The price of using magic in a conworld

[Sansato]

If a fantasy world is inclined to use magic and treat it as a sort of tool (much like Harry Potter or most video games I can think of), then it would probably make more sense to put some sort of limitations on what can be done with magic and how magic ultimately affects the user and the world around them. One of the ideas outlined in the PCK is the notion that the use of magic comes at a price, implying that excessive and repeated use of magic could have potentially devastating consequences for either the individual user alone, for society as a whole, or even for the entire conworld itself. As a noob, I can't and don't claim to know anything about anything, but something about this notion strikes me as both sinister and intriguing. Part of me wants to integrate a magic system that comes at a rather hefty toll to the user into a fantasy world, primarily out of curiosity. In fact, I've actually got a sketch of a related idea that I'm willing to share.

In my magic system, there would only be a handful of mages in the general populace of any given nation. Magic would have certain vulnerabilities and the effects of certain spells would be more localized and temporary than others. Mages would generally be identified as exceptional individuals, but here's the catch: The casting of spells will slowly chip away at the mage's mental health, ultimately rendering them insane if they continue to use magic. There are warning signs that a mage could go over the edge of insanity, such as bizarre dreams, hallucinations and behavioral changes. There are also methods to prolong the onset of insanity and the aforementioned warning signs, but aside from meditation and/or prayer, I haven't really thought those out just yet.

I know that my ideas are far from perfect. Like I said before, I don't know anything about anything. Of course, it's just a rough idea at this point and I may not even take it further if I can't find a good enough reason to. That being said, feel free to tell me what's wrong with this idea and whatnot.

Of course, I don't want this thread to be all about me. If any of you guys have put a "price" on the use of magic in your conworld, I'd love to hear about it.

[KathTheDragon]

One of my conworlds has a form of magic which is powered by the users own energy. Using magic accelerates their metabolism way beyond its natural limits to produce enough chemical energy to accomplish whatever the task is, be it making light, or throwing a rock. Prolonged over-use of magic will cause a person to waste away to nothing, and the more elaborate and energy-consuming magic they do, the faster this happens. There is naturally a balance point, and the effects of magic use can be reduced (but not avoided) by excessive eating (which is forbidden by the culture). Magic is also limited by the energy required: making fire is very easy as it only requires a short burst of energy to create, and energy can be replenished from the flame itself, but lifting boulders is almost impossible for one man to do, since it would take more energy than could be stored in any single body.

[Astraios]

Read The Bartimaeus Trilogy, that's relevant (and fun) about magic with a price.

[Bristel]

I think the plot of the anime Maburaho was that mostly everyone has magic power, but they can only use it a set amount of times that is (supposedly) determined by genetics. Some of the strongest witches/wizards can use their powers only a few times before their power is gone forever. (I haven't seen this in a long time, so correct me if I'm wrong)

[Chagen]

Technically, in (my conworld) The Divine Plane, there is no price on magic Miracles (as long as you got the power you do basically anything, and I do mean anything), but abusing your power too much (which in the Divine Plane usually means "attempting to raise an entire army of dead spirits" or "smelting the souls of gods into giant mecha" or "Unlimited Blade Works-ing people to death with skyscrapers for shits and giggles") means getting the Celestial bureaucracy that is the Ordofices on your ass. Nothing preventing you from just kicking their ass, though, but dealing with them and their endless attempts to arrest you can get aggravating. Unless you are an Ordofex...

But I'm not sure if externally-imposed "penalties" are in line with what you were talking about. More in line with that, one group of demigods in the Divine Plane, called Deathblessed or more frequently Akuma, due to being basically servants of Zombie Gods (not gods of zombies, gods who ARE zombies), make their bodies waste away with using Miracles (or in their case, Blasphemies)--they must endlessly replace their bodies as they literally fall to rotten bloody pieces, as they technically should not be able to do anything divine at all due to being DEAD (though this being the Divine Plane they found a way anyway).

