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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:37 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
Posts: 270
Location: El Paso, TX
Since all the cool kids seem to be doing a scratchpad, I'm at the point where I feel like this needs some more sets of eyes, and I'm out of ideas for words/concepts to add.

FIRST, A BIT OF THE CONWORLD AND CONCULTURE THAT I THINK YOU NEED TO KNOW
The conworld, to which I have yet to give a name, is populated entirely by anthropomorphic characters.

Proto-Wideriver is named after, obviously, Wideriver (I use English calques if I know the literal meaning I want, but there is a native name), which flows west to east and is my conworld's longest navigable river (edited to add: an impressive 46° in longitude long, according to G.Projector!), for much of its length capable of supporting two-way traffic even in modern times. It's supposed to be spoken over a wide enough area to break off into seven branches (Northern, Eastern, Southern, Western, Central, Coastal, and Watershed), each with a few daughterlangs of their own. So I need space for ~30 daughterlangs, which I'm probably going to give my protolang speakers through conquest. The language area is bounded by a coastline to the south and east, by a mountain range to the west, and by forest to the north. The conculture gets most of its food through agriculture but they do eat fish if they're close enough to the coast and/or Wideriver.

Now, on to adapting my mini-grammar to forum post format...

PHONOLOGY
/p pʰ b t tʰ d k kʰ ɡ ʔ/
/m n ŋ/
/s h/
/l r j w/
/a aː i iː u uː/

Anything with "Proto-" in my conculture is not supposed to be a written language, so it has not been taken to the Romanization Challenge Thread. When I feel the family is better-developed, I'll do it to the daughterlangs that are supposed to be written.

PHONOTACTICS
CV(C/ː). C is any consonant and V is any of /a i u/. /ij uw/ can't occur syllable-finally (they become /iː uː/ if they would) and /h/ can't follow an aspirated consonant (it is deleted if it would).

It's not supposed to be known for sure where the stress was in any word, and in any case stress is not phonemic.

OTHER DETAILS
Proto-Wideriver is a strongly right-branching VSO language with pronoun dropping. It has time-manner-place order in adpositional phrases. It uses no prepositions, but commonly uses postpositions. I currently have nothing else for the grammar.

COMMON AFFIXES
Where two are given, the first is used if allowed by the phonotactics; otherwise, the second is used.
-a/-ʔa: genitive
-hi/-i: partitive
-k/-ka: nominalizer
-suː: in-, un-
-san: plural marker (optionally)
-n/-in: ordinalizer
-ŋa: inchoative
-si: cessative
-raw: causative
sar: perfect marker (comes between the verb being modified and the subject)

The lexicon is here. I will add to it as we come up with more words, but I want to build up words from existing stock as much as possible.

THINGS I'D RATHER HANG ON TO
All of these lists are subject to additions/deletions/other changes as I get comments.

Words I'd rather loan:
  • Words related to wintry weather. Snow is supposed to be exotic to most of their modern-day descendants (especially if their native language is not in the Northern branch) in much the same way that having warm, sunny weather all the time is exotic to most Americans.
  • Mathematical concepts other than addition and subtraction that I don't have yet. I have another proto-conculture that I want to use as a source of some of this, and that proto-conculture is supposed to be advanced enough to be capable of astronomy (as much of it as can be done with the naked eye, anyway).

Words I'd rather get from changes of meaning of the existing vocabulary:
  • The word I have for fox is supposed to eventually gain sexual connotations and then become a vulgar term for "prostitute" a lot of the time. The southern and coastal branches are supposed to have language contact with the language family from which they're getting the replacement words (which, if you're curious, are Ozy and Millie references).
  • Impolite terms for the genitalia.

Words I'd rather derive from words in daughterlangs:
  • Articles.
  • Words for any technology that is not known to have existed ca. 5000 B.C. (give or take a couple centuries on either side).
  • Words for zero (despite my wish not to have it distinct from the word for none) and numbers higher than ten.

