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 Post subject: Proto-Karasuk Scratchpad
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:54 pm 
Avisaru
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What?
A lot of IE conlangs I have tended to be from sub families found in europe, so I decided to make a conlang related to the Indo-Iranian languages. Because there isn't a proto-indo-iranian dictionary out there, I have to estimate what the word would be like when I can't find the word. Though an etymological dictionary of Persian will be released next year, so hopefully that will allow me to make some changes. PK will have one or two things on the PII stage that will make it different from what actually happened and I will chalk this up to it being a specific thing of the dialect of PII that PK developed from. PK will be most closely to the Iranian languages sharing some key changes (h > s, treatment of thorn clusters, retaining diphthongs, loss of aspirates). I will also look at some initial grammatical changes as well. However, PK will have a stronger Uralic (specifically Samoyedic) influence on vocab, and somewhat with morphology and phonology. I havent decided how much influence there will be with the morphology at this point. I'm not sure where to put this but I'm thinking about the potential autonym being *gārā́rya (*gār- "mountain" + *ā́rya "Arya") as oppose to the iranians who are the *pərtā́rya (*pərta- "flat" + *ā́rya " Arya).

When and Where?
The dating for Proto-Karasuk is after the break up of the Andronovo culture and the rise of the karasuk culture. The ancestors of the PK speakers migrated east to the area north of the Altai mountains. Since the exact nature of the language of the people of the Karasuk culture (some saying indo-european, others turkic or mongolian), but since later cultures near by (Tagar and Pazyryk cultures) seem to have either strong scythian influence and/or genetic connections to other indo-european groups. For future development I'm going to have to fudge a couple of things. Proto-Karasuk would be spoken from about 1500BCE to 700BCE.

Sound Changes
Symbols used:
K = any voiceless velar (including palatals)
G = any voiced velar (including palatals)
R = any resonant
V = any vowel
C = any non resonant consonant
P = any plosive
F = any fricative
N = any nasal
$ = syllable boundary
# = word boundary
(these are my initial sound changes and I will update them when they change)

Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Indo-Iranian(ish)

1. Satem Shift
- ḱ ǵ ǵh > ĉ ĵ ĵh
- kw gw gwh > k g gh

2. l/r merger
- r, l > r
- ṛ, ḷ > ṛ

3. syllabic nasals loss
- ṃ,ṇ > a

4. Bartholomae's law
- example: *Hewgh-to- > Haugdha-

5. RU(P)KI rule
ruki rule included labial stops

6. palatals lenition before dentals and /s/
- ĉt > śt
- ĵd(h) > źd(h)
- ĉs > šš

7. 1st thorn cluster change
tk > kš
tĉ > ĉš
d(h)g(h) > g(h
d(h)ĵ(h) > ĵ(h

8. second palatization of velars
- k g gh > č ǯ ǯh / _i/ī, e/ē, y

9. brugmann's law
- o > ō in open syllables

10. e/o merger and laryngeal merger
- e, o > a
- ē, ō > ā
- h1 h2 h3 > H

11. voiceless plosives + laryngeals > voiceless aspirates

Proto-Indo-Iranian to Proto-Karasuk

11. high vowel desyllabification before laryngeals when stressed
- íH > yə́ / _$
- ī́H > yə̄́ / _$
- úH > wə́ / _$
- ū́H > wə̄́ / _$

12. loss of voiced aspirates
- voiceless aspirates maintained though early dialect distinction occurs. Southern varieties follow the iranian change of /ph th kh/ > /f θ x/.

13. loss of the Laryngeal and loss of syllabic r
- VH > V̄ / _$
- VRH > V̄R
- Ḥ/Ḥ̄ > ə/ə̄
- ṛ/ṝ > ər/ə̄r
- H > null elsewhere (leaving vowels in hiatus when between vowels)

14. 2nd thorn cluster changes
- ĉš > š (word/syllable initial and final), šš (elsewhere
- ĵž > ž (word/syllable initial and final), žž (elsewhere)


15. debuccalization of s
- s > h
Unlike the Iranian languages, this change was much more complete with s becoming h in all positions.

