Radical, man!WeepingElf wrote:For example, nobody really knows what the laryngeals really were; all we can say about them is that they probably were fricatives or approximants in the velar-to-glottal region. That still leaves a lot of possibilities.
Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous?
- ObsequiousNewt
- Avisaru
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
- Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
Re: Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous
퇎
Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.
Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.
- WeepingElf
- Smeric
- Posts: 1630
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
- Location: Braunschweig, Germany
- Contact:
Re: Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous
Radical, maybe; but they could just as well have been dorsal. My pet theory is that the three laryngeals were voiceless dorsal fricatives with POAs matching the three velar stop series: *h1=/x/, *h2=/χ/, *h3=/χʷ/, or something like that. Thus, PIE would have a nice set of voiceless fricatives missing only a labial member (but that one may simply have fallen together with *h3, or with *p); and I have recently been attracted by the idea that the traditional PIE "voiced aspirated" stops actually were voiced fricatives.ObsequiousNewt wrote:Radical, man!WeepingElf wrote:For example, nobody really knows what the laryngeals really were; all we can say about them is that they probably were fricatives or approximants in the velar-to-glottal region. That still leaves a lot of possibilities.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Re: Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous
That's how I usually think of the laryngeals, although I tend to think of *h1 as /h/ rather than /x/ with *h2 being the result of collapse between an older /x/ and /χ/, but I definitely think it's possible that *h3 could have been /χʷ/ and /ɸ/ in an earlier stage.WeepingElf wrote:Radical, maybe; but they could just as well have been dorsal. My pet theory is that the three laryngeals were voiceless dorsal fricatives with POAs matching the three velar stop series: *h1=/x/, *h2=/χ/, *h3=/χʷ/, or something like that. Thus, PIE would have a nice set of voiceless fricatives missing only a labial member (but that one may simply have fallen together with *h3, or with *p);
Intriguing. If this idea where correct, how would you then explain their shift to voiceless aspirated plosives in Greek?WeepingElf wrote:...and I have recently been attracted by the idea that the traditional PIE "voiced aspirated" stops actually were voiced fricatives.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
- WeepingElf
- Smeric
- Posts: 1630
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
- Location: Braunschweig, Germany
- Contact:
Re: Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous
I am not sure about that voiced fricatives thing at all. The Greek development would require breathy-voiced stops, as traditionally reconstructed, as an intermediate stage; this casts quite a shadow of doubt on the voiced fricatives hypothesis.sangi39 wrote:Intriguing. If this idea where correct, how would you then explain their shift to voiceless aspirated plosives in Greek?WeepingElf wrote:...and I have recently been attracted by the idea that the traditional PIE "voiced aspirated" stops actually were voiced fricatives.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
- KathTheDragon
- Smeric
- Posts: 2139
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
- Location: Brittania
Re: Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous
Could the voiced fricatives not simply become stops?
- WeepingElf
- Smeric
- Posts: 1630
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
- Location: Braunschweig, Germany
- Contact:
Re: Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous
The phonemes in question indeed merged with the voiced stops in many branches of IE: in Celtic, Baltic, Slavic, Iranian and Anatolian (and of course also in Tocharian, where all three manners of stop articulation collapsed into one). But not in Greek. The development from voiced fricatives to aspirated stops couldn't have gone via voiced stops, because then they would have merged with the PIE voiced stops, unless the latter changed to something else and later back to voiced stops. While it is not logically impossible that such a scenario is true, it is certainly not parsimonious and violates Ockham's Razor.KathAveara wrote:Could the voiced fricatives not simply become stops?
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
- WeepingElf
- Smeric
- Posts: 1630
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
- Location: Braunschweig, Germany
- Contact:
Re: Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous
For those who get bored of the PIE discussions here, I have good news: I have opened a new thread in L&L where the discussions of PIE can go instead of cluttering this thread.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A