.SC SOUND CHANGE FILES
In all of these, the first listed change is supposed to convert the verb system from relatively isolating to inflecting. I like the sound changes themselves, but occasionally what is supposed to be the same sound change is split across more than one line—if you can think of a way to optimize the file (that is known to work with the SCA²), speak up.

Proto-WR to Proto-Northern WR:
Code:
V=aeiouāēīōū
U=aeiou
Ū=āēīōū
Y=eiēīj
W=ouōūw
C=kĥgŋtŧdnpφbmʔhslrjwfv
S=ktp
Σ=ĥŧφ
Z=gdb
N=ŋnm
K=kgŋ
T=tdn
P=pbm

aː|ā
eː|ē
iː|ī
oː|ō
uː|ū
kʰ|ĥ
ɡ|g
tʰ|ŧ
pʰ|φ

 //_
i/e/_CC
i/e/_C#
u/o/_CC
u/o/_C#
ao/au/_
ae/ai/_
ʔ//_
h//_
Σ/S/_
aa/ā/_
ii/ī/_
ji/ī/_/V_
j//_i
ī/ji/V_
uu/ū/_
wu/ū/_/V_
w//_u
ū/wu/V_
Ū/U/U_
aj/ē/_/_V
ai/ē/_
aw/ō/_/_V
au/ō/_
i/e/_CC
i/e/_C#
u/o/_CC
u/o/_C#
ao/au/_
ae/ai/_
S//_S
U//VC_#
w/v/V_V
w/v/V_C/_C#
w/v/V_#
w/v/#_
K/T/_T
K/P/_P
T/K/_K
T/P/_P
P/K/_K
P/T/_T
Z/S/_S
v/f/_S
Ū/U/_


Proto-WR to Proto-Eastern WR:
Code:
V=aeiouāīū
U=aiu
Ū=āīū
Y=eiīj
W=ouūw
C=kĥxgğɣŋtŧθdðnpφfbvmʔhszlrjwʃʧʒʤ
S=ktps
Σ=ĥŧφ
Θ=xθfʃʧ
Z=gdbz
Δ=ɣðvʒʤ
N=ŋnm
K=kĥxgğŋ
T=tŧθdðn
P=pφfbvm

aː|ā
eː|ē
iː|ī
oː|ō
uː|ū
kʰ|ĥ
ɡ|g
ɣ|ğ
tʰ|ŧ
pʰ|φ
t͡ʃ|ʧ
d͡ʒ|ʤ

 //_
j/i/_/_Y
w/u/_/_W
i/j/V_V
i/j/_V
u/w/V_V
u/w/_V
ΣS/\\/_
Sh/Σ/_
Σ/Θ/_
Z/Δ/V_V
Z//_²
S/Z/V_V
S//_²
w/v/_/C_
u/v/V_#
j/ʒ/_/C_
i/ʒ/V_#
tj/ʧ/_
dj/ʤ/_
sj/ʃ/_
zj/ʤ/_
Ū/U/_
ai/e/_
au/o/_
l//_w
l/u/V_/V_V
uu/u/_


Proto-WR to Proto-Southern WR:
Code:
V=aeiouāēīōū
U=aeiou
Ū=āēīōū
Y=eiēījȷ
W=ouōūwʍ
C=kĥgŋtŧdnpφbmʔhslrjȷwʍħ
S=ktp
Σ=ĥŧφ
Z=gdb
N=ŋnm
K=kĥgŋ
T=tŧdn
P=pφbm
aː|ā
eː|ē
iː|ī
oː|ō
uː|ū
kʰ|ĥ
ɡ|g
tʰ|ŧ
pʰ|φ
j̊|ȷ