16. loss of first palatals
- ĉ ĵ ĵh > s z z
- ś ź > s z

17. Cluster simplification
- F1F2 > F2 / $_, _$
- F1F2 > F2F2 / V_V
- P1F1P2 > F1P2
- F1P1P2 > P1P2
- P1P2P3 > P2P3
- N1N2 > N2N2

18. Initial cluster loss
With the exception of PR, FR, FP, and NR clusters, where R is not a nasal, an unstressed ə is inserted between the two consonants.
/h/+P[-voice] > Ph

19. regressive voicing
- C[-voice]C[+voice] > C[+voice]C[+voice] (this includes nasals)
- C[+voice]C[-voice] > C[-voice]C[-voice]

20. Plosive Lenition
- P1P2 > F1P2

21. wə/yə monophthongization
- wə, wə̄ > o, ō
- yə,yə̄ > e, ē

22. loss of word initial r

23. Misc incomplete changes
- unstressed Cya > Ce in affixes


*I'm not sure if the first part of these changes took place in PII, but it doesnt really affect the outcome I think.

I am also not sure on the exact chronology of the changes from PIE to PII.

The above changes have resulted in the following inventory:

Code:
m  n    ŋ*
p  t    k
pʰ tʰ   kʰ
b  d    g
    č
    ǯ
  s š     h
  z ž
  l*
w r y

i i:     u u:
e e: ə ə: o o:
     a a:

*introduced through samoyedic loans.

Some preliminary ideas for changes that take place to samoyedic loan words.
ü > yu
ö > yo
æ > ya
ɯ > i
ɤ > ə
ə > ə
ə̈ > ə

I don't have any examples to demonstrate this just yet, so as I work through my dictionary of Proto-Samoyedic and choose loan words, I might change this.

Here is a sample text with just the sound changes, no other changes applied.

Schleicher's Fable
áwai yahmái ōrnā́ ná áht, há áswām darst. há gə̄rúm wázam wazad; há máza báram; há žámana ā́su barad. áwiš ákaibeh waučad: "žámana phásyā áswām-ča ázati, sā́r mai agnutar". áswāh tu waukand: "srudí awai! tád phásyamah, ahmái agnutár sā́r: žamā, pátiš, hā áweh ōrnā́ ǯarmam waft, áwibeh tu ōrnā́ ná ahti. tád sasruwā́h áwiš azrám buǯad.

Nouns will be next, most likely thematic nouns but this will take awhile as I need to debate how much influence the samoyedic languages will have on the nouns.

EDIT: made some changes to the sound changes and changed the example text.

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Last edited by Tiamat on Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:47 am 
Sumerul
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This is a good start! I like this a lot. One question, though: you have the rule that a stop before another stop becomes a fricative in rule 18 (if I understand it right), but I see no /f/ and no /x/ in your final inventory.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:42 pm 
Avisaru
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WeepingElf wrote:
This is a good start! I like this a lot. One question, though: you have the rule that a stop before another stop becomes a fricative in rule 18 (if I understand it right), but I see no /f/ and no /x/ in your final inventory.



/p t k b d g/ all have fricative allophones as a result of those rules. Because it is meant to be a proto-language, I wasn't sure about making specific allophony rules. The lenition of a stop before another stop, would be included with in that were I to make such rules.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:02 am 
Sumerul
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Vortex wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
This is a good start! I like this a lot. One question, though: you have the rule that a stop before another stop becomes a fricative in rule 18 (if I understand it right), but I see no /f/ and no /x/ in your final inventory.



/p t k b d g/ all have fricative allophones as a result of those rules. Because it is meant to be a proto-language, I wasn't sure about making specific allophony rules. The lenition of a stop before another stop, would be included with in that were I to make such rules.


I understand.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:50 am 
Avisaru
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Alright so while I work out the athematic (figuring the accent system and potential paradigm collapses is quite a task), I will discuss the changes that took place across the board.

EDIT: I forgot to mention since the code stuff doesn't allow for double accents, stressed long vowels will be marked with a circumflex.

What's new?

