Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin version?

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Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin version?

Post by marconatrix »

When I was on here the other day I saw the lines "But if of ships I now should sing ..." as someone's sig and half remembering the quotation put it into a search engine, expecting it to be Yates or some such. It is of course from LOTR. So hunting around I found the full text here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEjHd54reI

(click on "show more" in the description).

Don't ask my why but for some reason I translated the last two lines into Cornish, and then went on to translate the whole thing. Since Sindarin is largely based on Middle Welsh, at least as far as sounds and some of the grammar goes, Cornish ought to have a similar sort of 'sound texture'.

So then I went looking for the 'original' version, but can't seem to find one. Did Tolkien simply compose this in English from the start? If so someone somewhere must at least have attempted to reconstruct the Elven version.

I realise I may be disappointed, as I came upon one site which was rather dismissive of Elvish fans, claiming that no one really understood the languages and simply did word-for-word dictionary 'translations' from English (or presumably any other native language) and (Shock! Horror!!) that this even applied to the Elvish used in the films.

You comments please. (BTW I'm sort of luke-warm when it comes to JRRT but I should probably look again at his languages, and he was certainly an inspiration to many creative people, which I suppose is the mark of good art, that it inspires more art).

My translation FWIW (I'm thinking of making a (spoken!) sound file) :

** Galargan Galadrïel dhe Lórïen **

A dhel y kenis, del owreg, yn tyller heb parow,
Ha'n gwyns a dho 'vel hwyth kosel, der oll an skorrennow.

A-dryv an howl, a-dal an loer, yth eze mordardh lowr,
Hag eno worth Treth Ilvarin, y teve Prenn an Owr.

Yn-dann an ster byz vynnari, ow terlentri mar deg,
Erbynn an fos, dhe Edhelvar, a Dirïon Edhleg.

Hir-devyz yw an del a owr, war varrow blydhenyeg,
Hag omma dres Moryow Dibarth, y koedh dagrow Edhleg.

A Lórïen, an gwav a dheu, pan vydh pub gwydh di-dhel,
Pub delenn y'n avon a goedh, ha'n liv a's deg a wel.

A Lórïen, hir re drigis, war dreth an tir estren,
Ha'n Ster-an-Howl gwedhryz, plethyz, y'n gurun war ow fenn.

Mar kanav vy a worholyon, py skath a'm portho vy?
Py par lester dhe'm doen arte, a-dreus mar vras weylgi?
Literal and deliberately un-poetic back translation :
Of leaves I sang, golden leaves, in a place without equal,
And the wind came (impf) as a gentle breath, through all the branches.

Behind the Sun, opposite the Moon, there was plenty of surf,
And there by Ilmarin Beach, there grew (impf) the Tree of Gold.

Under the stars for ever, shining so fairly,
Against the wall, in Eldamar, of Elvish Tirion.

Long-grown are the leaves of gold, on annual twigs,
And here across the Seas of Separation, Elvish tears fall.

O Lórien, the winter comes, when each tree* will be leafless
Each leaf into the river falls, and the flow/flood bears it out of sight.

O Lórien, long I have stayed, on the beach of the foreign land,
With the '-x-Angel-x- -x-Stars of Gold-x-' 'Sun-stars'** withered, woven in the crown on my head.

If I sing of ships, what boat may carry me?
What sort of vessel to take me back/again, across so wide/great a wild-ocean?
* gwydh is actually a collective noun, a single tree being gwydhenn, but the internal rhyme that came unbidden with vydh 'will be' was just too good to lose. I suppose you might translate it as 'every copse', 'every stand of trees' or similar.
** The English text has, And in a fading crown have twined the golden Elanor. I couldn't fit the word 'golden' (owreg) or even 'gold' (owr) into this line, so knowing that Elanor was a plant name, I reinterpreted it as the Cornish for 'Golden Angel' El an Owr. Now that I've dug out an Elvish book (pre Silmarilion!) I read, "êl+anor, 'Sun-Star', a small star-shaped golden flower that grew on Cerin Amroth in Lothlórien (I:365;III:306)", so good enough?
----
Edit : I was never too happy with the 'angel' (even though it might be seen as equivalent to some Middle Earthly entity), so have now part-translated Elanor = 'Sun Star' to 'Ster-an-Owr' lit. 'Stars of Gold'. Maybe I should go the whole way to 'Ster an Howl' or 'Howl-sterenn' or something, but for now I'd like to keep at least a suggestion of the original name. After all 'gold' seems to be the defining quality of Lothlórien with it's Mallorn trees.
Edit : A couple more minor tweaks. Now it's 'Ster-an-Howl', 'Stars of the Sun/Sun-stars' which is pretty much a straight translation of 'El-Anor'.
Last edited by marconatrix on Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Zaarin »

That signature would be mine. :D I have also searched for a Sindarin (or Quenya, given that "Namárië" is in the High Elven tongue) original of "Galadriel's Lament," but, to my knowledge, if such a thing existed Tolkien did not record it.

Your Cornish translation is really interesting. I tend to avoid poetry when doing practice translations, but I'm half-tempted to try that out in my pseudo-Gaulish conlang.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

Zaarin wrote:That signature would be mine. :D I have also searched for a Sindarin (or Quenya, given that "Namárië" is in the High Elven tongue) original of "Galadriel's Lament," but, to my knowledge, if such a thing existed Tolkien did not record it.
Yes, I kept finding the Namárië piece, I probably thought Sindarin because Galadriel is S. (Q. Altáriel). The place names in the piece are Q. though, I Sindarin/Cornish-ized them a bit, Eldarmar > Edhelvar; Ilmarin > Ilvarin, and I created a C. word for 'Elven' from S. Ethel + C. -eg, treating 'ethel' as if it were a Cornish word with an epenthetic vowel. Tirion I left alone. Oddly in Welsh it means 'tender, gracious'.

