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zompist bboard • View topic - Naturalistic conlang from a proto-language: How rigorous?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:38 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:49 am 
Sanno
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You raise an interesting point when you say 'the same order'. Sound changes can spread into neighbouring languages, even from different language families (it's common for many of the major soundchanges in X to also occur in neighbouring Y - what's not normal is for Y not to have a bunch of its own soundchanges as well!), but they don't necessarily spread in the same order! One way to have interesting sprachbund effects is to put a language through (some of) the same changes as its neighbour, but have them happen in a different order (to the extent that that makes sense)... that can result in something that looks similar in one way but is quite distinct in another.

More importantly: what? There's been a secret PIE-conlanging board hidden for the last four or more years!?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Now if you'll excuse me, I have to continue working on a secret project, the details of which I hope to reveal in the coming months.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:27 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:51 pm 
Sanci
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I'd really like to do something with Old Chinese (pref. the Baxter-Sagart). PIE is quite ridiculous - it makes Karlgren's OC reconstruction look sane.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:07 am 
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Wait what's a good resource for Old Chinese? I thought not much about it was known? Or maybe I'm confusing it with proto-Sino-Tibetan?

@Goatface: yes! Do it :wink: PIE makes a lot more sense if you look at after learning a bit of Latin, the morphology (at least the nominal morphology)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:03 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:23 am 
Avisaru
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Just in case (there are many people who have made this mistake, me included) you are confusing things: bogolanging is not the same as a posteriori conlanging; a bogolang is when you take the exact sound changes of one language and apply it to another.

If you were perfectly conscious of this distinction please ignore this post.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:10 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:21 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Here is what I have on the subject of . Also, the Wikipedia article seems to be much nicer than I recall from the past, so that's worth looking into also.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:15 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:50 pm 
Avisaru
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I should really conduct an inventory of my PDF collection. I found these two additional documents. NB - they are much larger than most of the others, 25Mb and 50Mb




I should probably collate these and throw them into a torrent or something.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:42 pm 
Avisaru
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I remember downloading some of your PIE textbooks a while ago! Thank you very much for putting those up, they're excellent!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Jumping in rather late here (apologies if this verges into thread necromancy) -- I just wanted to say I appreciated reading the earlier post here suggesting the 'success' or 'reward' of working up a conlang from a reconstructed (nat-)protolanguage lies in the ability to compare and contrast it to its actually documented relatives, both linguistically and 'historically' (in a broad sense). I definitely feel the same way!

Unfortunately -- despite an undergraduate degree in Sanskrit :oops: -- I really have no taste for the IE family, nor background in European history/language history, which puts a good 80% or more of a posteriori conlanging discussions (let alone group projects) out of my league.

FWIW, in my own tinkering I think of there being two related but different approaches. One is to work from a (reconstructed/hypothetical) protolanguage of an actual group of natlangs, to create a new sibling -- in which case I'm relatively less concerned with being "rigorous". (Though only relatively). At least for the dismal, petty language families I favor, it doesn't take long to learn how tentative and flimsy the reconstructed protolanguages are*, and how perverse it is to limit yourself to 'proper comparative-historical linguistic rigor' in inventing a new descendant.

The other is to take an older, historically documented language and work up a more or less direct descendant of it. (E.g., a descendant of Old Georgian found in some village in Mazandaran, or a 10th century manuscript in a descendant of Gaulish). I feel like that calls for a lot more rigor, in having a good grasp of the source language on one hand and the later linguistic and social environment it survived through.

[* Assuming much reconstruction has even been done!]

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:16 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Agreed. It's just that, over nearly 20 years of online or in-person conlanging contacts, I've often seen people struggling to apply the standards of Latin philology to Proto-Nostratic (so to speak), in order to develop a "rigorous" a posteriori conlang. I've veered that direction myself on many occasions!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:07 am 
Smeric
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Well you'd better decide whether you want to or not, since you've done it now.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:28 am 
Avisaru
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You know, have you ever tried not stating everything you say in labyrinthine statements that require astounding leaps in logic and parsing to uncover the true meaning of in a vain effort to appear more intelligent than you actually are?

There is a difference between being erudite and being obtuse JUST to feign intelligence.

Inb4 you call me stupid despite intentionally crafting that statement to be a non sequitur that has nothing to do with the conversation on hand

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:57 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:53 pm 
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