The most important change to take place to noun morphology in Proto-Karasuk is the loss of original locative and ablative, and the creation of new locative and ablative cases along with two new cases prolative/comiative case and the lative case (all of these from now on will be referred to as secondary cases). These new cases are descended from grammaticalized adpositions affixes onto the dative forms of the noun. A similar development can be found in a geographically close, they are not spoken at the same time, Tocharian Languages. However the development is not related. This development in PK is the product of extended contact with Samoyedic speakers.The new secondary cases are *-pi < *h₁epi " near, by, at" (new locative), *-ti < **h₂eti "away" (new ablative), *-ka < **km̥(-th₂) "along, with" (prolative/comiative), *-da < *de "to" (lative). The secondary cases occur at the phrase level, so when you have two or more nouns in a noun phrase the secondary case appears on the last noun with the others in the modified dative (eg. *órk-aibe-ča ə́rš-aibe-ti "from the wolves and bears"). As another side note, some of the old secondary cases were maintained in the form of adverbs (*náxti "at night/nightly" < *nékwt-i "night-loc.").

There are other developments I want to make (such as collapse of the neuter), but I need to tinker with them for a bit and I might delay them to a later stage since what happened to the cases is a pretty major change. Though one change I will definitely make is the loss of the dual outside of specific words, usually body parts that come in pairs (eyes, ears, arms legs).

Thematic stems

O-Stems
O-stems consist of masculine and neuter nouns, which like their Proto-Indo-European counterparts differ in the nominative singular and nominative plural and accusative plural. The o-stems have two accent subclasses, oxytonic (stress on final syllable) and barytonic (stress on the first syllable). Outside of the difference in stress placement, these two differ in the form the dative plural takes. In the secondary cases the stress of oxytonic nouns fall on the final syllable of the dative case suffix (in the singular it is the only syllable).

Code:
Barytonic                     Oxytonic
    sing        plural        sing        plural
N   -ah/am      -āh/ā         -áh/ám      -âh/â
A   -am         -ān/ā         -ám         -ân/â
G   -ahe        -ānām         -áhe        -ânām
D   -āi         -aibeh        -âi         -âibeh
I   -ā          -āiš          -â          -âiš
L   -āi-pi      -aibe-pi      -âi-pi      -aibyá-pi
Ab  -āi-ti      -aibe-ti      -âi-ti      -aibyá-ti
P   -āi-ka      -aibe-ka      -âi-ka      -aibyá-ka
La  -āi-da      -aibe-da      -âi-da      -aibyá-da


Ā-stems


Ā-stems are all feminine and in PK they diverge from PIE in so far as they stop behaving like athematic nouns in terms of accent patterns. Like the o-stems, the ā-stems have two accent patterns, oxytonic and barytonic. The old amphidynamic accent ā-stems merge with the oxytonic patterns with the old weak form being generalized to the where the strong forms once were.

Code:
Barytonic                     Oxytonic
    sing        plural        sing        plural
N   -ā            -āh          -â            -âh
A   -ām           -āh          -âm           -âh
G   -ayāh         -ānām        -áyāh         -ânām
D   -ayāi         -ābeh        -áyāi         -âbeh
I   -ā            -ābiš        -â            -âbiš
L   -ayāi-pi      -ābe-pi      -ayâi-pi      -ābyá-pi
Ab  -ayāi-ti      -ābe-ti      -ayâi-ti      -ābyá-ti
P   -ayāi-ka      -ābe-ka      -ayâi-ka      -ābyá-ka
La  -ayāi-da      -ābe-da      -ayâi-da      -ābyá-da


Alright that will be it for tonight, next up the rest of the thematic nouns, ablaut, and athematic nouns. Not sure if they will all make the next update, but we will see.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:41 pm 
Avisaru
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Ablaut

Before I continue onto the athematic stems, I need to talk about ablaut. I have not finalized the specifics of the system, but I plan on having function similar to vedic sanskrit for the most part (unless I find anything on the iranian ablaut system that makes me want to make changes). Like sanskrit, the ablaut system is no longer based on a o-e-null, but on a long-short-null system due to the collapse of /o/ and /e/ into /a/. Some remnants of the older system may appear in the form of palatalization on a preceding velar.