The lines in your sig, which set all this off, somehow really resonate, a poetic gem that cries out "translate me!" -- LOL!
Your Cornish translation is really interesting. I tend to avoid poetry when doing practice translations, but I'm half-tempted to try that out in my pseudo-Gaulish conlang.
I'm not normally a poetic type, but now and again the muse will strike without warning. Most of what we have of Middle Cornish is in syllabic verse, in fact this probably arose as an excuse from editing the somewhat enigmatic Charter Endorsement*. I'll have to have a look at your Gaulish when I get time, IIRC most of the familiar features of 'Insular Celtic' weren't present back then. But I could probably assist with etymology etc.

So thanks for your interest :-)

* https://www.dropbox.com/home/kerneweg
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Zaarin »

So I ended up doing it: I translated "Galadriel's Song of Eldamar" into Brigantian, my Gaulish-inspired conlang. Old Brigantian was grammatically and phonologically very close to Gaulish, and I've brought in a good number of Gaulish words as well, but Brigantian has developed a little beyond the essentially Gaulish-cloned Old Brigantian. The Kingdom of Ueruχselobrigas is far from the sea (or any large body of water), so I had to improvise a bit...
Eri sildrion, eri sildrion orsonon, līrassū, et sildriā orsonon reroχsar:
Eri ōstri līrassū, et troi brēχā ōstros lulaune.
Ōχsos arcossin, ōχsos iūlīn, apās marus χlōrun isset,
Et ognon ordūi fūli Tanlos orsesos reroχse.
Uo sirūs Olloniχtos eni Eldamarē tāsle,
Eni Eldamarē ognon ruanobo Tirii Eluon.
Trās rātās marūs loci sosī uer tanlen rātānon sildriā orsonan reroχsontro,
Ion frig loci sonlē au apī marū lacruā Eluon diriont.
Lōriene! Uaimon, so temins cimis ansildrionpe, gilntet;
Eni fiχtu sildriā diriont, alcū siliet.
Lōriene! Troi teminas maruā smir eni tablū sonlē iailū
Et eni alcaunon sūnten arcossirun orsonos plaiū.
Et frig eri parχanon līrsān io, cu parχan nepi are me gilsāt?
Trās litamisamen apās marōs cu parχan nepi me bersāt?
And pronunciation:
[ˈerɪ ˈsɪldrjɔn ˈerɪ ˈsɪldrjɔn ˈorsonɔn ˈliːrasːuː]
[ˈɛt ˈsɪldrjaː ˈorsonɔn ˈreroxsar]
[ˈerɪ ˈoːstrɪ ˈliːrasːuː]
[ˈɛt ˈtroi ˈbreːxaː ˈoːstros ˈlulaunɪ]
[ˈoːxsos ˈarkosːɪn ˈoːxsos ˈjuːliːn]
[ˈapaːs ˈmarus ˈxloːrun ˈɪsːɪt]
[ˈɛt ˈoɲɔn ˈorduːɪ ˈfuːlɪ ˈtanlos ˈorsɪsos ˈreroxsɪ]
[ˈwo ˈsiruːs ˈolːoˌnixtos ˈɛnɪ ˈɛldamareː ˈtaːslɪ]
[ˈɛnɪ ˈɛldamareː ˈoɲɔn ˈruanobo ˈtirjɪ ˈɛlwɔn]
[ˈtraːs ˈraːtaːs ˈmaruːs ˈloki ˈsosiː ˈwer ˈtanlɪn ˈraːtaːnɔn ˈsɪldrjaː ˈorsonɔn ˈreroxsɔntro]
[ˈjɔn ˈfriɣ ˈloki ˈsɔnleː ˈau ˈapiː ˈmaruː ˈlakrwaː ˈɛlwɔn ˈdirjɔnt]
[ˈloːrjɪnɪ ˈwaimɔn ˈso ˈtɛmɪnz ˈkɪmɪs ˈansɪldrjɔnpɪ ˈgɪlntɪt]
[ˈɛnɪ ˈfixtu ˈsɪldrjaː ˈdirjɔnt ˈalkuː ˈsɪljɪt]
[ˈloːrjɪnɪ ˈtroi ˈtɛmɪnas ˈmarwaː ˈsmir ˈɛnɪ ˈtabluː ˈsonleː ˈjailuː]
[ˈɛt ˈɛnɪ ˈalkaunɔn ˈsuːntɪn ˈarkosːirun ˈorsonɔn ˈplajuː]
[ˈɛt ˈfriɣ ˈerɪ ˈparxanɔn ˈliːrsaːnjo]
[ˈku ˈparxan ˈnɛpɪ ˈarɪ ˈme ˈgɪlsaːt]
[ˈtraːs ˈlitamɪsamɪn ˈapaːs ˈmaroːs ˈku ˈparxan ˈnɛpi ˈme ˈbɛrsaːt]
And rough translation:
Concerning leaves, about golden leaves, I sang, and golden leaves grew:
Concerning wind I sang, and through the branches a wind blew.
Over the sun, over the moon, the great water* was green**,
And near heaven’s gate*** grew a golden Tree.
Under Ever-night’s stars in Eldamar it shone,
In Eldamar near to the walls of Tirion† of the Elves.
Across the many years in that place on the tree of years the golden leaves have grown,
When now in this place away from the great water* many Elven tears fall.
O Lórien! Winter, that bare and leafless day, comes;
Into the mountain stream the leaves fall, the valley river flows.
O Lórien! Through too many days in this land I have dwelt
And into a fading crown golden elanor I plaited.
And now if concerning canoes I should sing, what canoe for me would come?
Across the widest of great waters* what ship could carry me?


*The Brigantians live far from the sea and have no specific term for it in their language.
**I don’t really have a word for foam…
***Ilmarin, i.e., Valinor
†I treated “Tirion” as if it were a neuter masculine O-stem noun: Tirion Tirii.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

Right, I'll go away and study that and get back to you. I'm thinking the relationship between Brigantian and Neo-Brittanic ought to be roughly equivalent to that between Quenya and Sindarin.

