Post your number system

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Jonlang
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Post your number system

Post by Jonlang »

Right, whether "number system" is the correct term or not, I'm not sure. I've been pondering how to handle numbers in my conlang. I quite like the idea of having masculine/feminine numbers for the numbers 1-10, with 0 and 11 onwards being gender-neutral, because the numbers 1-10 are probably used more often on a daily basis and none is none, so I see no need for gender for it. I also quite like the idea of it being a vigesimal system as opposed to decimal.

I saw this opportunity to see what others have done for their conlangs, so let us all see!
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Re: Post your number system

Post by Mâq Lar »

I made a pretty long post about this just the other day, so rather than spam I will just link to it.

But rather than have such a content free post, I'll mention that the number system is base-12, derived from counting on the 12 bones of the four fingers. However, it's a bijective system, which means that there is no zero; as an illustration, if we used bijective base-10, then twenty wouldn't be "20" - "two tens and zero ones"; it would be "1.10" - "one ten and ten ones".

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Re: Post your number system

Post by finlay »

I thought you were Janko in disguise for a minute there...

I don't usually put gender in my conlangs because I think it's one of the more obnoxious elements of natlangs, so I don't wanna comment on your particular quandary, but I've decided that most conlangs in my fledgling conworld will have base 20. My main conlang now has a mixture of base 20 and base 5, I suppose - numbers up to five have their own root, as do 10 and 20, but from five they're one+five, two+five, etc, and from ten they're one+ten, two+ten, and then sixteen up are one+five+ten etc.

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Jonlang »

I'm not really in a quandary. I haven't put pen-to-paper yet as far as the numbering system goes, it's all in my head, so I thought it would be interesting to see what others have done.
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Mâq Lar
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Re: Post your number system

Post by Mâq Lar »

finlay wrote:My main conlang now has a mixture of base 20 and base 5, I suppose - numbers up to five have their own root, as do 10 and 20, but from five they're one+five, two+five, etc, and from ten they're one+ten, two+ten, and then sixteen up are one+five+ten etc.
In that vein then, Moq numbers up to 12 are "cumulative" base - there's a new root word only when the number can't be made up from adding two of the smaller numbers. There are thus roots for 1, 2, 5, 8, 11; 3 is 2+1, 4 is 2+2, 6 is 5+1, 7 is 5+2...
The words for 5, 8, 11 aren't necessarily basic either - 5 is "hand" (a carry-over from a previous, now obsolete, simpler counting system). 8 and 11 will have similar origins too - when I've thought of them. Any suggestions? "Person" for 11 occurred to me (ten fingers plus one head), but not sure for 8.

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Jonlang »

Mâq Lar wrote:Moq numbers up to 12 are "cumulative" base - there's a new root word only when the number can't be made up from adding two of the smaller numbers. There are thus roots for 1, 2, 5, 8, 11; 3 is 2+1, 4 is 2+2, 6 is 5+1, 7 is 5+2...
Then why isn't 2 1+1?
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Re: Post your number system

Post by Mâq Lar »

dyolf wrote: Then why isn't 2 1+1?
:oops: Oops. I edited my post and accidentally lost a bit (the posting window is not so easy on the eyes - especially if I use the gloss code. Ugh). It was meant to say "there are basic root words for one and two, and then there's a new root word only when the number can't be made up from....". I guess I should also have said the combinations can only be a root word with either one or two added (which is why eight is not five and two and one).

One has its own root word for obvious reasons, and two, even though it could be made up from one plus one, has an independent root as it's such a commonly occurring basic number.

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Zaarin »

In my current main conlang, numbers function as nouns, so in order to say "ten men" you would say "a ten of men" or rather: ten man.GEN.Pl. This is also my first time using a full system that is not base-10 or base-5; it is base-12. So the "regular numbers" are twelve, twenty-four, thirty-six, twenty-four.DUAL, sixty, sixty-and-twelve, sixty-and-twenty-four, ninety-six, 108, 120, a gross. It's interesting to rewire my thinking to something other than decimal...Also, I chose base twelve when I discovered you could count finger bones with the thumb...and then read that's exactly how finger-counting works in base-12. ;) I actually have another conlang that's also base-12, but I haven't really fleshed it out yet. Most of the other conlangs for the project are decimal.