 //_
ay/ē/_/_V
aw/ō/_/_V
iw/jū/_/_V
u/o/_CC
u/o/_C#
i/e/_CC
i/e/_C#
Sʔ/S²/_
Σʔ/SΣ/_
Zʔ/Z²/_
ʔS/S²/_
ʔΣ/SΣ/_
ʔZ/Z²/_
ʔ/ȷ/_Y
j/ȷ/S_
j/ȷ/Σ_
j/ȷ/s_
j/ȷ/h_
ʔ/ʍ/_W
w/ʍ/S_
w/ʍ/Σ_
w/ʍ/s_
w/ʍ/h_
ʔ/ː/U_
ʔ//Ū_
ʔ/ħ/_
Sh/Σ/_
ΣS/\\/_
Z/S/_#
K/T/_T
K/P/_P
T/K/_K
T/P/_P
P/K/_K
P/T/_T
Σ/S/Σ…_


Proto-WR to Proto-Western WR:
Code:
V=aiuāīū
U=aiu
Ū=āīū
Y=iīj
W=uūw
C=kĥɡŋcćɟɲtŧdnpφbmhslrjwvʧqʤnjʃ
S=kctp
Σ=ĥćŧφ
Z=ɡɟdb
N=ŋɲnm
K=kĥɡŋ
Ḱ=cćɟɲ
T=tŧdn
Q=ʧqʤnj
P=pφbm
L=lr

aː|ā
iː|ī
uː|ū
kʰ|ĥ
cʰ|ć
tʰ|ŧ
pʰ|φ
t͡ʃ|ʧ
t͡ʃʰ|q
d͡ʒ|ʤ
n͡ʒ̃|nj

 //_
K/T/_T
K/P/_P
T/K/_K
T/P/_P
P/K/_K
P/T/_T
ΣS/\\/_
Sh/Σ/_
ŋ/n/_V/V_V
ʔ//_
aa/ā/_
ii/ī/_
ji/ī/_
uu/ū/_
wu/ū/_
j/i/V_/V_V
l/u/V_/V_V
w/u/V_/V_V
w/v/_
i/j/C_V
u/w/C_V/L_
i//C_jV
u//C_wV
Kj/Ḱ/_
K/Ḱ/_Y
Tj/Q/_
T/Q/_Y
sj/ʃ/_
s/ʃ/_Y
Sʃ/ʧ/_
Σʃ/q/_
Zʃ/ʤ/_
Nʃ/nj/_
N//_nj


Proto-WR to Proto-Central WR:
Code:
V=aeiouāēīōū
U=aeiou
Ū=āēīōū
Y=eiēīj
W=ouōūw
C=kĥgŋtŧdnpφbmʔhsʂzʐlrjwʦʨdzʥɕʑčžvf
S=ktp
Σ=ĥŧφ
Z=gdb
N=ŋnm
K=kgŋ
T=tdn
P=pbm
Ś=sʂɕʦčʨ
Ź=zʐʑdzžʥ