Ueruχselobrigas? 'Over-high-nobles' ??? Where did they live then. There's nowhere in Britain that's *that* far from the sea. Were they up in the Alps or Central Iberia or somewhere? Just curious :-)
---------------
Back to my original question to the board at large. Poking around on the net over the w/e I've found plenty of post-JRRT Elvish, and in fact the do seem to have pinned down a lot of the morphology (not so sure about the syntax though). But so far no sign of a Sindarin (or Quenya) version of this particular lament. You'd think it would be an obvious choice, well I would ...
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Nortaneous »

Here is the exact opposite sound texture.

I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.

Jjup wexnz jot wqp vcznxcznx wqkup chap synp, wop kap wqkup pvpcyp synp
[ⁿdʑù wênə̄ɴ dʒó wɒ̀ vv̩̄tsə̂ɴtsə̂ɴ wɒ̄kù tɕà sz̩̀ɴ, wò kà wɒ̄kù pʙ̩̀tsz̩̀ sz̩̀ɴ]
leaves gold TOP 1 sing\1S~MAJ 3=ADV PST, and there 3 grow PST

Lztpqp jot wqp vcznxcznx wqkup chap, wop wqkup mtye ka kzp wqt nyx she chyn
[ɺə́pɒ̀ dʑó wɒ̀ vv̩tsə̂ɴtsə̂ɴ wɒ̄kù tɕà, wò wɒ̄kù ḿ̩jē kā kə̀ wɒ́ ɲ̩̂ ɕē tɕʑ̄ɴ]
wind TOP 1 sing\1S~MAJ 3=ADV, and 3 toward there\GEN come and2 branches through blow

a less terrible system:
Njù wêine jó wào vurcêncên waokù chà sìrn, wò kà waokù pùrcìr sìrn.
Lépào jó wào vurcêncên waokù chà, wò waokù múryei ka kè wáo nyîr she chirn.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

@ zaarin :

Well it has lost IE /p/, has /kw > p/ and /Cs, Ct/ > /xs, xt/ so in that it looks Gaulish, i.e. p-Celtic. And it has what look like reasonably familiar IE noun and verb inflexions. OTOH most of the roots are unknown to me, so a heavy substratum effect? Also you show consistent initial stress (which also developed in Irish), but no consistent reduction of following syllables, but some vowels which I'd expect to be long are shown short. Either there's some rule at work or maybe the scribe just didn't put in all the length marks?

Here's my take on the first four lines (to be cont.)

------------------

Eri sildrion, eri sildrion orsonon, līrassū, et sildriā orsonon reroχsar:
Concerning leaves, about golden leaves, I sang, and golden leaves grew:

eri < (p)eri? cf. WC _er'bynn_ < *_are_pennī_ but this seem so take the dat. case;
sildri- unknown root (to me at least);
-on gen.pl.?
or- 'gold' is this the native Celtic word, rather than L. loan? Is the vowel really short?
-son- noun > adj formative?
-ā fem.nom.pl (or acc. if the verb is passive?)
re-rog-ss-ar : redup. impf? pass/deponant? 3p of root unkown to me. Cons. root?
līr-a-ss-ū : perf. 1s < līr ?? Why no redup. here? Thematic -a- ??
et 'and' Really, is this attested in Gaulish, just wondering ...

----

Eri ōstri līrassū, et troi brēχā ōstros lulaune.
Concerning wind I sang, and through the branches a wind blew.

ōstr-i : dat.sing. of unknown root. should it not be -ī given e.g. -ū ??
" -os : masc.nom.s
lu-laun-e : redup. impf?? 3s of another unknown root. Why the diff. treatment from reroxsar?? Do we have a difference of aspect here, or just different verb classes?
troi < trei? Origin of the 'der' in my text, first cognate so far!
brēx-ā : acc? pl. of a noun related to L. Bracchium 'arm' ?? Intervoc. -x- from /kk/?

----

Ōχsos arcossin, ōχsos iūlīn, apās marus χlōrun isset,
Over the sun, over the moon, the great water* was green**,

ōxs- < oups 'over'. But why the -os ? (Cornish _a-ugh_ 'above')
arcoss-, iūli- : unknown roots
-in dat. sing. ?
ap-ās < akw- + acc.pl. 'waters' ?
marus (for mārūs ??) : At last a familiar root! (CB meur, W mawr, OI már, mór)
xlōr-un : acc.sing? The initial x- is odd, is this somehow a Greek loan ?!
isset : 3s of some past tense of the copula. Agreement if apās is pl?

----

Et ognon ordūi fūli Tanlos orsesos reroχse.
And near heaven’s gate*** grew a golden Tree.

ognon : unidentified prep. prob. originally the gen.pl. of a noun ??
-i : gen. sing., so something like "(at the) sides of the gate of heaven".
ordū-, fūl- : unknown roots.
tanl-os nom.sing. 'tree', unknown root?
or-ses-os : why -ses- here but -sos- above?
re-rog-ss-e : redup.impf.3s 'it grew, used to grow, was growing'. Full redup. not just the vowel as in Greek?

----------

As for 'foam', your people must have seen foam on rivers, even small streams where there's a fall etc. W,C have ewyn, B eon < CC owino-, so you could maybe use that. However I'm not sure 'foam' is quite the right concept (although it works in JRRT's English version) since we're talking about breakers, surf, at least I think so. The neo-Cornish for surf which I used is mordardh, from mor 'sea' + tardha 'to explode, burst out, break (of dawn)' etc. So 'surfing' is mordardha, which sounds oddly like Mort-d'Arthur!

