[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 379: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
zompist bboard • View topic - Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous?

zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:29 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:54 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:13 pm
Posts: 168
Location: Ohio
Hi! I've been thinking of developing a naturalistic conlang derived from a historical proto-language, and I'd like some advice. I first wanted to use Proto-Italic (I thought about a Romlang, but that seemed overdone), but I could hardly find any sources on its vocabulary or grammar. (If anyone can help me with that, that'd be nice.) So I thought I'd use Proto-Indo-European.

I've been reading about Proto-Indo-European, and it just seems incredibly complex to me. Everything about it is quite hard to grasp. I found for Proto-Indo-European, but it appears to be based on older sources and doesn't seem to line up with laryngeal theory. However, to be perfectly honest with myself, its level of complexity seems a bit more "within my reach".

So, what I'd like to know is: Would it be better for me to create a higher-quality derivation from a reconstruction that, while possibly out-of-date, I am able to work with more easily - or work with a more rigorous and complex reconstruction, but one that I am more likely to make mistakes with? Does it matter either way as long as my derived conlang is derived in a consistent manner?

Additionally, does anyone have any suggestions for good proto-languages to work with - that is, ones that are well-documented and aren't too difficult for someone with a hobby-level knowledge of linguistics to understand? (Clearly, I would not attempt to work with Old Chinese.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:06 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Llundain

_________________
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!





Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:17 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Nothing matters.

All that's significant in choosing your starting material is what you want your result to be. If you're just randomly picking something to save you having to create a parent language de novo, sure, it doesn't matter how un-IE your source material is. If you want to make something that could pass for IE, or that impresses IEists, then clearly it does matter how IE your source material is.

[Do bear in mind, though, that all (I assume all?) of PIE's daughter languages have greatly simplified large parts of PIE's grammar.]

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:37 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:02 pm
Posts: 1040


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:15 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:13 pm
Posts: 168
Location: Ohio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:22 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Llundain

_________________
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!





Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:20 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 859
Location: The Eastern Establishment
Just note that you'd better have access to a university library if you want to do Uralic, because the material you'll need is all over the place. And a reading knowledge of Russian wouldn't hurt, either (I have the former, but not the latter). There's a thread in L&L on Uralic historical linguistics you should check out, though bear in mind it'll end up in L&L museum sometime within the next few days.

Actually, you'd better have access to a university library in any case, if you want to do a language derived from an existing one or a reconstructed protolanguage. I'm doing a language set in a not very obscure branch (Italo-Celtic) of IE, which is after all the best-documented and most-researched language family in the world, working with a six million-volume university library- and I have to special-order some pretty damn obscure books. If you don't have a university library, about the only family you can hope to make a reasonable member of is Romance, and even there you have to be careful about where in the family your project is located.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:49 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1630
Location: Braunschweig, Germany

_________________
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:05 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Does it matter if a possibility is 'taken'?

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:11 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1630
Location: Braunschweig, Germany

_________________
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:56 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:34 pm
Posts: 1606
Location: Stockholm
Wasn't there someone who already did Vampiric Sumerian? Or was that only a script?

_________________

My most recent quiz:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:11 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:33 am
Posts: 396
Location: Wizard Tower


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:43 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
Posts: 2144
Location: Britannia


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:45 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:13 pm
Posts: 168
Location: Ohio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:56 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:53 am
Posts: 620


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:59 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 11:10 am
Posts: 243


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:56 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea
If I'm not missing something, folks are conflating two different senses of "proto-language" here.

Proto-language, in our conlang parlance, means "an older stage of the 'final' language I want to create". In the historical linguistics sense, it means "reconstructed common ancestor of two or more attested languages". Therefore, e.g. Sanskrit or Classical Latin, ancient as they are, are not proto-languages in the latter sense. While according to the former sense, Old English would be a "proto-language of English", or Old Japanese would be a "proto-language of Japanese".

If you're interested in doing a diachronic a posteriori language, there is no particular reason to start from a reconstructed example. If anything, that is going to greatly limit the amount of information at your disposal. You can well pick an attested language as your protolang and proceed from there. If you don't care about putting the language in a plausible modern-day setting (a "lostlang"), you could even start from a modern, well-described language, zap any vocabulary like "computer" sort out of it, and pretend to evolve it as if it were spoken thousands of years ago. Like start from Modern Turkish and apply a bunch of sound changes inspired by the development from Proto-Oceanic to Māori?

(Incidentally, the Proto-Polynesian / Proto-Oceanic / Proto-Malayo-Polynesian / Proto-Austronesian series is quite well reconstructed as well, IIUC.)

Another possible point against using reconstructed bottom-level protolangs is that a believable development of several millennia is goign to require working out half a dozen intermediate stages, a shifting palette of loanword influences, etc. But if the scenario is something like suddendly dropping Old Tupi into 17th century Korea, it's entirely OK to enforce some drastic sound and grammar changes that, at a more "natural" environment, would have taken a millennium.

Sanskrit might be one of the best compromises between ancientness, well-describedness, and sources-being-in-English-ness, actually. Yet I don't think I've ever seen Indic bogolangs?

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:03 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
I don't understand where you think that conflation is happening, or why it should matter.

Yes, handwaving a "Tupi gets dropped in 17th century Korea" is, in some ways, easier than evolving a realistic non-extant branch of Indo-European. But some people would prefer to do the latter than the former. Personally, I have no interest in the former because a) it requires the sort of conworld that doesn't much interest me, and b) it gives me little context to appreciate the language in. With an IE language, I can compare and contrast to real IE languages - with a Romlang, to other real Romance languages. But not being an expert in either Tupi or Korean, the context would be lost on me there, and I might as well just make a language from scratch.

Besides, resources for Indo-European are way more easily accessible than resources on Tupi or on 17th century Korean.

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:04 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1630
Location: Braunschweig, Germany

_________________
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:36 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 455


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:26 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:16 pm
Posts: 259
Location: New Zealand
I've found that doesn't seem to be active anymore but focused on IE altlangs. Maybe you could find some more resources through them if you can track users down?

_________________
If you cannot change your mind, are you sure you have one?

Here's a .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:21 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:34 am
Posts: 402
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

_________________
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.


Last edited by sangi39 on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:44 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters

_________________
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:13 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:34 am
Posts: 402
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

_________________
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.


Last edited by sangi39 on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:42 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1258
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters

_________________
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group