Was 80% convinced that the link was going to lead to this. (apologies for terrible quality, I can't find a clip with better quality)hwhatting wrote:This guy belives that, too.CatDoom wrote:As I recall, these people acknowledged that sex was important to conception, but the really crucial part was getting the sea involved.
Concultures' attitude towards sex
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alynnidalar
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Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.
Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
Not my Generation. But fittingly weird.alynnidalar wrote:Was 80% convinced that the link was going to lead to this. (apologies for terrible quality, I can't find a clip with better quality)
Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
Ok, I promised to write a bit about Sajiwa. It has grown to more than a bit, which is why it took a while. Here's the take.
Sajiwa is a current-day country and small island of the coast of Jamaica. It's population of about 75,000 is descendant from African slaves, and English and Spanish colonists, with propably still some traces of Taino, which were the original inhabitats.
History
Sajiwan has had a turbulent history (which I'll publish one day when I've finished it), but what's important for now is that after the Port Royal earthquake of 1692, Gobeton (Sajiwa's capital) took over as the regional gambling, boozing and brothel epicenter. Another important aspect is that the church has never had too much influence over the lives of the average Sajiwan, perhaps as a result of the threat the chruch posed to the lucrative and economicaly important gambling and sex industry, and the subsequent selection by the island's governors of vicars that were pragmatic rather than zealous.
Working in the sex industry gave slaves a fair amount of freedom. Since being a female slave meant that rape by your owner was common anyway, having control over that and earning money* was a good prospect. Brothel owners, often female ex-slaves that had bought themselves free, would hire young female slaves from slave owners, sometimes for a one-time fee for a fixed period, sometimes for a monthly or annual sum, and inlist them in their brothels. Typically these slaves would earn enough money to buy themselves free after five to ten years (officially via their employer, as legally they couldn't earn money), and either continue working in the industry or settle with their children (this wasn't the age of birth control) in the country. This meant that a large number of free female slaves were former prostitutes and had children out of wedlock.
*Technically, slaves couldn't earn money, but slaves working in the sex industry had a de facto salary that exceeded that of most free labourers.
Aside from the pay, women in the sex industry also got an education for calculus and book-keeping (for keeping track of customers and pay), and for reading and writing - one of the paid services provided to the customers was reading and writing letters, as the pirates and other sailors often couldn't read or write, or only marginally so. This made the women better educated than most male slaves, and often better than most of the British and Spanish population. They also taught their children - some brothels even had classes for their employees kids.
Brothels were almost exclusively run by women, but they employed men as well, mostly for security. It was a common secret that these men were selected for being gay, as to prevent them from assaulting the female employees. For gay men, working in a brothel was the only way to lead a life without pretending. This led to fully accepting homosexuality by the female employees and their children, which might explain why homophobia never caught on Sajiwa, as opposed to e.g. Jamaica.
Since a large part of the female popultion worked in the sex industry, there was a surplus of men. These too, made use of the brothel's services. Male slaves, being unable to pay with money, might either get lucky once in a while (and some of them might have a girlfriend or even wife in the industry), or would pay by other means, e.g. provide a service for a prostitute's or brothel owner's side business (often trade of some sort).
As a result of the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, by 1840 all slaves were free. The gambling and sex industry remained strong however, this time populated by free women and men. By that time, Sajiwa's population had grown substantially, both by natural means and the settlement of adventure seekers, retired pirates and other sailors, and a large group of Cuban runaway slaves that settled in the North of the island. Perhaps except for the latter, all of these eventually shared the "indigenous" Sajiwan population's (i.e. those whose ancestors had been living on Sajiwa for generations) casual attitude towards sex. Multiple sexual partners (either sequential or at the same time), for both men and women were nothing to get worked up about, as was visiting the brothels. It was quite common for fathers to send their sons to the brothels as a 16th birthday present.
Current day
Today the Sajiwan economy runs largely on tourism, and the importance of the brothels has diminished. They're still alive and well however, even though a substantially smaller percentage of he population is dependent on them for a living. Prostitution is fully legal by Sajiwan law, though there are restrictions for foreign workers, to oppose exploitation.
The legal age of consent is 16, but with a maximum age difference of two years until the legal age of majority, which is 18. For working in the sex industry, the minimum age is 21. Sex under the age of 16 is discouraged, and in general sex under the age of 18 (except for that old tradition of sending a son to the brothels at 16, though that tradition is illegal under the law and more and more frowned upon socially). Once you're 18 though, you are assumed to have sex, and if you're not in a relationship, with multiple partners (sequential or otherwise). One-night stands are not uncommon, but typically young people have multiple sequential partners they have sex with more than once (possibly with one-night stands in between).