I'll just edit in a couple more lines :

----

Uo sirūs Olloniχtos eni Eldamarē tāsle,
Under Ever-night’s stars in Eldamar it shone,

uo prep. 'under' Irish _fo_ Brittonic only as a prefix _go-_ I think.
sir-ūs : Acc. (Loc?) pl.; W. sêr & C. ster (both coll.) Gaulish seems to have had the version without the /t/ in _Sirona_ (Godess)
oll-o- 'all'
nixt-os : gen. sing. of consonant stem? or u-stem?? cf. Gaelic _an-nochd_ = C. _ha-neth_ 'tonight' (lit. 'this night'); W _neith-iwr_ 'last night'.
eni prep. 'in', _yn_ in my C. text.
So we've just had a record run of five consecutive cognate morphemes!
Eldamarē : Acc? Loc? Dat? (How can you tell I was too thick to do Latin at school?)
tāsl-e : 3s impf? but no -ss- infix or redup. Stem formed by ablaut maybe??

----

Eni Eldamarē ognon ruanobo Tirii Eluon.
In Eldamar near to the walls of Tirion† of the Elves.

ognon ... Elvon : a nice run of genitives, something like "(by the) sides of/at the wall(s) of T. of the Elves.
ruanobo : if pl, I would by now have expected -on. Or is it a Dat.pl. in which case _ognon_ takes the Dat. e.g. _ordūi_ above. So ruan-obo < ruanos? 'wall'?

----
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Zaarin »

marconatrix wrote:Right, I'll go away and study that and get back to you. I'm thinking the relationship between Brigantian and Neo-Brittanic ought to be roughly equivalent to that between Quenya and Sindarin.

Ueruχselobrigas? 'Over-high-nobles' ??? Where did they live then. There's nowhere in Britain that's *that* far from the sea. Were they up in the Alps or Central Iberia or somewhere? Just curious :-)
Close -- "over-high-hill." They are part of a conworld I'm working on (with no explanation of why their language sounds so close to a real one). They live on the lower slopes of the impassible mountains known as the World Wall.
marconatrix wrote:@ zaarin :

Well it has lost IE /p/, has /kw > p/ and /Cs, Ct/ > /xs, xt/ so in that it looks Gaulish, i.e. p-Celtic. And it has what look like reasonably familiar IE noun and verb inflexions. OTOH most of the roots are unknown to me, so a heavy substratum effect? Also you show consistent initial stress (which also developed in Irish), but no consistent reduction of following syllables, but some vowels which I'd expect to be long are shown short. Either there's some rule at work or maybe the scribe just didn't put in all the length marks?

Here's my take on the first four lines (to be cont.)
I should disclaim that the bulk of the language's roots are a priori, but with a pretty hefty sampling of PIE roots and an admixture of roots meant to resemble Greek and Latin. There are also a number of loanwords from a substrate language. The inflections, however, were lifted directly from Gaulish, with a few sound changes over time. Vowel reduction will probably result in the next phase of the language (this conworld is still very much in development).
eri < (p)eri? cf. WC _er'bynn_ < *_are_pennī_ but this seem so take the dat. case;
Your etymology of eri is correct; it means "concerning" with the genitive and "near" with the accusative (or something similar; I don't have my notes on hand).
sildri- unknown root (to me at least);
-on gen.pl.?
Sildri is an a priori word; sildrion is gen.pl.
or- 'gold' is this the native Celtic word, rather than L. loan? Is the vowel really short?
-son- noun > adj formative?
Ors- is borrowed from the aforementioned substrate; ors-onon is gen.pl. (it's an N-stem).
-ā fem.nom.pl
Correct.
re-rog-ss-ar : redup. impf? pass/deponant? 3p of root unkown to me. Cons. root?
Yes, reduplicated partitive. This root is also a priori.
līr-a-ss-ū : perf. 1s < līr ?? Why no redup. here? Thematic -a- ??
Yes, thematic -a-; this is a weak partitive, not a strong one.
et 'and' Really, is this attested in Gaulish, just wondering ...
Not to my knowledge and I haven't decided for certain if I'm keeping it. If I do, it will be strictly for joining clauses not words.
ōstr-i : dat.sing. of unknown root. should it not be -ī given e.g. -ū ??
Quite right; that was a typo on my part.
lu-laun-e : redup. impf?? 3s of another unknown root. Why the diff. treatment from reroxsar?? Do we have a difference of aspect here, or just different verb classes?
Yes, different verb classes, but also sound change at work. Old Brigantian -iw- yields Brigantian -u-; thus Old Brigantian liwlawne > Brigantian lulaune.
troi < trei? Origin of the 'der' in my text, first cognate so far!
:D
brēx-ā : acc? pl. of a noun related to L. Bracchium 'arm' ?? Intervoc. -x- from /kk/?
Yes and yes.
ōxs- < oups 'over'. But why the -os ? (Cornish _a-ugh_ 'above')
I must confess to not knowing; I copied it out of a Gaulish text.
-in dat. sing. ?
Yes.
ap-ās < akw- + acc.pl. 'waters' ?
Yes, except it's nominative singular (it's a masculine A-stem).
marus (for mārūs ??) : At last a familiar root! (CB meur, W mawr, OI már, mór)
Yes, and that is also another typo on my part (in my lexicon, I think, and not in the text proper; have to fix that...). :oops:
xlōr-un : acc.sing? The initial x- is odd, is this somehow a Greek loan ?!
Sort of. As I mentioned above, I put some Latin/Greek lookalikes in the proto-language for flavor. Brigantian is not native to the region where it is now spoken, but at present I also have no intention of fleshing out the region where it originates--so I put some foreignisms in as possible ancient loans.
isset : 3s of some past tense of the copula. Agreement if apās is pl?
See note above; apās is singular. Otherwise, yes, past tense of copula.
ognon : unidentified prep. prob. originally the gen.pl. of a noun ??
The original Old Brigantian pronoun was oncon; Old Brigantian /nk ng nj/ > Brigantian /ɲ/ <gn>.
-i : gen. sing., so something like "(at the) sides of the gate of heaven".
Precisely.
or-ses-os : why -ses- here but -sos- above?
Should have been orsonos. >_<
re-rog-ss-e : redup.impf.3s 'it grew, used to grow, was growing'. Full redup. not just the vowel as in Greek?
Correct.
As for 'foam', your people must have seen foam on rivers, even small streams where there's a fall etc. W,C have ewyn, B eon < CC owino-, so you could maybe use that. However I'm not sure 'foam' is quite the right concept (although it works in JRRT's English version) since we're talking about breakers, surf, at least I think so. The neo-Cornish for surf which I used is mordardh, from mor 'sea' + tardha 'to explode, burst out, break (of dawn)' etc. So 'surfing' is mordardha, which sounds oddly like Mort-d'Arthur!
Good point. I created thirty new words for this translation, including some I was shocked I didn't have (including "day" and "year"), but I didn't think "foam" was exactly a word I'd be using often. :/