Next challenge: creating a vigesimal conlang.
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Re: Post your number system

Post by finlay »

I do my vigesimal numbers in Yaufulti like this:
0 - yeu (17/03/13)
1 - gau
2 - yiu
3 - feu
4 - neu
5 - tuu
6 - gaitu
7 - yiitu
8 - feitu
9 - neitu
10 - kiu
11 - gaiki
12 - yiiki
13 - feiki
14 - neiki
15 - tuiki
16 - gaituiki
17 - yiituiki
18 - feituiki
19 - neituiki
20 - pau
40 - pauyi
60 - paufe
80 - paune
100 - pautu
120 - paugaitu
140 - pauyiitu
160 - paufeitu
180 - pauneitu
200 - pauki
220 - paugaiki
240 - pauyiiki
260 - paufeiki
280 - pauneiki
300 - pautuiki
320 - paugaituiki
340 - pauyiituiki
360 - paufeituiki
380 - pauneituiki
400 - seu
8000 - liu
To add, you prefix the smaller number to the larger number and change the -u to -i, and you delete the -u from the larger number. To multiply, you suffix the smaller number to the larger one, keeping the -u on the larger one, and delete the -u from the smaller one. -i means "and" in the language; -u has no particular meaning but seems to disambiguate. An earlier draft of the language had only numbers up to 9 defined (the same as they are now), and 10 upwards were supposed to be just read "one zero" (gau yeu) and the like, but I decided that's boring.

My other conlang, Sentalian, which I've largely abandoned, has a much more complex system, with roots based on all sorts of human-based anatomy (my little joke, for instance, was that 20 was 'person', based on the number of digits, and 21 was 'man' - cos, you know, men have one extra "digit" lolol). Up to ten have their own roots, but after that there are some scattered roots, but 13-14 were oddly 5-and-8 and 5-and-9, and 18-19 were 10-and-8 and 10-and-9. There were also vestiges of base 5 in the names for 25, 30 and so on, which could also be five-fives. 100 could be twenty-fives or five-twenties. Also, the names for 40 and 60 were irregular "pair" and "triplet". Once I got to 200, it was "half-hundred", but using a different root for "half" than the word I'd already used for 10 (half a person). (of course, it could also be ten-twenties, which would use that root). I'll copy out just the roots just now. If you want to try and make bigger numbers, you should use "nè" to mean "and" in between, or just n- before another vowel, or leave it out before another n. And to multiply you just put one word before another.
0 - p'am (zero - loanword), vèè kà (nothing)
1 - vees
2 - byy
3 - niy
4 - xòt
5 - gaŋtè (from hand)
6 - donsa (from thumb, donsapan)
7 - vubl
8 - gwii (from middle, gwimmai)
9 - eepaan
10 (A) - dvogl (etym. half), byygaŋtè (two hands)
11 (B) - copcop
12 (C) - àfaal
13 (D) - gaŋtènègwii (five and eight), dvoglniy (ten and three)
14 (E) - gaŋtèneepaan (from five and nine), dvoglnèxòt (ten and four)
15 (F) - motl (from foot, motl)
16 (G) - jààklum (from big toe, jààl klumapan)
17 (H) - òòstla
18 (I) - dvoglnègwii (ten and eight), byygaŋtènègwii (two fives and eight)
19 (J) - dvoglneepaan (ten and nine), byygaŋtèneepaan (two fives and nine)
20 (10) - xòŋ (from person, xòŋa)
21 (11) - fààz (from man, fààzi), xòŋnèvees (twenty and one)
25 (15) - gaŋtègaŋtè (five fives), xòŋnègaŋtè
40 (20) - tan (from pair/couple, tanà)
41 (21) - xòŋnèfààz, tannèvees
60 (30) - cii
61 (31) - tannèfààz, ciinèvees
80 (40) - byytan
100 (50) - xòŋgaŋtè, gaŋtèxòŋ
120 (60) - donsaxòŋ
200 (A0) - k'uumuucga (half hundred), dvoglxòŋ
400 (100) - muucga
4000 (A00) - k'uuzààlis
8000 (1000) - zààlis
80000 (A000) - k'uujub
160000 (10000) - jub
3200000 (100000) - xòŋjub
64000000 (1000000) - muucgajub
1280000000 (10000000) - zààlisjub
25600000000 (100000000) - kiivii