However, because they're dead, they cannot replace their bodies correctly...let me just say that Akuma can and FREQUENTLY dip into the "Body Horror" territory. What makes it even worse is that they're revived by said Zombie Gods against their will.

On the other hand, Akuma can regenerate their bodies as well (though this cannot stop the natural rotting of their bodies from their blasphemous nature), though this requires them to consume human flesh. Also they use weapons made from rotten flesh and mecha that...you don't know want to know what the mecha look like.

[Rhetorica]

My current project (Thet) has a fundamentally scientific-ish explanation for how magic works—extremely high-tech machines that just outside of real space, continually scanning for input commands and affecting the world appropriately. Magical power is dictated by the competence of the spellcaster, who is essentially a programmer, and so powerful spells have to be regulated. One key difference this causes is that there's no divination whatsoever—spells cannot tell what someone's name is or the boundary between two objects unless you implement specific routines to do so, so the utility of things like magic rings of wishing would be dependent on the sophistication of an AI built into the ring itself.

The ultimate limitation on power of magic is thus up to the reactors on the nodes themselves; if the spell is too stressful or their energy storage is still recharging, then it may be aborted or ignored.

One of the quirkier side-effects of this is that the nodes can be infected with self-replicating viruses.

More detail here.

[Matrix]

The boring half of the limitations of magic on Maikros is that how much mana someone can channel is a function of endurance. The more interesting half requires some exposition. When a spell is cast, the mana is channeled from the earth, and upon completion of the spell, the expended mana remains in the air and slowly settles back down into the earth, where it is able to recharge without interference from whatever particles whizzing around out in the open air. The more powerful the spell, the more mana expended, the longer it takes the mana to settle and recharge. This is called the Mana Cycle. So, in theory, if a powerful enough spell was cast, an entire region of the world could be rendered without mana for a significant period of time. The mana spirits, which are incoproreal sapient beings composed of mana, do not like such abuse of the Mana Cycle, and are known to accost mages who they think are pushing it. Mana spirits also can communicate telepathically with mages of the appropriate element - fire spirits with pyromancers, water spirits with hydromancers, etc. - which Maikrosian spirits only use to warn mages. However, there are two elements not native to Maikros: Light and Darkness. These are native to the Underworld. Light spirits are the spirits of people - dead people, when found in the Underworld without a corporeal body. Darkness spirits are malevolent buggers - the lay terminology for them usually means 'demon' or such. They use their ability to telepathically communicate to necromancers to drive them insane. This can be worked around, however. The Order Necrotica on Salenzis and the necromantic division of the Black Cloaks on Toletska provide willpower training before training in necromancy, so that their necromancers can ignore the whispers of the darkness spirits. It works quite well, but it is, of course, not perfect. Both organizations execute rogue necromancers.

[Torco]

sanity as cost for doing spells can be seen nicely implemented in Lovecraftian horror: magic being something so alien that it warps the mind of the magic user in ways that make them less and less suited to function in the "real" world. I think its a very elegant implementation

[Hydroeccentricity]

I don't like the idea of magic having a "cost," when it pops up in fantasy literature. It implies (like the example of Harry Potter, above) that magic is an extra thing laid over top of an already plausible world. If all the gears fit together naturally without magic, then adding magic requires a "cost." But in historical magic systems the world could not exist as we know it without magic. If healing, smithing, growing, and reciting poetry are all magical acts, then you don't need a "cost," beyond the knowledge, wisdom, and physical exertion needed to perform them. The worst example I ever read was in a Harry Turtledove series about a parallel Byzantine empire. Magic was blocked by strong emotions, so it was almost useless in war and love, the two areas where spells would be most useful. In other words, H T couldn't think of any way to integrate magic into the plot, and really deep down just wanted it to stay out of the way and provide a bit of garnish for the fantasy reader crowd.

Maybe I'm the only one who cares about that sort of thing, but I thought I would throw in my two cents.

[Yaali Annar]

I come up with the concept of pass-action.

So you know how computer system has a root/superuser/admin that can do anything above the capability of normal user/application. This superusers account are protected with a password.