Code:
ā   āi        āu        ār      yār      wār     ān      ām
a   ai   əi   au   əu   ar      yar      war     an      am
0   i    i    u    u    ər/r    er       or      a/n     a/m

Athematic Stems

Athematic stems are a lot more varied than the thematic stems. Athematic stems have 4 subtypes (Consonant stems, Nasal/liquid stems, r/n stems, U/I stems). They also have more varied accentual patterns. The accent patterns types are static (barytonic and oxytonic), proterokinetic, which has stress on the beginning in the strong case and stress on the suffix in the weak cases, amphikinetic, which has stress on the beginning in the strong case and stress on the end in the weak case, hysterokinetic, which has stress on the suffix in strong cases and the ending in the weak cases (suffix refers to the affix that goes in between the case suffix and the stem, and ending refers to the case suffix). The strong and weak cases are the same in every subclass. The nominative singular and plural and the accusative singular.

Accent and Ablaut

Ablaut is very important to the accentual classes of athematic nouns. Whenever there is an accent shift, changes in ablaut grade are triggered. Below I will provide a short summary of the basic ablaut grades for both the strong and weak cases. Some exceptions may exist though due to development of the cases in the oblique and accusative singular.

static:
- no changes occur

proterokinetic:
- strong: short grade vowel in beginning syllable and zero grade on the suffix
- weak: zero grade vowel in beginning syllable and short grade on the suffix

amphikinetic:
- strong: short grade vowel in beginning syllable and zero grade on the ending
- weak: zero grade vowel in beginning syllable and short grade on the ending

hysterokinetic:
- strong: short grade on the suffix (though the nominative singular may be long grade) and zero on the ending
- weak: zero grade on the suffix and short grade on the ending

Consonant Stems

Consonant stems are stems that end in a consonant (shocking I know) and these can include root nouns (nouns with out a suffix before the case endings) and nouns that end with suffixes that end with a stop. These nouns are largely masculine (I don't think there is any neuter nouns in this class) and a mix of static (barytonic) and amphikinetic.

Code:
Barytonic                      Amphikinetic
   sing         plural         sing        plural
N   -           -ah            -           -ah
A   -am         -ah            -am         -áh
G   -ah         -ām            -áh         -âm
D   -āi         -beh           -âi         -byáh
I   -ā          -biš           -â          -bíš
L   -āi-pi      -be-pi         -âi-pi      -byá-pi
Ab  -āi-ti      -be-ti         -âi-ti      -byá-ti
P   -āi-ka      -be-ka         -âi-ka      -byá-ka
La  -āi-da      -be-da         -âi-da      -byá-da


R and N stems

R and N stems are nouns that have suffixes that end in r or n. These nouns are largely masculine with some feminine and neuter. They also all have the hysterokinetic accent-ablaut pattern. Because these nouns have the same accent and ablaut patterns, I have decided to include in the same subclass.

The following paradigm is for masculine n-stem nouns and masculine and feminine r-stems.

Code:
R-stem                     `      N-stem
   sing      plural               sing        plural
N   -â         -ár-ah             -â         -án-ah
A   -ár-am     -r-ah              -an-am     -n-áh
G   -r-áh      -ər-nâm            -n-áh      -a-nâm
D   -r-âi      -ər-byáh           -n-âi      -a-byáh
I   -r-ā       -ər-bíš            -n-â       -a-bíš
L   -r-âi-pi   -ər-byá-pi         -n-âi-pi   -a-byá-pi
Ab  -r-âi-ti   -ər-byá-ti         -n-âi-ti   -a-byá-ti
P   -r-âi-ka   -ər-byá-ka         -n-âi-ka   -a-byá-ka
La  -r-âi-da   -ər-byá-da         -n-âi-da   -a-byá-da


Neuter N-stems unlike the masculine and feminine r and n stems have a static (barytonic) accent-ablaut pattern.