Sex out of wedlock is supposed to be done safe, i.e. using protection against STDs and using birth control. This of course doesn't mean that no-one gets pregnant. In Gobeton there are several health clinics that can administer emergency contraceptives and perform abortions. Abortions are legal and the general population's attitude towards them are neutral, both for unmarried and married women. Depending on the social circumstances, an unplanned pregnant woman may or may not opt for abortion. Having a child out of wedlock is seen as a valid choice, and doesn't diminish chances of finding a partner or marrying (this goes for both men and women).
One married, you're supposed to have sex with your spouse, and no-one else, unless both partners agree to have an open marriage (which is uncommon), or engage in a threesome. Adultry is frowned upon, even though it is fairly common to have affairs, for both men and women. It is a legal reason for divorce. In practice though, it seldomly results in one.
Homosexuality is fully accepted, as well as gender non-conformity. Sajiwa is the only indenpendent Caribbean country that has opened marriage to same-sex couples (since 1st January 2012). It also has laws that protect against discrimination based on sexual preference or gender identity.
JAL
Sajiwa is a current-day country and small island of the coast of Jamaica. It's population of about 75,000 is descendant from African slaves, and English and Spanish colonists, with propably still some traces of Taino, which were the original inhabitats.
History
Sajiwan has had a turbulent history (which I'll publish one day when I've finished it), but what's important for now is that after the Port Royal earthquake of 1692, Gobeton (Sajiwa's capital) took over as the regional gambling, boozing and brothel epicenter. Another important aspect is that the church has never had too much influence over the lives of the average Sajiwan, perhaps as a result of the threat the chruch posed to the lucrative and economicaly important gambling and sex industry, and the subsequent selection by the island's governors of vicars that were pragmatic rather than zealous.
Working in the sex industry gave slaves a fair amount of freedom. Since being a female slave meant that rape by your owner was common anyway, having control over that and earning money* was a good prospect. Brothel owners, often female ex-slaves that had bought themselves free, would hire young female slaves from slave owners, sometimes for a one-time fee for a fixed period, sometimes for a monthly or annual sum, and inlist them in their brothels. Typically these slaves would earn enough money to buy themselves free after five to ten years (officially via their employer, as legally they couldn't earn money), and either continue working in the industry or settle with their children (this wasn't the age of birth control) in the country. This meant that a large number of free female slaves were former prostitutes and had children out of wedlock.
*Technically, slaves couldn't earn money, but slaves working in the sex industry had a de facto salary that exceeded that of most free labourers.
Aside from the pay, women in the sex industry also got an education for calculus and book-keeping (for keeping track of customers and pay), and for reading and writing - one of the paid services provided to the customers was reading and writing letters, as the pirates and other sailors often couldn't read or write, or only marginally so. This made the women better educated than most male slaves, and often better than most of the British and Spanish population. They also taught their children - some brothels even had classes for their employees kids.
Brothels were almost exclusively run by women, but they employed men as well, mostly for security. It was a common secret that these men were selected for being gay, as to prevent them from assaulting the female employees. For gay men, working in a brothel was the only way to lead a life without pretending. This led to fully accepting homosexuality by the female employees and their children, which might explain why homophobia never caught on Sajiwa, as opposed to e.g. Jamaica.
Since a large part of the female popultion worked in the sex industry, there was a surplus of men. These too, made use of the brothel's services. Male slaves, being unable to pay with money, might either get lucky once in a while (and some of them might have a girlfriend or even wife in the industry), or would pay by other means, e.g. provide a service for a prostitute's or brothel owner's side business (often trade of some sort).
As a result of the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, by 1840 all slaves were free. The gambling and sex industry remained strong however, this time populated by free women and men. By that time, Sajiwa's population had grown substantially, both by natural means and the settlement of adventure seekers, retired pirates and other sailors, and a large group of Cuban runaway slaves that settled in the North of the island. Perhaps except for the latter, all of these eventually shared the "indigenous" Sajiwan population's (i.e. those whose ancestors had been living on Sajiwa for generations) casual attitude towards sex. Multiple sexual partners (either sequential or at the same time), for both men and women were nothing to get worked up about, as was visiting the brothels. It was quite common for fathers to send their sons to the brothels as a 16th birthday present.
Current day
Today the Sajiwan economy runs largely on tourism, and the importance of the brothels has diminished. They're still alive and well however, even though a substantially smaller percentage of he population is dependent on them for a living. Prostitution is fully legal by Sajiwan law, though there are restrictions for foreign workers, to oppose exploitation.