So... in this world the same concept is applied to real world. You have to perform a "pass-action" so that you can get the authority to perform things that normally can't be done by normal people. Every person has their own pass action, some people have easy pass-action (such as clapping twice) and some other have extremely difficult pass action (such as touching your nose with your heel).

But then, once you get the authority, performing magic isn't as simple as wishing things to happen. Just like there are commands to type in the terminal so does in real world. A "world-code" is written or incantated to create the desired behaviour.

There's no "price" by itself. But finding out your pass action and learning how to perform a world-code is not an easy taxk.

[Hallow XIII]

I don't like the idea of magic having a "cost," when it pops up in fantasy literature. It implies (like the example of Harry Potter, above) that magic is an extra thing laid over top of an already plausible world. If all the gears fit together naturally without magic, then adding magic requires a "cost." But in historical magic systems the world could not exist as we know it without magic. If healing, smithing, growing, and reciting poetry are all magical acts, then you don't need a "cost," beyond the knowledge, wisdom, and physical exertion needed to perform them. The worst example I ever read was in a Harry Turtledove series about a parallel Byzantine empire. Magic was blocked by strong emotions, so it was almost useless in war and love, the two areas where spells would be most useful. In other words, H T couldn't think of any way to integrate magic into the plot, and really deep down just wanted it to stay out of the way and provide a bit of garnish for the fantasy reader crowd.

Maybe I'm the only one who cares about that sort of thing, but I thought I would throw in my two cents.

No, this is all very true. The big trouble is, ingraining magic at such a fundamental level is hard, as you are probably going to have to mess with all the laws of physics. And then there is the fact that fantasy tends to come with certain expectations viz how the world works; fundamentally, fantasy is invariably a distorted reflection of the real world. That almost forces adding things on top rather than building something from the ground up. Now of course, this can be done without failing to produce the desired effect, but as said, it is very very difficult.

[Hydroeccentricity]

you are probably going to have to mess with all the laws of physics

That's the thing, though. You wouldn't. Our world has... well, real physics, and yet people by the billions believe in some form of magic. Magic is a belief system, a way of looking at the world. If you can explain it and manipulate it, then it's science. Everything else is magic. "Real" magic is a bit of a contradiction in terms, because magic is specifically those things which are unknown, or unknowable, and beyond the power of natural philosophers to explain. Putting magic in a conworld, in my humble opinion, is about the way the people see what's happening around them, not whether spells are real.

So, for example, let's say you have a healer.

"Melishanda threw a handful of dirt into the fire. 'Dagro!' she shouted. Suddenly a flash of green light, the physical incarnation of Gi, swirled around the young soldier's hand. Melishandra was not surprised. She had studied at the Citadel for years to do this. Gi flowed from the earth through channels of metalic ore, and could be manipulated by the right incantations. Soon the young man's hand was mended, but he couldn't stop staring at it in disbelief."

This reduces "magic" to a pseudo-science, and its practitioners to technicians. Give CERN a few years and a hundred billion dollars and they'll tell you everything you ever wanted to know about Gi. Let's try this again, shall we?

"Melishanda gave a prayer to the gods and unwrapped the dressing around the young soldier's hand. Would they listen to her pleading this time? Would they bring the green rot like they saw fit to do so many times to the young men injured in this war? She had done everything she had been taught to do. She had wrapped the wound in clean, pure cloth. She had put a decoction of holy purple weed over the area. She had begged the gods profusely. Now it was in their hands. To the relief of both Melishanda and the soldier, when she unwrapped his hand it was as strong and healthy as it had been before the battle. There was barely even a scar to show where the blade had gone in. How could anyone look at this, or the unfurling of leaves in the spring, or the growth of corn from tiny seeds, and doubt the gods' presence?"