Code:
   sing      plural
N   -a         -āni
A   -a         -āni
G   -n-ah      -n-ām
D   -n-āi      -a-beh
I   -n-a       -a-biš
L   -n-āi-pi   -a-be-pi
Ab  -n-āi-ti   -a-be-ti
P   -n-āi-ka   -a-be-ka
LA  -n-āi-da   -a-be-da


There is a small class or r and n stem nouns that combine the two, where they are r-stems in the strong cases but n-stems in the weak cases. These nouns will disappear in later stages, but a treated differently in their daughters so it is safe to assume that they still exist at this stage.

H-Stems

This is a pretty small class descended from the PIE s-stem class and I plan on largely merging it with the regular consonant stems, but since both Vedic sanskrit and Avestan maintained it, I thought it would be good to touch on. This class has a static accent-ablaut pattern (oxytonic) and is largely neuter.

Code:
     sing      plural
N   -áh         -áh-i
A   -áh         -áh-i
G   -áh-ah      -áh-ām
D   -áh-āi      -á-beh
I   -áh-ā       -á-biš
L   -ah-âi-pi   -a-byá-pi
Ab  -ah-âi-ti   -a-byá-ti
P   -ah-âi-ka   -a-byá-ka
LA  -ah-âi-da   -a-byá-da


To Be Continued

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:04 pm 
Avisaru
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Nouns continued

U/I Stems

These nouns can be any of the genders, the accent-ablaut patterns have been regularized to being proterokinetic. Some of the words of this class are loan words from Proto-Samoyedic. These have an underlying *-əi- or *-əu- instead of *-ai- or *-au-.

Code:
I-stem                     `   U-stem
   sing        plural            sing       plural
N   -i-š       -ay-ah            -u-š        -aw-ah
A   -i-m       -î-n              -u-m        -û-n
G   -ái-š      -í-nām            -áu-š       -ú-nām
D   -áy-ai     -í-beh            -áw-ai      -ú-beh
I   -áy-ā      -í-biš            -áw-ā       -ú-biš
L   -ay-ái-pi  -i-byá-pi         -aw-ái-pi   -u-byá-pi
Ab  -ay-ái-ti  -i-byá-ti         -aw-ái-ti   -u-byá-ti
P   -ay-ái-ka  -i-byá-ka         -aw-ái-ka   -u-byá-ka
La  -ay-ái-da  -i-byá-da         -aw-ái-da   -u-byá-da


The is a very small minority of this class that have a different conjugation paradigm, but it is such a small number that it is not really worthwhile to go over atm and will be largely merged with the above in the descendents

Ū/Ī-Stems

This last class isn't an athematic class but I forgot to talk about them earlier. This group contains a lot of feminine nouns especially feminine nouns derived from masculine counter parts and is heavily influenced by the feminine ā-stem. Like the ā-stem this class has been regularized to being oxytonic.

Code:
Ī-stem                        Ū-stem
   sing          plural        sing        plural
N   -î           -îš           -û           -ûš
A   -îm          -îš           -ûm          -ûš
G   -yâh         -ínām         -wâh         -únām
D   -yâi         -íbeh         -wâi         -úbeh
I   -yâ          -íbiš         -wâ          -úbiš
L   -yâi-pi      -ibyá-pi      -wâi-pi      -ubyá-pi
Ab  -yâi-ti      -ibyá-ti      -wâi-ti      -ubyá-ti
P   -yâi-ka      -ibyá-ka      -wâi-ka      -ubyá-ka
La  -yâi-da      -ibyá-da      -wâi-da      -ubyá-da


Examples

Alright so I just gave you all a lot of paradigms, but no example to get a feel for the language. Well fear not, I am going to provide you with just that.

A-stems

*búza- "he-goat", *zaišá- "arrow, throwing spear"
Code:
N   *búzah     *búzāh          *zaišáh     *zaišāh
A   *búzam     *búzān          *zaišám     *zaišān
G   *búzahe    *búzānām        *zaišáhe    *zaišânām
D   *búzāi     *búzaibeh       *zaišâi     *zaišâibeh
I   *búzā      *búzāiš         *zaišâ      *zaišâiš
L   *búzāipi   *búzaibepi      *zaišâipi   *zaišaibyápi
Ab  *búzāiti   *búzaibeti      *zaišâiti   *zaišaibyáti
P   *búzāika   *búzaibeka      *zaišâika   *zaišaibyáka
La  *búzāida   *búzaibeda      *zaišâida   *zaišaibyáda


