etaic) if the /e/ is long; if it is short, it is epsilontic. Likewise for omegic and omicronic.

[Dewrad]

Bump because I'm halfway through writing a post and won't be done until tomorrow at the earliest. Fuck needy teenagers expecting Latin lessons to be planned and interactive.

[Drydic]

A dramatic reading of Pompeian graffiti. Perhaps reenactments as well.

[Pthagnar]

twitter is Relevant

[Chagen]

I just wanted to say I love the hell out of this lang. It feels like I'm reading a grammar of a real language, it's detailed, not just a rip-off of existing IE-langs, yet feels like it's own thing. I see some Sanskrit in there as well as Slavic and Germanic (which is not that noticeable except in the apophony, actually).

Also I love your voice for this. It's informal and entertaining yet descriptive. Makes my own descriptions of my conlangs look dry and boring--in comparison, I had a lot of fun reading this. I'm trying to make my descriptions more like yours.

[Dewrad]

Chagen, vec, thanks

Looks like we're going to have a lot more pagan churches... hmm... now I really want to see a High Church of Perun, complete with holy lightning rods...

Actually, this would not be an inopportune moment to discuss Proto-Wenetic religion and mythology. Comparative IE mythology is something that I'm not unknowledgeable about, and creating a "new" IE pantheon shouldn't be too difficult (albeit feeling rather weird, like a devout Catholic inventing a new Christian denomination).

So, let's start with some basics. (Because it gets a bit silly, I'm going to dispense with the asterisks in this section.)

The speakers of Proto-Wenetic were, unsurprisingly, polytheists: they worshipped, revered and were aware of a range of supernatural beings (both "good" and "evil"), all of which were acknowledged as being autonomous and sentient in their own ways. The basic division of sentient life for the Wenetoi was fourfold: there are tʰêsāsi 'divine beings', ǯerą́teyi 'ancestors', čʰimáni 'humans' and įdêsāsi 'miscellaneous others'. These categories aren't exactly fixed, there's some permeability between them: a tribe's tutelary deity might well be a deified ancestor, and obviously a human will eventually in the natural course of things become an ancestor.

When they felt like it, the Wenetoi could subdivide the first category of tʰêsāsi 'divine beings' into ą̂sawi 'high gods' and čʰudâ 'minor gods'. In the latter category fell highly localised gods, genii loci, personified abstractions and the like. Obviously opinions could differ on this, and the two categories aren't hard and fast. Wenetoi living by the Oder might consider Wêdorā to be a highly significant ą̂su while a tribe whose territory was closer to the Vistula might consider her to be little more than a čʰudą́ worshipped with excessive fervour by those weirdoes on the other side of the forest.

The most important of the ą̂sawi were a group of five gods and probably about four goddesses (linguistic note: ą̂su was epicene, referring to both male and female deities). Let's begin with the gods: they fall neatly into two pairs and a singleton.

The "chief gods", if you will were Ištra and Aitana. Of the two, Aitana was the junior member of this partnership. Broadly speaking, both gods dealt with the law and rulership and the regulation of the community, but approached from two different angles. Ištra regulated divine law (*yéwisa), the laws which underpin ritual, which regulate the functioning of the universe itself. He was conceived of as the patron of magic and the uncanny, of secret initiations (and therefore by extension, warrior sodalities and kingship). He was also considered to be the god of the sea and of night. Borrowing motifs and symbols from the Wenetoi's neighbours' worship of Wodanaz (who in turn borrowed much from the Gaulish cult of Lugus), he is portrayed as a hoary wanderer of middle years with only one eye, who meddles in the affairs of mortals pretty much at will.