Not exactly Shakespeare, but bear with me. Nothing about that was incompatible with physics as we know it. A medical professional would probably tell Melishanda that she's an idiot, and it's your job as the author to make sure a modern reader doesn't make the same judgment. It's certainly not easy, but if you're not going down this route, what's the point? If the only thing you want magic for is to have fireballs and dragons, just write science fiction.

[Hallow XIII]

Caveat: I never look at fantasy from the point of novel-writing, largely because I suck at that. My own deliberations on the matter tend to venture into the realms of tabletop settings (also heavy simulationism), so the same principles do not at all apply.

[Hydroeccentricity]

[In] the realms of tabletop settings... the same principles do not at all apply.

Is that really true, though? I think for the most part what I said (though admittedly not the examples I gave) holds true in any fictive setting. In tabletop gaming, you might have a character who can use magic to defend the group from danger. But if they read a book and practice spells, and then reliably employ the forces of ice and lightening to strike down a horde of goblins... well isn't that just science? You know how it works, even if you don't know all the details of why. It's knowable; it's reliable; it's within the abilities of professionals to manipulate and explain these forces. I don't think that's very magical at all, no offense intended.

What would it look like if a tabletop setting used magic as a way of seeing, rather than a way of knowing? Well, for one thing there needs to be magic in the world around the characters, not just in the abilities they bring to it. Maybe a wolf goes up to one of the characters and tells them a secret. Why did the wolf choose Sigfried the Superfluous Bard to talk to? Can we make it happen again if we try talking to another wolf? One of your number learned something about talking wolves from an NPC in the last campaign. Will that knowledge help here, or just get them killed? Now we're in the realm of the unknown and awe-inspiring. Now we're talking magic! The characters need to know enough to make a little sense of what's going on, but never enough to feel they really understand or control what's happening in the supernatural realm. And you can accomplish this even without breaking the laws of physics, since any number of things can possibly happen that the characters have no knowledge of (for example, eerie coincidences that might not be coincidences, or a friendly NPC whos name is an anagram of "Secret Bad Guy"). That's the point. Being a level eighteen pyrotechnics engineer in a funny robe and hat is all very well and good. But there's nothing magical about it.

[Hallow XIII]

It isn't magical for a reason - that reason not necessarily being ~game effects~ but that unknowable magic introduces intolerable randomness to the world. To the simulationist, an element that does not behave predictably - or whose driving forces cannot at least be discerned in hindsight, because for construction purposes these are equivalent - is a nightmare. It amounts to simply making random shit up, and that in turn amounts to tearing apart the entire intricate system of interlocking gears that is the conworld. The narrativism-inclined, of course, are interested in precisely that property because drama can much more effectively be induced from a completely random entity.

And of course in gaming, there is the third option: the level eighteen pyrotechnician in a pointy hat who cares about the potential of magics as a weapon. But these people are mostly peripheral to the issue of how magic works, because they care about the challenge of the game. As such, they will be very fine with random magic AS LONG AS that randomness is defined and constitutes an element of a fair challenge.

NE: perhaps this post would be more true to what I was trying to communicate if you replaced all instances of "random" with "inexplicable", because of course in the real world, random systems exist!

[Anguipes]

The Price of Magic is Magic, & the Price of not using Magic is even more Magic. Creation is only kept to the Divine Order by sending Mana back outside Reality to whence It came. Mana constantly creeps into the lower Spheres from the Nadir, the sinful Nature of the Lower Creation, & from Demons and Sorcerers who would actively invite It from Beyond. It is only dissipated from Creation at the Cost of Change to the gross Order. In the correct Hands such Acts bring the Lower Creation into alignment with the Higher, yet all too Many fall prey to Sin & Temptation & use such Power with great Wantonness, driving the World ever further from the Glory of God. Alas that this is the lesser Evil! For without such Acts all Creation would be overrun by Mana, the Substance of the Beyond Herself, the Sea of Blood. Magic of the good & proper Kind thus becomes a Duty of all Beings.