I'm thoroughly impressed by your knowledge of Celtic, which far exceeds my own. I built Brigantian based on what Gaulish and Proto-Celtic resources I could find; I'm glad that the end result works. :D
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What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

A couple of extra lines got added in an edit, I think probably while you were replying. I'm done for tonight but thanks for your attention.

My knowledge, such as it is, mostly relates to Middle and Modern WCB, The modern Gaelics and a bit of Old Irish. (If you want to see what happens if a language like Gaulish develops a strong initial stress, then look at OI, in short the result is a bit like an earthquake that plays havoc with the verbs!) The case system is already diminished in OI, and WCB have lost all trace of declension, apart from the odd fossilised form. So I'm all at sea with cases and noun endings. Actually I seem to have done better than I expected.

There's some nice stuff for me to chew over in the remaining lines, so watch this space tomorrow ...

Oh, what do you mean by a 'partitive' verb? I've only encountered the term as a noun case.
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

‮suoenatroN wrote:Here is the exact opposite sound texture.

I sang of leaves ...
Jjup wexnz jot wqp vcznxcznx wqkup chap synp, wop kap wqkup pvpcyp synp
[ⁿdʑù wênə̄ɴ dʒó wɒ̀ vv̩̄tsə̂ɴtsə̂ɴ wɒ̄kù tɕà sz̩̀ɴ, wò kà wɒ̄kù pʙ̩̀tsz̩̀ sz̩̀ɴ]
leaves gold TOP 1 sing\1S~MAJ 3=ADV PST, and there 3 grow PST
...
Well, yes, that's just a little different ;-)

Could this be the new Babel Text?
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Zaarin »

marconatrix wrote:A couple of extra lines got added in an edit, I think probably while you were replying. I'm done for tonight but thanks for your attention.

My knowledge, such as it is, mostly relates to Middle and Modern WCB, The modern Gaelics and a bit of Old Irish. (If you want to see what happens if a language like Gaulish develops a strong initial stress, then look at OI, in short the result is a bit like an earthquake that plays havoc with the verbs!) The case system is already diminished in OI, and WCB have lost all trace of declension, apart from the odd fossilised form. So I'm all at sea with cases and noun endings. Actually I seem to have done better than I expected.

There's some nice stuff for me to chew over in the remaining lines, so watch this space tomorrow ...

Oh, what do you mean by a 'partitive' verb? I've only encountered the term as a noun case.
My brain is in a fog tonight. I meant "preterite" not "partitive." *facepalm*
uo prep. 'under' Irish _fo_ Brittonic only as a prefix _go-_ I think.
Quite right.
sir-ūs : Acc. (Loc?) pl.; W. sêr & C. ster (both coll.) Gaulish seems to have had the version without the /t/ in _Sirona_ (Godess)
Indeed.
oll-o- 'all'
nixt-os : gen. sing. of consonant stem? or u-stem?? cf. Gaelic _an-nochd_ = C. _ha-neth_ 'tonight' (lit. 'this night'); W _neith-iwr_ 'last night'.
Yes, ollos "all" + nixts "night" + -os O-stem nominative singular.
eni prep. 'in', _yn_ in my C. text.
Yep.
Eldamarē : Acc? Loc? Dat?
Locative.
tāsl-e : 3s impf? but no -ss- infix or redup. Stem formed by ablaut maybe??
Yes, there are three methods of past tense in Gaulish (and Brigantian): weak verbs, suffixed strong verbs, and suffixless strong verbs. Most suffixless strong verbs form past tense through reduplication, but certain verbs change the stem vowel to /ā/ instead.
ognon ... Elvon : a nice run of genitives, something like "(by the) sides of/at the wall(s) of T. of the Elves.
Yes, that was a fun sentence.
ruanobo : if pl, I would by now have expected -on. Or is it a Dat.pl. in which case _ognon_ takes the Dat. e.g. _ordūi_ above. So ruan-obo < ruanos? 'wall'?
Correct, from historical "riwanos."
Could this be the new Babel Text?
I rather like it; I'm thinking of running it through a few more of my languages when I get a chance. Tuolian, Brigantian's substrate language, would be fun because (like Quenya) Tuoli is very loosely inspired by Finnish, but unfortunately Tuoli has a very meager vocabulary--which means I'd have to do a lot more word building along the way. Not a bad thing, but it would take a lot of time. I have a few well-established languages from another project, though, that I could use. They're not very Celtic--in fact, they're closer to Semitic despite not being tricon--but they have vocab of ~300 words (cf. ~250 for Brigantian), and they are spoken by "Elves" (they're not human, but they're not actually elves in the traditional sense. The term comes from a linguistic "coincidence" from Tnaqite ʾeloḇ /ʔəˈlov/ "person").
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Dewrad »

I'll bite. In Gallo-Brittonic, in a fairly literal reading without much concession to poetry:

dolyās wo·cecana, dolyās auri, etic dolyās tumīssont,
winton wo·cecana, wintos to·axte, in cancābi swittāsset.

trās sawūl, trās lousnān, wor mori esāt owinos,
oncon traxtāi Nemesolissi tumīsset prennon auri.

wo sterās Aitouxseri in Albotrebāi tumīsset,
in Albotrebāi, oncon stlissubo Celicni albonon,

dolyās ro·tumīssont er' aiton wor cancās blēdnānon,
etic trās moryā dī·yo scarat nu ciyet dacrā Albonon.