The legal age of consent is 16, but with a maximum age difference of two years until the legal age of majority, which is 18. For working in the sex industry, the minimum age is 21. Sex under the age of 16 is discouraged, and in general sex under the age of 18 (except for that old tradition of sending a son to the brothels at 16, though that tradition is illegal under the law and more and more frowned upon socially). Once you're 18 though, you are assumed to have sex, and if you're not in a relationship, with multiple partners (sequential or otherwise). One-night stands are not uncommon, but typically young people have multiple sequential partners they have sex with more than once (possibly with one-night stands in between).
Sex out of wedlock is supposed to be done safe, i.e. using protection against STDs and using birth control. This of course doesn't mean that no-one gets pregnant. In Gobeton there are several health clinics that can administer emergency contraceptives and perform abortions. Abortions are legal and the general population's attitude towards them are neutral, both for unmarried and married women. Depending on the social circumstances, an unplanned pregnant woman may or may not opt for abortion. Having a child out of wedlock is seen as a valid choice, and doesn't diminish chances of finding a partner or marrying (this goes for both men and women).
One married, you're supposed to have sex with your spouse, and no-one else, unless both partners agree to have an open marriage (which is uncommon), or engage in a threesome. Adultry is frowned upon, even though it is fairly common to have affairs, for both men and women. It is a legal reason for divorce. In practice though, it seldomly results in one.
Homosexuality is fully accepted, as well as gender non-conformity. Sajiwa is the only indenpendent Caribbean country that has opened marriage to same-sex couples (since 1st January 2012). It also has laws that protect against discrimination based on sexual preference or gender identity.
JAL
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Foolster41
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Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
Here's info on Saltha:
Royal Era vs. Republic Era
During the royal era there was a legally enforced separation of six classes, though there was some room to move between the classes. The classes were:
Gildarekakelnai ("Ruling Capstone", royal family)
Gilnai ("the above", nobles)
Silasnai ("the pure", the priestly class) & Salinai ("the skiled", craftsman)
Udanai ("The lower many", the regular people)
Thatnai ("The locked", class of slaves and indentured servants to the state).
Both men and women were expected to be chaste until marriage, though there was a higher expectation for women than men. For the most part because of the social stigma sex before marriage (besides visiting prostitutes) is very uncommon. Most women and men are virgins when they are married. Generally the laws between the two eras are mostly unchanged, only aspects of the laws involving the establishment of the classes (except for the Slaves (kept only as indentured servants to the state, paying fines) and Priest classes).
Adultery
Defined as Sex of any kind involving two or more people, and one or both being married but not to each other is illegal. The penalty was a large fine, and possibly a flogging. This flogging was more severe for those in the lower classes having sex with married people in the upper classes.
Generally for women this usually meant swift divorce, and she could lose whatever class status she had and become an Udanai. Men were usually more severely punished, but were less likely to be divorced or lose status.
Adults who are not married
There was no law against two people who were both adults (at least 20) and not married having sex in private, as long as they were of a close class (that is, a separation of one degree), though even within this separation though could be trouble, and there was a sort of stricter invisible line between craftsman and nobles.
Rape and sexual assault
Rape is a capital crime. sexual assault carries heavy penalties of a severe flogging and high fines, and could result in being stripped of class. During the royal period, assaulting those of a higher class carried a higher penalty. People of all classes, even slaves are protected against rape and sexual assault.
Pedophilia
Because of the view on innocence of children, it is a very serious crime to even discuss sex in any graphic way in front of children, and while public displays of nude figures was very common, graphical depictions of sex in public was not. An adult (20 or older) having sex with a minor (under the age of 14) would be automatically considered rape, and would face the death penalty. (Revised, increased to 14, having another sot of class between 10-14 didn't make much sense.)
Semi-adults
For those who were between the ages of 15-20 are technically adults, or semi-adults ("Uula", masc. or "Uuli" fem., "Just under"), but are still considered under the care of their parents. While they can give consenting sex, as long as the other person is an unmarried person who is under 20 (or there is less than 2 years difference in age). However, if the child doesn't have consent of their parent, they may be brought by them to a court and punished (a person over 10 no longer is subject to corporal punishment from their parents).
Homosexuality
Legally there is no law against homosexuality, though it is not recognized as a marriage, people can be openly gay. Generally though being a "bottom" in a relationship is looked down on, more than being in a homosexual relationship itself.
Prostitution
It is legal, but very restricted. There can only be a maximum number of prostitutes at a time per city based on the city's population. They are all considered of the priest class, in worship of the divine Gikar. There are both male and female prostitutes, though more are female. A person as young as 15 may become a temple prostitute, if they wish it and their parents give consent, though they may not have clients older than 19 until they come of age.
(I hope this makes sense)
Edit: Revised some info.