(Vana Gloria, guys)

[Chagen]

Not exactly Shakespeare, but bear with me. Nothing about that was incompatible with physics as we know it. A medical professional would probably tell Melishanda that she's an idiot, and it's your job as the author to make sure a modern reader doesn't make the same judgment. It's certainly not easy, but if you're not going down this route, what's the point? If the only thing you want magic for is to have fireballs and dragons, just write science fiction.

Ugh, what?

"Magic as a science that can be studied in-universe and explained like any real-life discipline of science" is a MUCH better and more interesting trope in my eyes than what you're suggesting.

Is that really true, though? I think for the most part what I said (though admittedly not the examples I gave) holds true in any fictive setting. In tabletop gaming, you might have a character who can use magic to defend the group from danger. But if they read a book and practice spells, and then reliably employ the forces of ice and lightening to strike down a horde of goblins... well isn't that just science? You know how it works, even if you don't know all the details of why. It's knowable; it's reliable; it's within the abilities of professionals to manipulate and explain these forces. I don't think that's very magical at all, no offense intended.

And....? Who cares if magic is like science? Who said it has to be mysterious and un-quantifiable? Magic is just "supernatural stuff that doesn't happen in reality". You're affixing all these strange implications to it. I like my magic to be rigorously studied and experimented on. Making it like another branch of science allows for much more interesting story ideas, and it just makes sense.

Also, who says I'm not writing Science Fantasy? I like my cyborg dragons, fighter jets powered by fire elementals, and guns that are actually shrines to the god of firearms and fire congealed prayer, you know.

[WeepingElf]

For my conworld Rosæ Crux, I see magic as the direct manipulation of morphic fields through the mind. The difference between art and magic is actually a gradual one, since artisans also make new morphic fields come into being, but by mundane means, usually involving tools, which a wizard doesn't need. There are several limitations:

1. Magic can only achieve what is unlikely, not what is impossible otherwise. For example, there are no teleportation or shapeshifting spells. What is possible is to enchant an object to increase the chance of success when using it, or to have a rock break in a particular way when you smash it. It is also possible to influence the behaviour of another creature; the more complex the target, the more difficult.

2. Magic is not a power source; there are no fireball spells, and you can't power a machine with magic.

3. Magic requires profound knowledge of the object you are trying to affect. For instance, for a healing spell you must have good medical knowledge, or if you want to make a car engine stall by a magic spell, you must know well how car engines work, and what sort of things are likely to make them fail. This has the effect that if you know something well enough to work effective magic on it, you know it well enough to often be able to achieve what you are trying to do by mundane means as well.

3. Each magic spell is an individual creation; there are no spells that can be learned from books and memorized, ready to cast them whenever you need them. This also implies that magic cannot be "industrialized", and magic items cannot be mass-produced.

4. Magic is always unreliable. No matter how good you are, there is a good chance that your spell fails; and failing spells can go really awfully wrong.

5. Working magic is mentally exhausting, and working too much magic may drive you mad.

Together, all these limitations have the effect that magic not only did not slow down the development of technology (rather, people sought to find ways of doing things without having to take recourse to this difficult and fickle art, and therefore invented machines), it was also gradually eclipsed by technology. Today, magic is of little economic importance, mostly practiced as a sport like horse riding and archery, and magic items are usually found in museums.

[Chagen]

I might ask what is the point of having magic, then, WeepingElf. If it's so useless to modern day society then why even have it in the story?

Also:

Together, all these limitations have the effect that magic not only did not slow down the development of technology (rather, people sought to find ways of doing things without having to take recourse to this difficult and fickle art, and therefore invented machines),

I feel that humans would STILL try to beat magic into a workable shape even if it is dangerous, as long as it provided good enough benefits (hell, that's a good idea for a conworld backstory or just a plain story right there). Electricity can kill you, works in mysterious ways (to the non-trained eye), and requires intense knowledge to use correctly, but we still harnessed it for modern day society.

[WeepingElf]

I might ask what is the point of having magic, then, WeepingElf. If it's so useless to modern day society then why even have it in the story?