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Tropylium »

A number system that's recursive without being exponential might be interesting to attempt. Usually number systems seem to switch to a particular multiplicative base. But e.g. something based on factorials might be doable as well; e.g. by employing sub-counting systems where every position allows incrementally more "digits". 719 = 6!-1, for example, would be expressed as "54321" = 5×120 + 4×24 + 3×6 + 2×2 + 1.
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Re: Post your number system

Post by Ryan of Tinellb »

As far as I can see, the problem with factorial number systems is the need to come up with more digits as the number gets longer. Of course, this might not be too much of a problem, even with only 10 digits, you can get up to almost 40 million.


Lulani uses balanced pentadecimal.
My number system

I'm as much a mathematician as I am a linguist. How many others out here are similar? In fact, I played with alternate bases long before ever conlanging.
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Re: Post your number system

Post by KathTheDragon »

Ryan of Tinellb wrote:I'm as much a mathematician as I am a linguist. How many others out here are similar?
I'm much the same. I've occasionally thought about how to translate mathematical terms and principles into conlangs.

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Salmoneus »

One of my concultures uses a mixed radix system with 1, 12, 60, 840, 2520, 27720, and 360360. [although in speech it uses decimal from 1-10, then derived terms for 11 and 12 (meaning '9 from' and '8 from'), then 12+1 through to 12+9, then 20, 20+1 through to 32, then 10*3+1 through to 40, 10*4+1 through to 50, 10*5+1 through to 60, then up to 60+12, 60+12+8, 60+12+20+12, 60+12+3*10+3 through to 60+12+3*10+9, then 100, then starting again to go as far as 119, then 120 and counting from there to go up to 143, then counting again from 144 up to 179, then in 60s up to 840. I think, at least, that's what seems to make sense... I might take out the 100 unit, though]

So 59382 = 211936. And 59382/5 is easily enough 41240+820+240+140+[7+1/5]+[6/5] = 42047+7/5, except it's not because clearly I've gone wrong somewhere damnit my head is too small for this and I'm out by 307. Bugger.

However, one advantage of this is that you never need fractions and almost everything works out as short decimals. So for instance 5/7 =0.82c (where c is the 12th digit). 3/13 = 0.23b25c. Etc.
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Re: Post your number system

Post by GreenBowTie »

Smaller numbers in Transemilian are pretty straightforward, and are mostly compounds. Eleven, twelve, thirteen, etc. are ten-one, ten-two, ten-three. Twenty, third, forty are two-ten, three-ten, four-ten. There are base numbers for 1 through 10; 100; 1,000; 10,000; and 100;000; all of which are combined the same way: 107 is 100+7; 4,669 is 4+1,000+6+100+6+10+9; and 854,989 is 8+100,000+5+10,000+4+1,000+9+100+8+10+9 (гитёчнамсцукмомфтеущаменьсулӭмгиклэеньтла = ги+тёчнам+сцу+кмом+фтеу+щам+ень+сулӭм+ги+клэ+еньтла). All of these are adjectives, and like other adjectives they follow the noun and take the same case suffixes as the noun (although not a plural suffix, which would be completely redundant). Thus, the dative of "the seven red apples" would be эімӭлканцокъӭл ғьдэкъӭл сталцокъӭл (эім-ӭлкан-цо-къӭл ғьдэ-къӭл стал-цо-къӭл; the-apple-pl-dat seven-dat red-pl-dat).

For numbers of 1,000,000 and higher, the situation is more complicated. These larger numbers are nouns rather than adjectives, and the nouns that they modify actually, grammatically, modify them (specifically it takes a partitive suffix, the same as the word "water" or "cake" would in the phrases "a liter of water" or "a slice of cake". Thus, the dative of "the 1,000,000 red apples" is эімілъёнкъӭл эімӭлканцоздінь сталцоздінь (the-million-dat the-apple-pl-part red-pl-part). Furthermore, multiples of numbers such as million and billion (e.g. 2,000,000; 8,000,000,000; 5,000,000,000,000) are indicated by the smaller numbers modifying the larger as adjectives, while increases such as 1,000,003 are placed in the comitative case. Thus, the dative of "the 3,000,006 red apples" is эімілъёнцокъӭл грімкъӭл эілъянкя эімӭлканцоздінь сталцоздінь (the-million-pl-dat three-dat the-six-comit the-apple-pl-part red-pl-part).