Ā-Stems

*áswā- "mare", *jyā́- "bowstring"
Code:
N   *áswā        *áswāh         *jyâ        *jyâh
A   *áswām       *áswāh         *jyâm       *jyâh
G   *áswayāh     *áswānām       *jyáyāh     *jyânām
D   *áswayāi     *áswābeh       *jyáyāi     *jyâbeh
I   *áswā        *áswābiš       *jyâ        *jyâbiš
L   *áswayāipi   *áswābepi      *jyayâipi   *jyābyápi
Ab  *áswayāiti   *áswābeti      *jyayâiti   *jyābyáti
P   *áswayāika   *áswābeka      *jyayâika   *jyābyáka
La  *áswayāida   *áswābeda      *jyayâida   *jyābyáda


Consonant Stems

*ášš- "axle", *pad- "foot"
Code:
N   *áš         *áššah         *pád       *pádah
A   *áššam      *áššah         *pádam     *padáh
G   *áššah      *áššām         *padáh     *padâm
D   *áššāi      *ážbeh         *padâi     *paðbyáh
I   *áššā       *ážbiš         *padâ      *paðbíš
L   *áššāipi    *ážbepi        *padâipi   *paðbyápi
Ab  *áššāiti    *ážbeti        *padâiti   *paðbyáti
P   *áššāika    *ážbeka        *padâika   *paðbyáka
La  *áššāida    *ážbeda        *padâida   *paðbyáda


R/N-stems

*pətar- "father", *grāwan- "quern, stone for making soma", *náman- (neuter) "name"
Code:
N   *pətâ       *pətárah          *grāwâ       *grāwánah
A   *pətáram    *pətrah           *grāwanam    *grāwnáh
G   *pətráh     *pətərnâm         *grāwnáh     *grāwanâm
D   *pətrâi     *pətərbyáh        *grāwnâi     *grāwabyáh
I   *pətrâ      *pətərbíš         *grāwnâ      *grāwabíš
L   *pətrâipi   *pətərbyápi       *grāwnâipi   *grāwabyápi
Ab  *pətrâiti   *pətərbyáti       *grāwnâiti   *grāwabyáti
P   *pətrâika   *pətərbyáka       *grāwnâika   *grāwabyáka
La  *pətrâida   *pətərbyáda       *grāwnâida   *grāwabyáda

N   *náma        *námāni
A   *náma        *námāni
G   *nánnah      *námnām
D   *nánnāi      *námabeh
I   *nánna       *námabiš
L   *nánnāipi    *námabepi
Ab  *nánnāiti    *námabeti
P   *nánnāika    *námabeka
LA  *nánnāida    *námabeda


H-Stem

*ǯanáh- "family"
Code:
N   *ǯanáh       *ǯanáhi
A   *ǯanáh       *ǯanáhi
G   *ǯanáhah     *ǯanáhām
D   *ǯanáhāi     *ǯanábeh
I   *ǯanáhā      *ǯanábiš
L   *ǯanahâipi   *ǯanabyápi
Ab  *ǯanahâiti   *ǯanabyáti
P   *ǯanahâika   *ǯanabyáka
LA  *ǯanahâida   *ǯanabyáda


I/U-Stems

*mánti- "thought, *hónu- "son"
Code:
N   *mántiš     *mántayah          *hónuš       *hónawah
A   *mántim     *matîn             *hónum       *hūnûn
G   *matáiš     *matínām           *hūnáuš      *hūnúnām
D   *matáyai    *matíbeh           *hūnáwai     *hūnúbeh
I   *matáyā     *matíbiš           *hūnáwā      *hūnúbiš
L   *matayáipi  *matibyápi         *hūnawáipi   *hūnubyápi
Ab  *matayáiti  *matibyáti         *hūnawáiti   *hūnubyáti
P   *matayáika  *matibyáka         *hūnawáika   *hūnubyáka
La  *matayáida  *matibyáda         *hūnawáida   *hūnubyáda