Auronantus! to·aget giyamos, diyon noxton sepū dolyās,
dolyās ciyont in sramāi, abonā dī·liyet.

Auronantus! ro·sīrū ro·trebāssū in cē glendūi,
in coronāic sesniya sonnosteron auri.

extos nu mā wo·cassām longās, pēs longā to·me axsāt,
pēs longā to·me bersāt trās mori collitanon?


There's three loan-words in here: the stem auro- I've borrowed from Latin (we can't reconstruct a Celtic term for "gold". Or terms relating to archery. There you go.), and for "elf" and related terms I've borrowed Proto-Germanic *albaz as albo-. I gave up on a Celtic term for "crown" and borrowed the Latin.

I've also translated the proper nouns. Lórien becomes Auronantus "gold-valley", Eldamar becomes Albotrebā "Elf-home". Ilmaren becomes Nemesolissos "heaven-court". Tirion I've translated as Celicnon, which could mean "watch-tower" (but probably doesn't. "Feasting-hall" and "pillar" are other plausible meanings.).

Back-translated (because I can't be arsed with a gloss):

I sang of leaves, leaves of gold, and leaves grew,
I sang of wind, wind came, it blew in the branches.

Beyond the sun, beyond the moon, upon the sea was foam,
near the beach of Heaven-court grew a tree of gold.

Under the stars of Ever-eve, in Elf-home grew,
in Elf-home, near the walls of the Watch-tower of the Elves.

Leaves have grown for ever on the branches of the years,
and across the seas which separate now fall the tears of Elves.

Gold-valley! Winter comes, a naked day without leaves,
leaves fall into the stream, the river flows away.

Gold-valley! Very-long I have dwelled in this-here shore,
and in a crown I have woven sun-star of gold.

But now if I were to sing of ships, which ship would come to me,
which ship would carry me across the sea so broad?
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Zaarin »

Very nice. :D
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

Dewrad wrote:I'll bite. In Gallo-Brittonic, in a fairly literal reading without much concession to poetry:

dolyās wo·cecana, dolyās auri, etic dolyās tumīssont ...
Nice one Dewrad, forgive me if I don't get stuck into this until I've finished working through Zaarin's version.
There's three loan-words in here: the stem auro- I've borrowed from Latin (we can't reconstruct a Celtic term for "gold". Or terms relating to archery. There you go.), and for "elf" and related terms I've borrowed Proto-Germanic *albaz as albo-. I gave up on a Celtic term for "crown" and borrowed the Latin.
Hmm ... OC guarac, B gwareg, W gwarag 'bow'. This looks Celtic but might of course have been something the Old Brits picked up from former inhabitants. As for 'crown' maybe the Welsh word talaith is Celtic (put 'talaith' in the search box at http://www.geiriadur.ac.uk/gpc/gpc.html and look under meaning b). It certainly seems to refer to something more Elven looking than a standard modern crown :
y Tri Thywysog Taleithiog … because everie (one) of them did weare upon his bonet or helmet a coronet of gold … which in the Brytish or Welsh speach is called Talaeth.
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Bristel »

I'd translate this into Ercunic (my Celtic conlang), but the morphology and some sound changes need a major overhaul, and I'm feeling really unmotivated and scared to rework the whole thing over again... ;_;
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Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

Searching around the Web I've now come across some more translations. One to Quenya and two to Sindarin, although the quality may be doubtful. They're here :

http://xelag.home.xs4all.nl/quenya_comp_i_sang.html
http://tara.istad.org/translations.htm#galadriel
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index ... &TID=65701

Also one in Hungarian :
http://www.magyarulbabelben.net/works/e ... aknyelv.hu

I've collated the Elvish versions below. The English, which I now imagine was the real-world original, is in couplets which all rhyme, and which have a regular syllabic structure, each line being in two parts of 8 and 6 syllables. The first part often divides into two clear halves of 4 sylls each, but this isn't essential. There is also a pretty regular stress pattern with (mostly) alternative sylls stressed. In any case the lines divide 4 : 3 on stress. This means it works as English stress-timed verse, or as Welsh/Cornish syllabic verse. I.e. where each syllable carries equal weight/timing and the stress/pitch accent pattern rides over this. I sort of took this for granted in my adaptation, but then I've looked at an awful lot of syllabic verse (most of the Middle Cornish corpus!)

Now I would have expected the JRRT fan club, to be a fairly poetic lot, but it would seem that they can't count syllables, don't know how to introduce 'filler' words, and can't even manage a rhyme (see below). OTOH maybe their verse works in some entirely different way that I don't understand. Sindarin seems on the whole to be stressed like Welsh (and Cornish), but Quenya looks to have regular initial word-stress (like Finnish?) Anyone know how Finnish verse works?

So here we have three versions of the 14 lines, 42 translated lines in all. Of them only three have the correct 14 syllables, and only one of those has the required 8:6 division between the two parts. Of the 21 translated couplets only 7 rhyme, four of them in the Quenya text. (I've only considered the final syllables as in Welsh/Cornish/Breton, which might apply to S. but maybe not to Q.?)
Naergon Galadriel : Laer Galadriel : Galadriel's Song

1. I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew 4+4+6 : 14 !
Lirnen lassion, laurië lassion, ar laurië lassi tuianer 5+6+9 : 20
Linnen o laiss, o laiss vellin, a ennas galler laiss velthin 4+4+8 : 16
Linnen o laiss, laiss velthin, a laiss velthin ‘aller ennas 4+3+8 : 15
(I sang of leaves, leaves golden, and leaves golden grew there)

2. Of wind I sang, a wind there came, and in the branches blew 4+4+6 : 14 !
súrio lirnen, súrë utúlië, ar súyanes olwassen 5+6+7 : 18
O hûl linnen, sûl doll ennas, a rimp min gylf 4+4+4 : 12
O ‘waew linnen, gwaew doll, a vi i ngylf reviant 4+2+7 : 13
(Of wind I sang, (a) wind came and in the branches flew)

3. Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the sea 4+4+6 : 14 !
Anar pella, Isil pella, Eärë falastanë 4+4+7 : 15
Athan Anor, athan Ithil, buin Aear i falf 4+4+5 : 13
Athan Anor, athan Ithil, i falf reviant erin aear 4+4+9 : 17
(Beyond (the) Sun, beyond (the) Moon, the foam flew on-the sea)

4. And by the strand of Ilmarin, there grew a golden tree 4+4+6 : 14 !
ar mi Ilmarino hresta, Alda laurëa ortanë 8+8 : 16
A nan falas Ilmarin, gall 'aladh valthen 4+3+5 : 12
A nan lond Elbar, gall ‘aladh valthen 5+5 : 10
(And by-the strait (of) Star-home grew (a) tree golden)

5. Beneath the stars of Ever-eve, in Eldamar it shone 4+4+6 : 14 !
Oiosinyëo nu eleni, mi Eldamar cacálala 5+4+8 : 17
Nuin geil e-d[?] uireb, sill mi Maredhellen 2+4+6 : 12
Nuin ng[ei]l Ui-aduial, mi Maredhellen sill 2+4+6 : 12
(Beneath-the stars (of) Eternal-evening in Home-Elven (it) shone)

6. In Eldamar, beside the walls of Elven Tirion 4+4+6 : 14 !
mi Eldamar, Tiriono, ara rambar Eldaiva 4+4+7 : 15
Mi Maredhellen, nan raim Tirion edhellen 5+2+6 : 13
Mi Maredhellen, nan raim Ost-in-Edhil 5+2+4 : 11
(In Home-Elven by-the walls (of) City-of-the-Elves)

7. There long the [golden] leaves have grown, upon the branching years 8+6 : 14 !
Laurelassi lohtier andavë, et olwava yénillon 4+6+7 : 17
Ennas i laiss anann galler, am beliad idhrinn 8+6 : 14 !
Ennas anann i laiss ‘aller, erin ennin gill 4+4+5 : 13
(There long the leaves grew on-the years flowing)

8. While here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven tears 2+6+6 : 14 !
nan Alatairë pella sinomë, sí Eldanier lantëar 10+8 : 18
Ir sí, athan in aeair i [?]-erthar, si dannar i n[?]r edhellin 2+8+8 : 18
Ir sí, athan in aear laind, si dhanna i n[?]r edhellin 2+6+8 : 16
(When here beyond the seas wide now fall the tears elven)

9. O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day 4+4+6 : 14 !
A Lóriendë! Sí Hrívë utúlië, Arë helda lassevalta 5+7+8 : 20
Ae Lórien! I thrîw d[?]l, i aur lanc a pen-laiss 4+3+6 : 13
O Lórien! I Thrîw d[?]l, i aur gofn a dhínen 4+3+6 : 13
(O Lórien! The Winter comes, the day empty and silent)

10. The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away 8+6 : 14 !
lantëar lassi celumenna, ar síra Sírë oar 9+7 : 16
I laiss dannar, min nen, i Hîr rimma hae 4+2+5 : 11
I laiss dhannar, i vi gelu, i gelon r[?]b 4+4+4 : 12
(The leaves fall the in stream, the river flows)

11. O Lórien! Too long I[']ve dwelt, upon this Hither Shore 4+4+6 : 14 !
A Lóriendë! Fárië yéni, mi Falas Sina amárien 5+5+9 : 19
Ae Lórien! Anann dorthannen, nef Falas 4+5+3 : 12
O Lórien! Annan dorthannen, sí erin falas 4+5+5 : 14 ~
(O Lórien! Long I-dwelt this on-the shore)

12. And in a fading crown have twined, the golden elanor 8+6 : 14 !
ar fifírula rië irícien, laurëa elanarnen 11+7 : 18
Ah echannen r[?] belol, nan elanor valthen 7+6 : 13
A mi r[?] thinnen hwinia, in Elanor velthin 8+6 : 14 !
(And in (a) crown fading twirl the elanor golden)

13. But if of ships, I now should sing, what ship would come to me 4+4+6 : 14 !
Nan ciryaron, sí liruvan, quí tuluva nir cirya 4+4+7 : 15
Dan ae si linnon o gîr, man cair enni telitha? 7+7 : 14 ~
Ae si linnon o gair, man cair delitha enni 6+7 : 13
(If now I sing of ships, what ship would come to-me)

14. What ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea? 8+6 : 14 !
i cirya i nyë atacoluva, ter Eärë allanda? 10+7 : 17
Man cair nin achelitha, anuir athra lannon aear? 7+8 : 15
Man cair degitha nin, athaear hen land? 6+5 : 11
(What ship will-bring me across-sea this wide?)
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Salmoneus »

... seems a bit mean-spirited to be criticising the poetic standard of things that are:
a) translations - translating poetry, particularly formal poetry, poetically, is really hard
b) translated into languages with limited vocabularies and very few formal examples to follow
c) translated not by professionals but by random guys on the internet
d) weren't translated, i assume, to meet any specified objectives other than literal translation.

You treat it as a failure not to have 14 syllables per line. But it's only a failure if anybody set out to have that as an intention!
It might be pointed out that when Tolkien translated Beowulf, he did it into prose...
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

Fair enough Sal.

You have to understand my mindset. I began by thinking that there must be a Sindarin original out there somewhere. Or even if unpublished, if JRRT had composed it at least with S. in mind, then we might suppose that it would fall back into Sindarin quite 'naturally' for anyone familiar with the language. I'm not, but there are, I believe, plenty of Elvish language fans out there. Also, in a made-up language there's no real limit to the words available. If you require a word of a certain shape and meaning where none appears to exist, surely you can simply 'discover' a previously unknown synonym. I mean, with poorly known languages almost every new text will turn up a few new words

...