Aitana, on the other hand, was more friendly to humans, less distant and apt to meddle. His province was that of human law (*tʰêti). He oversaw contracts between people (hence alliances, marriage and friendship) and tribes: his most common epithet was Wénidana "of the Wenetoi". He was also patron of the daytime sky, and was believed to be all-seeing. Oaths were sworn in his name, out of doors. However, punishment of oathbreakers did not fall to Aitana, but rather to Ištra, who would throw fetters over the guilty and drag them to their doom under the sea. As Ištra had only one eye, so too was Aitana portrayed as being mutilated: he lacked a hand. The myth whereby he lost his hand is recorded in relatively complete form by all of the descendant Wenetic cultures:

• The gods were disputing about the most worthy sacrifice to offer. After much discussion they settled on a white bull, who was to be led to the place of sacrifice. The gods chose Aitana to bring the sacrifice, but the god said "I am the friend of all that moves, both two-footed and four-footed. I cannot lead this creature to his death." The gods replied that if he would not perform his role in the sacrifice, then he would not receive any of it. So Aitana relented and went to the white bull, to lead him to the place of sacrifice. But the bull would not come, fearing that he would be killed. A sacrifice must come willingly and joyfully. So Aitana told the bull that he was to be a guest at a feast, and as proof of his faith he laid his hand in the bull's mouth and led him by the tongue. When Aitana and the white bull came to the place of sacrifice, the bull realised that he had been tricked, and he closed him mouth around Aitana's hand and sunk his sharp teeth into the god's flesh. The bull would not let go until Perkǔna smashed the bull's front teeth out. But it was too late for Aitana's hand, which had been severed for his faithlessness.

The next god up was Perkǔna. His totem animal was the bull, and he was the god of thunder and the rains, of fertility and also of war and warriors. However, while patron of war, Perkǔna was not considered to be the god of the élite warrior sodalities: their patron was Ištra, and the kind of war they engaged in was mainly offensive war, stealing cattle and slaves, fighting for glory. Perkǔna was the god of the common man under arms, fighting to defend his fields and kin. Mainly, he was prayed to for fertility, and to keep away misfortune and evil. The agricultural year among the Wenetoi was considered to begin with the spring planting, which could only begin after the first thunderstorm of the year. The first strike of lightning against the earth was considered to be Perkǔna's first battle against the demons, making it safe to begin planting the fields. Perkǔna was not considered to be the brightest of the gods, but certainly one of the most good-natured (and somewhat sexually voracious: he crops up as the father of a number of the lesser gods). He was normally depicted as a great big bearded man, weilding a massive club and with an almost comically prominent phallus.

This is becoming long. I will split it.

[vec]

What of the godesses?

[Dewrad]

I'm not finished yet!

[hwhatting]

I get the etymologies of Aitana and Perkuna, but Ištra?
Ištra = strong?

[Dewrad]

The last post became long. I splat it.

Our final pair of major gods are the Diwá Súnawi, twin gods who were normally portrayed as young, beardless men riding white horses. Their reflexes in the descendent traditions differ irritatingly in the details: we're not even entirely sure on their individual names. One twin is securely reconstructable as Éčwana, roughly meaning 'divine horseman'. The other is more closely associated with cattle herding: the Littoral and Riparian branches preserve a reflex of Sogála 'good herdsman', while the name used by the Insular Wenetoi is a reflex of Paimíni, of equivalent meaning.

Two main myths or myth cycles are preserved in all three branches: that of their conception and that of their marriage, although in both cases again the traditions differ significantly in the details, with only broad outlines common to all three:

• One year, at the midwinter feast, a god disguised himself as a man and went travelling through the world under the sun[1]. And on the longest night of the year, he came upon a hall, bright with lights and loud with the sound of feasting. The porter at the door admitted the god to the hall, to partake of his lord's hospitality. And at the head of the table at the lord's right hand sat the most beautiful woman in the world, pouring out mead for her lord and his men[2]. Overcome with lust, the god vowed to seduce the woman before the sun rose. And so, when all the hall was sleeping, the god took on the lord of the hall's face and went to the lady's chamber and there he lay with her before taking his leave before dawn. But before the sun rose, the rightful lord of the hall called upon his lady and lay with her.
  