aː|ā
eː|ē
iː|ī
oː|ō
uː|ū
kʰ|ĥ
ɡ|g
tʰ|ŧ
pʰ|φ
t͡s|ʦ
ʈ͡ʂ|č
t͡ɕ|ʨ
d͡z|ʣ
ɖ͡ʐ|ž
d͡ʑ|ʥ

 sar /ʂ/_
 //_
aa/ā/_
ii/ī/_
uu/ū/_
i//C_j
u//C_w
ji/ī/_
j//_ī
wu/ū/_
w//_ū
Ū/U/U_
Ū/U/_U
w/u/_
j/i/_
U//VC_CV
K/T/_T
K/P/_P
T/K/_K
T/P/_P
P/K/_K
P/T/_T
ʔ//C_
Sh/Σ/_
ΣS/\\/_
Σs/\\/_
rs/ʂ/_
sr/ʂ/_
ts/ʦ/_
tʂ/č/_
ti/ʨ/_V
si/ɕ/_V
r//ʂ_
r//_ʂ
t/ʨ/_i
s/ɕ/_i
S/Z/V_V
Ś/Ź/V_V
S/Z/_Z
Ś/Ź/_Z
S/Z/_Ź
Ś/Ź/_Ź
Z/S/_S
Ź/Ś/_S
Z/S/_Ś
Ź/Ś/_Ś
S//_²
S//_Σ
Źd/\\/_
dz/dz/_
dʑ/ž/_
dʑ/ʥ/_
i/ʑ/V_#
u/v/V_#
i/ʑ/V_V
u/v/V_V
i/ɕ/V_Σ/_ΣC
u/f/V_Σ/_ΣC
i/ɕ/V_S/_SC
u/f/V_S/_SC
i/ɕ/V_ʔ/_ʔC
u/f/V_ʔ/_ʔC
i/j/V_C#
u/w/V_C#
i/ʑ/V_C/_CC
i/ʑ/V_dŹ
i/ɕ/V_tŚ
u/v/V_C/_CC
u/v/V_dŹ
u/f/V_tŚ
j/i/_
w/u/_
s//ɕ_
s//_ɕ
ʂ//ɕ_
ʂ//_ɕ
z//ʑ_
z//_ʑ
ʐ//ʑ_
ʐ//_ʑ
dz/z/Z_/d_
ž/ʐ/Z_/d_
ʥ/ʑ/Z_/d_
d//ɡ_Ź
d//b_Ź
ʦ/s/S_/t_
̌č/ʂ/S_/t_
ʨ/ɕ/S_/t_
t//k_Ź
t//p_Ź


Proto-WR to Proto-Coastal WR:
Code:
V=aeiouāēīōū
U=aeiou
Ū=āēīōū
Y=eiēīj
W=ouōūw
C=kĥxgğɣŋtŧθdðnpφfbvmʔhszlrjw
S=ktps
Σ=ĥŧφ
Θ=xθf
Z=gdbz
Δ=ɣðv
N=ŋnm
K=kĥxgğŋ
T=tŧθdðn
P=pφfbvm

aː|ā
eː|ē
iː|ī
oː|ō
uː|ū
kʰ|ĥ
ɡ|g
tʰ|ŧ
pʰ|φ

 //_
iw/ju/_
ŋ/n/_V/V_V
K/T/_T
K/T/_s
K/P/_P
T/K/_K
T/P/_P
P/K/_K
P/T/_T
P/T/_s
Sh/Σ/_
ΣS/\\/_
Σs/\\/_
aj/e/_/_V
aw/o/_/_V
ʔ//_
aa/ā/_
ai/ē/_
ie/ē/_
ii/ī/_
au/ō/_
uo/ō/_
uu/ū/_
e/j/C_V
o/w/C_V
U//VC_CV
U//S_rV
U//Σ_rV
U//Z_rV
S/Z/Z_
K/T/_T
K/T/_s
K/P/_P
T/K/_K
T/P/_P
P/K/_K
P/T/_T
P/T/_s
Σ/Θ/_
Θ/Δ/V_V
S//_Θ
S/Z/V_V
Z//_²
S//_²
N//_²


Proto-WR to Proto-Watershed WR:
Code:
V=aiuāēīōū
U=aeiou
Ū=āēīōū
Y=iīj
W=uūw
C=kĥɡŋcćɟɲtŧdnpφbmhslrjwfvʧqʤʃʒʔ
S=kctp
Ṣ=kctpfsʃʧ
Σ=ĥćŧφ
Z=ɡɟdb
Ẓ=ɡɟdbvzʒʤ
N=ŋɲnm
K=kĥɡŋ
Ḱ=cćɟɲ
T=tŧdn
Q=ʧqʤn
P=pφbm
L=lr
aː|ā
iː|ī
uː|ū
kʰ|ĥ
cʰ|ć
tʰ|ŧ
pʰ|φ
t͡ʃ|ʧ
t͡ʃʰ|q
d͡ʒ|ʤ