But if you look at the text below the video, you'll find one line that must be wrong :
And dive into water deep

...

And if you listen to the sound on the video, this is exactly what she sings. Which suggests it was in fact the original.



EDIT: sorry, buggered up by Salmoneus!
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by marconatrix »

OK, I think Nimrodel is getting close to doggerel, not inspiring like the Galadriel verse, but all the same, here's the start :-
Moren Edhleg, neb o mar splann, 'vel sterenn dres an jydh,
Hy fows owr-emlyz, marthuz kann, ha'y 'skizyow glas perfydh.

Kelmyz dh'y thal, yth o sterenn, hy gols o goloweg,
Haval dhe'n Howl, war bub skorrenn, yn Lórïen mar deg.

Kudenneg o, eselïeg, pur hweg o hi ha rydh,
Mar skav yth ê, yn jydh gwynseg, 'vel del a'n owrwernwydh.

Ryb dowrlamm Avon Nimrodel, yn lynn ylyn ha glan,
Hy lev kler, klywyz veu a-bell, ha'n arghans yn hy han.

Ny wodher hwath, pleth eth mar bell, yn tewolgow na splann,
Dhe-ves y hwandras Nimrodel, y'n menydhyow war-vann.
And now for the back-translation :
An Elvish maid, who was as bright, as a star through the day,
Her dress, gold-edged, wonderful shining-white, and her shoes a perfect grey*.

Bound to her brow (forehead), there was a star, her hair was luminous,
Just like the Sun, on every branch, in Lorien so fair.

Fine-haired (she) was, long-limbed, very sweet was she and free,
As light(ly) she went (impf.) on a windy day, as leaves from the linden (lit. 'golden-alder') trees.
* There are several meanings to 'glas' (also true in Welsh). It's used for the 'green' of vegetation, grey-green, blue-green and blue! OTOH 'loez' (Welsh 'llwyd') means the grey of mist and grey hair. Basically I chose 'glas' for it's association with plants and growth, whereas 'loez' associates more with age and desolation.

As for metre, replace 'wonderful' with 'a', and even the first two verses of my back-translation almost fit. So can it really be that hard? (I've never considered myself a poet or much of a literary type).

Edit : Added two more verses, after which the poem goes off on a completely different tack. So that's me finished with this JRRT. (but I still intend to comment on Z & D's versions here).

Back-trans (non-poetic) of the additional 2 verses :
Beside (the) waterfall of River Nimrodel, in a lake transparent and clean/clear,
Her voice clear, heard was from afar, and/with the silver in her song.

It is not known* yet, where (she) went so distant, in darkness nor bright(ness),
Away wandered N., in the hills/mountains on high.
* There's no exact English translation for this Brittonic form. As well as three persons sing. and pl. there's a seventh non-person person, which isn't exactly a passive, it simply omits any reference to the subject. In English you either have to put in a dummy subject 'somebody, nobody' etc. or else use a passive, i.e. "No one knows" or "it is not known".
Last edited by marconatrix on Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Salmoneus »

Fair enough Sal.

You have to understand my mindset. I began by thinking that there must be a Sindarin original out there somewhere. Or even if unpublished, if JRRT had composed it at least with S. in mind, then we might suppose that it would fall back into Sindarin quite 'naturally' for anyone familiar with the language. I'm not, but there are, I believe, plenty of Elvish language fans out there. Also, in a made-up language there's no real limit to the words available. If you require a word of a certain shape and meaning where none appears to exist, surely you can simply 'discover' a previously unknown synonym. I mean, with poorly known languages almost every new text will turn up a few new words.[/quote]
That's a philosophical question, though. Many people who write in Elvish are explicitly fans of Tolkien - they don't see the language as their posession to just make stuff up in - or else they don't see the job of a 'translator' being to make stuff up (which takes away the challenge of translation).
But if you look at the text below the video, you'll find one line that must be wrong :
And dive into water deep
Unfortunately, that's not really how poetry works - not unless it's, as you say, doggerel. It's common - indeed often intentional - for lines to be missing a beat, or to have the wrong feet in them. That doesn't mean it "must be wrong". [It would be more 'wrong' to stress the 'to' of 'into'! - and note that the following line follows the same anapaestic pattern by using 'upon', where again you can't stress the 'on'].

Here are some "wrong" lines:

1: But anon the great San Philip, she bethought herself and went,
Having that within her womb that had left her ill content;
And the rest they came aboard us, and they fought us hand to hand,
For a dozen times they came with their pikes and musqueteers,
And a dozen times we shook ’em off as a dog that shakes his ears
When he leaps from the water to the land.


2: The butterfly the ancient Grecians made
The soul’s fair emblem, and its only name –
But of the soul, escaped the slavish trade
Of mortal life! – For in this earthly frame
Ours is the reptile’s lot, much toil, much blame,
Manifold motions making little speed,
And to deform and kill the things whereon we feed.


3.Strong are the Roman roses,
Or the free flowers of the heath,
But every flower, like a flower of the sea,
Smelleth with the salt of death.


4. Methinks I am a prophet new inspired
And thus expiring do foretell of him:
His rash fierce blaze of riot cannot last,
For violent fires soon burn out themselves.


5. Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?


That's Tennyson, Coleridge, Chesterton, Shakespeare, and Blake.

I don't know what tolkien intended (I can find both versions online), but you can't judge that just because a line doesn't perfectly fit the metre that it must be 'wrong' somehow!

And if you listen to the sound on the video, this is exactly what she sings. Which suggests it was in fact the original.
It would do if the singer were authoritative; but she isn't.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

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Re: Galadriel's Lament for Lórien : 'Original' Sindarin vers

Post by Salmoneus »

Really sorry, marconatrix, I was distracted and in trying to reply to you I accidentally completely buggered up your post. I've restored the bits left intact, but most has been lost, and I don't think it's possible to restore it.

Damn 'edit' button...
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

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