Ū/Ī-Stems

*ōrčī- "she-wolf", *hwasrū- "mother in law"
Code:
N   *ōrčî        *ōrčîš          *hwasrû          *hwasrûš
A   *ōrčîm       *ōrčîš          *hwasrûm         *hwasrûš
G   *ōrčyâh      *ōrčínām        *hwasrwâh        *hwasrunām
D   *ōrčyâi      *ōrčíbeh        *hwasrwâi        *hwasrúbeh
I   *ōrčyâ       *ōrčíbiš        *hwasrwâ         *hwasrúbiš
L   *ōrčyâipi    *ōrčibyápi      *hwasrwâipi      *hwasrubyápi
Ab  *ōrčyâiti    *ōrčibyáti      *hwasrwâiti      *hwasrubyáti
P   *ōrčyâika    *ōrčibyáka      *hwasrwâika      *hwasrubyáka
La  *ōrčyâida    *ōrčibyáda      *hwasrwâida      *hwasrubyáda

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:18 pm 
Sumerul
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I just started working on an IE language myself, and it's supposed to be vaguely Anatolian-Hellenistic, considering where it's spoken, but nowhere near as inspired as this. I'd definitely like to see more of what you have, beyond simple morphology. Also, I didn't realize that PII simply did away with the e/o distinction like that altogether.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:19 am 
Smeric
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It's beautiful!

I so want to do a IE conlang, but the verbal and nominal morphology intimidates me.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:38 am 
Sumerul
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It's really not that bad. There's really only one core paradigm; everything on top of that is just a difference here or there.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:26 am 
Sumerul
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TaylorS wrote:
It's beautiful!

I so want to do a IE conlang, but the verbal and nominal morphology intimidates me.


I think it's partly because IE languages are familiar enough to us that we're allowed to play with the the phonologies and phonotactics, But I wouldn't be intimidated: It's a lot of leveling across the board. You can go as deep or shallow ino the pool as you want. Just have fun with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:44 pm 
Avisaru
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Just wanted to stop in quickly to let you all know I'm still working on this. I just have stuff with school and grad apps that are kinda slowing my work. Plus putting all these paradigms up here was a massive pain, so I had to take a break. I'm kinda fiddling around the verbs a bit right now. My plan is like the phonology have them be on the Iranian side of things, but I want to try to maybe work in some yeniseian influence. Not sure how much would be appropriate at the moment, so there might not be that much for this level of the language but there will definitely be more in at least one of the daughters. Syntax, I'm not sure how I want things for this level. Definitely have a good idea for the modern daughters though. Is there anything that you all would like to see the most, so I can prioritize putting it up?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:30 pm 
Sumerul
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Well, I'm interested and waiting for more. The best I can say is that Thank you, Vortex, though for inspiring me to work on my own. You're right though. Those tables are a pain in the ass, and an interesting choice for a substrate. Considering how far east of a region where the language is being spoken, are we going to see any other influences other than Yeniseian? I mean, I can't offer any suggestions, my knowledge of Central Asian languages is sketchy at best.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:28 pm 
Avisaru
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Neek wrote:
Well, I'm interested and waiting for more. The best I can say is that Thank you, Vortex, though for inspiring me to work on my own. You're right though. Those tables are a pain in the ass, and an interesting choice for a substrate. Considering how far east of a region where the language is being spoken, are we going to see any other influences other than Yeniseian? I mean, I can't offer any suggestions, my knowledge of Central Asian languages is sketchy at best.


So far the main influences are samoyedic and yeniseian since those are the two main language families in the region at this point. Later stages will have sanskrit/prakrit, sogdian, tocharian, turkic, mongolian, arabic, persian, and russian. This is roughly in chronological order but I don't want to reveal more about how this influence will play, because it would ruin the surprise :P . More on the reason for Yeniseian and Samoyedic influence, some of the theories for the people of the pazyryk, karasuk, tagar cultures have that they were samoyedic or yeniseian and some inscriptions from the altay mountains point to a yeniseian language having been spoken during, I think, the gokturk period, I decided I should account for this in my Proto-Karasuk.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:21 pm 
Avisaru
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Also, Neek, I look forward to seeing some of your stuff, when you are ready to put it up!

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