 //_
K/T/_T
K/P/_P
T/K/_K
T/P/_P
P/K/_K
P/T/_T
ΣS/\\/_
Sh/Σ/_
ŋ/n/_V/V_V
aa/ā/_
ii/ī/_
uu/ū/_
j/ʒ/_/_C
j/i/_
w/v/_/_C
w/u/_
i/j/C_V
u/w/C_V/L_
i//C_jV
u//C_wV
Kj/Ḱ/_
K/Ḱ/_Y
Tj/Q/_
T/Q/_Y
sj/ʃ/_
s/ʃ/_Y
Sʃ/ʧ/_
Σʃ/q/_
Zʃ/ʤ/_
Ẓ/Ṣ/_#
Ẓ/Ṣ/_Ṣ
Ẓ/Ṣ/_Σ
Σ/S/_#
Σ/S/_Ṣ
Ṣ/Ẓ/_Ẓ
Σ/Z/_Ẓ

There are more .sc files, but after these there's supposed to be a stopping point for me to make regularization/lexical changes. I'm also writing a long post when I'm about to help carry in groceries, so I'll add the other .sc files I have on request.

I will entertain any questions/suggestions about any of the above—I need help, after all.

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My conlangs on this site:
Proto-Wideriver


Last edited by StrangerCoug on Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:45 pm 
Sanci
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Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:51 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Texas
I am not knowledgeable enough to help with this, but I am very much interested in seeing examples of this in motion. As in some charts of Proto-Wideriver and the various branches and then to some of the different daughter languages once you have things worked out.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:27 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
Posts: 270
Location: El Paso, TX
I myself am interested in how the borrowing and language contact works out.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:34 am 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
Posts: 270
Location: El Paso, TX
Took a cue from German and added wukʰtʰaj – canoe.

I need a word for otter and I don't see any obvious way to derive it from what I have. (satpakʰkaʔa is already taken to mean fish.) Any ideas?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:28 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:43 pm
Posts: 352
Location: Iowa
Otter generally derives from the word for water (Germanic, Slavic), often compounded with dog (Celtic, Malay) or local similar animals (sable in Persian (and Turkish and Albanian, probably calqued as "sable" was loaned from Persian to Turkish to Albanian), fox for Arabic).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:18 pm 
Avisaru
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Posts: 270
Location: El Paso, TX
wapʰpakʰkaʔa it is for otter, then, since I have a word for dog. (I have a word for fox, but that's a compound already and I didn't want too long of a word.)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:51 am 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
Posts: 270
Location: El Paso, TX
OK, guys, I've reorganized the lists in the Google spreadsheet. There are now two depending on the translation direction, a setup I feel I'm going to need soon.

A few words related to life and death (including words for life and death themselves) have been added to the list because they were missing and I felt they could be derived in obvious ways, and a word relating to work has been added as well. Some more words in other categories are upcoming as well; most likely some more pairs of opposites.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:38 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:23 pm
Posts: 22
Looks like I could have some fun with this :-D

From Elamite: /kusa/=To hammer, forge


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:27 pm 
Avisaru
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Will add on the next update (despite being a new root); Google Drive is being a jerk right now.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:42 pm 
Avisaru
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Location: El Paso, TX
Sixteen words added (one of them from Jūnzǐ's suggestion, two more derived from that, and thirteen of my own).

Edited to add: Added a seventeenth; I want to avoid using the same form for intransitive and transitive and I typically use the causative marker to convert the former to the latter.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:22 pm 
Avisaru
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One more word has been added; the meaning of another has been changed slightly for consistency.

I want to leave the wordlist alone for now and work on the grammar. It's VSO, it branches right, adpositional phrases are time-manner-place, and it uses postpositions rather than prepositions. What else, though? Is it realistic to have a consensus on only that much for a protolang that pretty much fractures to pieces? What aspects are more realistic to decide for my written daughterlangs first?

The first thing I want to figure out is how to make an irrealis mood (from the existing stock, if possible) and where to stick it in the verb paradigm (currently base + perfect marker + pronoun maximally). If I can develop multiple for specific purposes so it doesn't have just one irrealis mood, I'd like to.

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 3:28 am 
Avisaru
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Location: Ohio
Are you still working on Wideriver?

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 1:13 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
Posts: 270
Location: El Paso, TX
This isn't an active project, no.

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