Conworlds: What environment lead to nomadics?

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Re: Conworlds: What environment lead to nomadics?

Post by CatDoom »

Lambuzhao wrote:Where, exactly?
Second sentence of the entry on "Botai Culture" on the page "Domestication of the Horse":
The Botai culture was a culture of foragers who seem to have adopted horseback riding in order to hunt the abundant wild horses of northern Kazakhstan between 3500–3000 BCE.
Both sources cited in-line for that statement pre-date the publication that pointed out the milk residue found at Botai sites, leading to my statement that their being horse-riding hunter-gatherers was the "initial interpretation."
Lambuzhao wrote:And granted about the saddling issue. plenty of folks rode horses bareback or with just some kind of blanket or two, but plenty of others used some kind of reinforced blanket-cum-surcingle, and even stirrups, centuries before the saddle-tree was developed.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information about stirrups. It's my understanding that the late development of the stirrup is well documented, and attributable to the fact that, without a solid support, using stirrups can cause serious injury to a horse's back fairly quickly.
Lambuzhao wrote:Incidentally, the Wikipedia article about the Saddle states that horse-riding came not long after initial domestication. Sounds like riding was not the initial motivation for horse domestication, according to that source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle

Aaaah, Wikipedia. The joys of an openly-editable encyclopedia: the inconsistencies never cease.
First of all, the statements in question appear to be reasonably well sourced, so the fact that anyone can edit the articles is largely immaterial. Secondly, a degree of disagreement ("inconsistency") is to be expected in academic discourse, especially with regard to a discipline like Archaeology, which is based on interpreting a fragmentary and often ambiguous body of evidence. Thirdly, regardless of what the initial motivation for domesticating horses may have been, I feel that my point still stands. The domestic horse was a suitable animal for riding very early in its history, possibly even in its "wild" state; the same cannot be said for the llama.

From a purely common-sense standpoint, it seems much more plausible that people might discover the rideability of an already rideable animal than that they would develop the idea of breeding non-rideable animals to produce a rideable one in the absence of an existing model of rideability. Based on the existing evidence, in fact, it look like the latter scenario probably never happened in the course of human history.

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Re: Conworlds: What environment lead to nomadics?

Post by zompist »

Lambuzhao, at one point you asked if I had any evidence that the Peruvians* had any idea of riding llamas. I'd say these pictures are pretty definitive:

http://www.precolombino.cl/wp/wp-conten ... 18-pm2.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VFCsuP7OMVA/S ... s320/4.bmp

http://www.alexanderancientart.com/cat/p0774/p0774h.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23 ... bf4347.jpg

(These are all from Google image search so I don't know the dates. But these all seem to be Moche.

But being able to conceive of a thing doesn't mean that they tried to do it (beyond obvious things like having children ride llamas). After all, they also produced this and it doesn't mean that they had rideable fish:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5048/523 ... ccf6_o.jpg

(* I use "Peruvians" for ancient peoples in Peru, for lack of a better term, and following the practice of other writers. "Quechua" is not any better as Quechua was only one pre-Columbian language, and "Tawantinsuyu" is also no better— it would be like referring to the ancient Mediterranean as "Rome".)

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Re: Conworlds: What environment lead to nomadics?

Post by CatDoom »

Interesting... that would seem to invalidate part of my argument, since the concept of riding a llama seems to have existed, making it more plausible that they could have tried breeding riding llamas.

It's a little off topic, but I just wanted to mention the Moche were amazing. They achieved some truly astonishing feats of craftsmanship and technology, not the least of which was discovering a recipe for a strong acid that could dissolve gold and silver, and subsequently that they could use such a solution to gild copper objects. They basically developed a form of electroplating more than a thousand years before anybody else in the world.

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