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Lme »

I am currently developing the Khuzgul language, here is my numerical system:

1-Иaэaи= Nagan
2-Қhaüa= Khaya
3-Эuяaұ= Gurai
4-Ґғяөӯ= Deröv
5-Тғяӯ= Terv
6-Лғғ= See
7-Ґөөь= Dööl
8-Иғaиғ= Neane
9-Üuэaи= Yugan
10-Тaяэuұ= Targui
20-Қhoяұи= Khorin
30-Эғлhaи= Geshan
40-Ґғлhaи= Deshan
50-Тғяӯaи= Tervan
60-Лғғиaи= Seenan
70-Ґөөьaи= Döölan
80-Иғaиғи= Neanen
90-Üuэaиғи= Yuganen
100- Тaяӯaи= Tarvan
1000- Тaяӯaиғ= Tarvane
10,000- Тaя-Тaяӯaиғ= Tar-Tarvane
100,000- Тaяӯaи-тaяӯaиғ= Tarvan-Tarvane
1,000,000- Иaэaи-Лaұқ= Nagan-Saik
10,000,000- Тaяэuұ-Лaұқ= Targui-Saik

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Re: Post your number system

Post by din »

Why the pseudo-Cyrillic orthography?

Cyrillic is used quite flexibly when transcribing different languages, but it's really odd to assign completely arbitrary sounds to the letters. For example, you use:
и for /n/ when it is normally a vowel pronounced /i/
э for /g/ when it is also normally a vowel, generally something like /ɛ/
ғ for something like /ɛ/, when it is in fact normally used to transcribe a consonant; It is a modified version of г, used for /g/, and it's usually somewhere in that region, in terms of point of articulation.

I mean, I suppose you're unfamiliar with Cyrillic and you assigned sounds to the different letters on the basis of their resemblance to the Latin script. That's not generally how it works, though.

You're free to do whatever you want, of course, but I'd recommend taking a look at the tables here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_script#Letters

I'm sure Cyrillic has enough letter forms available for you to transcribe your conlang in a more logical manner. After all, they managed to transcribe Northwest Caucasian languages, and they're well known for their ridiculous number of consonants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_language#Phonology
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Re: Post your number system

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Lme »

din wrote:Why the pseudo-Cyrillic orthography?

Cyrillic is used quite flexibly when transcribing different languages, but it's really odd to assign completely arbitrary sounds to the letters. For example, you use:
и for /n/ when it is normally a vowel pronounced /i/
э for /g/ when it is also normally a vowel, generally something like /ɛ/
ғ for something like /ɛ/, when it is in fact normally used to transcribe a consonant; It is a modified version of г, used for /g/, and it's usually somewhere in that region, in terms of point of articulation.

I mean, I suppose you're unfamiliar with Cyrillic and you assigned sounds to the different letters on the basis of their resemblance to the Latin script. That's not generally how it works, though.

You're free to do whatever you want, of course, but I'd recommend taking a look at the tables here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_script#Letters

I'm sure Cyrillic has enough letter forms available for you to transcribe your conlang in a more logical manner. After all, they managed to transcribe Northwest Caucasian languages, and they're well known for their ridiculous number of consonants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_language#Phonology
There is a logical explanation for this, I am not using the typical Cyrillic used for the Russian language, I am searching a flexible alphabet that can easily be used, I had another alphabet with various pronunciations for each letter before but i finished by changing it, I am searching something more familiar with the Mongolian Cyrillic that at the same time can be easily used for a European keyboard.

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Re: Post your number system

Post by din »

Lme wrote:
din wrote:Why the pseudo-Cyrillic orthography?

Cyrillic is used quite flexibly when transcribing different languages, but it's really odd to assign completely arbitrary sounds to the letters. For example, you use:
и for /n/ when it is normally a vowel pronounced /i/
э for /g/ when it is also normally a vowel, generally something like /ɛ/
ғ for something like /ɛ/, when it is in fact normally used to transcribe a consonant; It is a modified version of г, used for /g/, and it's usually somewhere in that region, in terms of point of articulation.