It is not really useless; it only has its limits. There are still things that are best done with magic and hard to achieve otherwise, even if there are neither dragons nor fireball rifles. It was of greater significance in the past, though. At least, it adds a "sense of wonder" to the world!

Also:

Together, all these limitations have the effect that magic not only did not slow down the development of technology (rather, people sought to find ways of doing things without having to take recourse to this difficult and fickle art, and therefore invented machines),

I feel that humans would STILL try to beat magic into a workable shape even if it is dangerous, as long as it provided good enough benefits (hell, that's a good idea for a conworld backstory or just a plain story right there). Electricity can kill you, works in mysterious ways (to the non-trained eye), and requires intense knowledge to use correctly, but we still harnessed it for modern day society.

Yes, they still try. Magic is still taught and researched at universities, and people try to make it work more effectively. Yet, it has so far resisted all attempt to subject it to a régime of mass production (otherwise, it would just be another kind of technology and lose the air of mystery).

[Chagen]

Yes, they still try. Magic is still taught and researched at universities, and people try to make it work more effectively. Yet, it has so far resisted all attempt to subject it to a régime of mass production (otherwise, it would just be another kind of technology and lose the air of mystery).

But why does it have to be mysterious?!

You guys keep saying "magic must remain mysterious", but you haven't said WHY. Why are you guys assuming that "magic = mysterious"? Your argument is pointless to me--I do not see magic as having to be mysterious, so your argument doesn't even make sense.

[Rhetorica]

The traditional reason is so that writers can handwave and squeeze a good deus ex machina out of it as needed.

[Yng]

But why does it have to be mysterious?!

You guys keep saying "magic must remain mysterious", but you haven't said WHY. Why are you guys assuming that "magic = mysterious"? Your argument is pointless to me--I do not see magic as having to be mysterious, so your argument doesn't even make sense.

It doesn't have to be - magic as some people have described it here is very much real-world magic, i.e. [how anthropologists describe] an emic vision of the way the world works. For some people this is more interesting and more appealing, but obviously not for everyone. The reason this discussion emerged in the first place, though, was because we were talking about how magic will almost inevitably be stuck on top of an idealised/simplified image of how the world works as it is. Examples of this are rife in fantasy settings, where magic works exactly as you say - as an additional science that is stuck on top of the other sciences with no thought whatsoever as to the consequences or implications. One quick and easy way of fixing this obvious flaw is to go 'AH!!! but magic has a HORRIBLE COST!!! which means that not many people use it so it is ultimately not that relevant'. Another nicer way of incorporating the feel of mystery that magic done nicely can give (as opposed to your vision of magic, which is a big pulsing erection of power which weedy, nerdily-inclined young men with low charisma skills wield to teach macho guys that actually BEING CLEVER IS COOL, which I understand the appeal of) is to go the emic/low magic route suggested above.

[KathTheDragon]

My magic system is a consequence of a certain piece of highly advanced technology which essentially gives people exposed to it the ability to manipulate energy. This requires a power source, which is found in the user's own body. However, energy can be sourced from outside sources, such as the hypervolcano which powers the technology itself. Nothing particularly mysterious, even to the beings who use it, since the explanation of what they can and can't do with it has been passed down to them through their mythology.

[Chagen]

Examples of this are rife in fantasy settings, where magic works exactly as you say - as an additional science that is stuck on top of the other sciences with no thought whatsoever as to the consequences or implications.

The easiest solution to this is just to say "Magic works completely seperate of normal physics, end of story", which is basically what Exalted (a tabletop RPG I love) does--Essence works completely seperate from normal physics, though it DOES allow you to fuck with it quite heavily.

In my own conworld of the Divine Plane, most magic miracles are basically "action-replay-ing reality"--quite literally, as they basically "hack" into the laws of physics and change them around for a limited amount of time. Thus, miracles let one do that which is normally impossible, such as affecting incorporeal objects with your physical body (by basically going into the part of reality's "physics engine" that says "COLLISION_WITH_INCORPOREAL: NO" and brute-force hacking it into "YES")