  Nine months passed, and twins were born to the lady: twins with two fathers, one divine and one mortal. On the ninth day, the twins were bought before their mortal father to receive their names. One twin reached out and grasped a sword: to him the name Éčwana was given. The other reached out and put his hand on an ox-halter: he was named Sogála.

1. The identity of the god differs in each descendant tradition. The Insular Wenetoi attributed paternity to Sœbil, the god of the sun (< PW *Sâwilya), the Littoral Wenetoi to Ještra (< PW *Ištrá). The Riparian Wenetoi named the otherwise unknown god Káirna (< PW *Káryana < PIE *kóryonos), but it is perhaps significant that Kárin, the Littoral cognate, is used as an epithet of Ještra.
2. The social status of the lord, his lady and his hall again differs in the descendant traditions. The Littoral and Riparian Wenetoi said that the Twins were born into a family of free farmers, while the Insular Wenetoi said that the lord and his lady were a king and queen: in fact, the later royal dynasty of Kêriats claimed descent from Etsven (< *Éčwana).

The second myth cycle relates the twin's marriage to Sulína, daughter of Sâwilya. The twins compete against each other for her hand, undergoing a series of challenges but drawing at each. In the climactic final two challenges, however, there is a clear winner: Éčwana wins a horse race against his brother, while Sogála offers a far richer bride-price for Sulína. Upshot of it is that both twins are awarded Sulína as their wife. Carelessly, the girl then goes and gets herself abducted by barbarians from over the northern sea. After various adventures, the twin husbands rescue her and the threesome live happily ever after in a vaguely incestuous polyamory.

Myths aside, why were this pair of young men so popular? What was their portfolio? Quite broad-ranging, as it happens. They were primarily prayed to as rescuers and saviours: particularly at sea and in battle. They were called on to resolve crises of all kinds, and were kind of seen as eleventh-hour divine cavalry. On top of this, they had strong associations with youth, virility and fertility, and were highly popular among women trying to conceive. They also had strong associations with the sun: in some songs they are depicted as a pair of yoked white horses, drawing the sun accross the sky. As an extension of this, they were seen as guarantors of divine order, ensuring that the sun rose every morning, and often described as the lovers of Aušá, the goddess of the dawn.

Before we move on to goddesses, let's have a quick round-up of the remaining male ą̂sawi, less important but still common to all Wenetoi:

We have already met Sâwilya, the god of the sun. Ironically, given his role as a divine philanderer, Sâwilya was considered to be the patron of wronged husbands: his all-seeing eye was supposed to be able to see all infidelity as it happened. Aside from this, his mythology was rather impoverished: the main story he features in is rather late: he is imprisoned in a tower in the northern sea by a hostile demon, and is subsequently jailbroken by a band of twelve mortal heroes.

Ménāti was the god of the moon, and by extension of time itself.

Tʰábrana was smith and general divine craftsman. He lived underground, aided by the ilpʰáwi, his supernatural assistants. Perhaps somewhat like twisted, unlovable Hephaistos of Greek myth, Tʰábrana was portrayed as uninterested in female company: in the descedndant traditions he was considered to be a special protector of eunuchs.

Raušá's portfolio was quite broad: god of plague, madness, poetry, healing and rats. Yes, rats. Normally pictured as a bearded nutter living in the woods, perched in a yew tree and hurling curses and blessings alternately and virtually at random.

Pâšą̄ was another god associated with the wild, but in this case of traversing it successfully, rather than living there and growing ever more crazy. Pâšą̄ was a god of herdsmen, traders, magicians and (in the descendant traditions) scholars, those who crossed from civilisation to barbarity on a regular basis on behalf of those remaining at home. He was also particularly interested in goats.

Yémana the dead god and the god of the dead. Yémana ruled over the afterlife, being the very first being to die and so discover the land of the dead. More on him when we discuss cosmology.

[Legion]

bump to save thread from pruning