I mean, I suppose you're unfamiliar with Cyrillic and you assigned sounds to the different letters on the basis of their resemblance to the Latin script. That's not generally how it works, though.

You're free to do whatever you want, of course, but I'd recommend taking a look at the tables here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_script#Letters

I'm sure Cyrillic has enough letter forms available for you to transcribe your conlang in a more logical manner. After all, they managed to transcribe Northwest Caucasian languages, and they're well known for their ridiculous number of consonants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_language#Phonology
There is a logical explanation for this, I am not using the typical Cyrillic used for the Russian language, I am searching a flexible alphabet that can easily be used, I had another alphabet with various pronunciations for each letter before but i finished by changing it, I am searching something more familiar with the Mongolian Cyrillic that at the same time can be easily used for a European keyboard.
That's fine, but Mongolian Cyrillic still uses Russian Cyrillic as a basis. I mean, the vowels and consonants Mongolian shares with Russian are transcribed using the same letters. Other sounds are transcribed using letters that are pronounced somewhat similarly in Russian. Other letters not used in Russian also have some sort of connection to letters they were derived from, and are used for other languages spoken in the Russian sphere of influence.

As for ease of use on a European keyboard, well... I don't see how what you have is any more practical than a more run-of-the-mill use of the Cyrillic alphabet.

Anyway, do what you want, but don't expect anyone familiar with Cyrillic to have any clue whatsoever about how your conlang is pronounced.
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Re: Post your number system

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Eh..., I find your improper and nonstandard use of Cyrillic to be an eyesore, much like someone using "e" for /d/ and "b" for /o/.
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Re: Post your number system

Post by Lme »

احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:Eh..., I find your improper and nonstandard use of Cyrillic to be an eyesore, much like someone using "e" for /d/ and "b" for /o/.
You know what? Let's just close this discussion, now I need to change my alphabet again.

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Re: Post your number system

Post by Nortaneous »

1-Иaэaи= Iaèai
2-Қhaüa= Qha_a
3-Эuяaұ= È_jaaʊ
4-Ґғяөӯ= Gğjaöū
5-Тғяӯ= Tğjaū
6-Лғғ= Lğğ
7-Ґөөь= Göö'
8-Иғaиғ= Iğaiğ
9-Üuэaи= __èai
10-Тaяэuұ= Tajaè_u
20-Қhoяұи= Qhojaui
30-Эғлhaи= Èğlhai
40-Ґғлhaи= Gğlhai
50-Тғяӯaи= Tğjaūai
60-Лғғиaи= Lğğiai
70-Ґөөьaи= Göö'ai
80-Иғaиғи= Iğaiği
90-Üuэaиғи= __èaiği
100- Тaяӯaи= Tajaūai
1000- Тaяӯaиғ= Tajaūaiğ
10,000- Тaя-Тaяӯaиғ= Taja-Tajaūaiğ
100,000- Тaяӯaи-тaяӯaиғ= Tajaūai-tajaūaiğ
1,000,000- Иaэaи-Лaұқ= Iaèai-Lauq
10,000,000- Тaяэuұ-Лaұқ= Tajaè_u-Lauq
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Nortaneous
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Re: Post your number system

Post by Nortaneous »

احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:Eh..., I find your improper and nonstandard use of Cyrillic to be an eyesore, much like someone using "e" for /d/ and "b" for /o/.
using <q> for a vowel, on the other hand, is proper and good
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

Travis B.
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Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Post your number system

Post by Travis B. »

Nortaneous wrote:
احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:Eh..., I find your improper and nonstandard use of Cyrillic to be an eyesore, much like someone using "e" for /d/ and "b" for /o/.
using <q> for a vowel, on the other hand, is proper and good
As are tone letters, as Nortaneous would say.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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احمکي ارش-ھجن
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Re: Post your number system

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Nortaneous wrote:
احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:Eh..., I find your improper and nonstandard use of Cyrillic to be an eyesore, much like someone using "e" for /d/ and "b" for /o/.
using <q> for a vowel, on the other hand, is proper and good
Who uses that like a vowel and what value?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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