Royal Era vs. Republic Era
During the royal era there was a legally enforced separation of six classes, though there was some room to move between the classes. The classes were:
Gildarekakelnai ("Ruling Capstone", royal family)
Gilnai ("the above", nobles)
Silasnai ("the pure", the priestly class) & Salinai ("the skiled", craftsman)
Udanai ("The lower many", the regular people)
Thatnai ("The locked", class of slaves and indentured servants to the state).
Both men and women were expected to be chaste until marriage, though there was a higher expectation for women than men. For the most part because of the social stigma sex before marriage (besides visiting prostitutes) is very uncommon. Most women and men are virgins when they are married. Generally the laws between the two eras are mostly unchanged, only aspects of the laws involving the establishment of the classes (except for the Slaves (kept only as indentured servants to the state, paying fines) and Priest classes).
Adultery
Defined as Sex of any kind involving two or more people, and one or both being married but not to each other is illegal. The penalty was a large fine, and possibly a flogging. This flogging was more severe for those in the lower classes having sex with married people in the upper classes.
Generally for women this usually meant swift divorce, and she could lose whatever class status she had and become an Udanai. Men were usually more severely punished, but were less likely to be divorced or lose status.
Adults who are not married
There was no law against two people who were both adults (at least 20) and not married having sex in private, as long as they were of a close class (that is, a separation of one degree), though even within this separation though could be trouble, and there was a sort of stricter invisible line between craftsman and nobles.
Rape and sexual assault
Rape is a capital crime. sexual assault carries heavy penalties of a severe flogging and high fines, and could result in being stripped of class. During the royal period, assaulting those of a higher class carried a higher penalty. People of all classes, even slaves are protected against rape and sexual assault.
Pedophilia
Because of the view on innocence of children, it is a very serious crime to even discuss sex in any graphic way in front of children, and while public displays of nude figures was very common, graphical depictions of sex in public was not. An adult (20 or older) having sex with a minor (under the age of 14) would be automatically considered rape, and would face the death penalty. (Revised, increased to 14, having another sot of class between 10-14 didn't make much sense.)
Semi-adults
For those who were between the ages of 15-20 are technically adults, or semi-adults ("Uula", masc. or "Uuli" fem., "Just under"), but are still considered under the care of their parents. While they can give consenting sex, as long as the other person is an unmarried person who is under 20 (or there is less than 2 years difference in age). However, if the child doesn't have consent of their parent, they may be brought by them to a court and punished (a person over 10 no longer is subject to corporal punishment from their parents).
Homosexuality
Legally there is no law against homosexuality, though it is not recognized as a marriage, people can be openly gay. Generally though being a "bottom" in a relationship is looked down on, more than being in a homosexual relationship itself.
Prostitution
It is legal, but very restricted. There can only be a maximum number of prostitutes at a time per city based on the city's population. They are all considered of the priest class, in worship of the divine Gikar. There are both male and female prostitutes, though more are female. A person as young as 15 may become a temple prostitute, if they wish it and their parents give consent, though they may not have clients older than 19 until they come of age.
(I hope this makes sense)
Edit: Revised some info.
Last edited by Foolster41 on Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
So masturbation is illegal?Foolster41 wrote:Adultery Defined as Sex of any kind involving one or more people, and one or both being married but not to each other is illegal.
But >= 10 is ok?PedophiliaAn adult having sex with a minor (under the age of 10) would be automaticly considered rape, and would face the death penalty.
But what about 10-15?Semi-adultsFor those who were between the ages of 15-20 are technically adults
JAL
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Foolster41
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Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
jal wrote: So masturbation is illegal?[/quote[
Oops. Meant "two or more"
But >= 10 is ok?
Not sure. To them 10 is the first big step towards being an adult, when a major coming of age ceremony takes place, and so why I had it at 10, and I wasn't thinking about the gap.But what about 10-15?
It feels weird to have 10-14 the same as under 10, because of this change, but also feels weird to have any sort of giving consent like a 15-19 year old because it's still pretty young.
Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
What's the technological development and the life expectancy like? In most human pre-modern cultures, marriable age starts at puberty, 14, 15 years.
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Foolster41
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Re: Concultures' attitude towards sex
Their medievil tech level, with a life expetancy of about the same (which, from what I've read, while still being shorter than modern times because of things like disease, isn't quite so short as people make it out to be,)
I'm thinking that it would make sense to have a separate sort of "step-up" at 15, and thus when age of consent/marriage would be.
(Edit: changed some things in my original post, no distinction between 1-9 and 10-14 now. I was trying to come up with different levels of adulthood, but nothing made much sense to me, and I think this fits well with how they'd do it.)
I'm thinking that it would make sense to have a separate sort of "step-up" at 15, and thus when age of consent/marriage would be.
(Edit: changed some things in my original post, no distinction between 1-9 and 10-14 now. I was trying to come up with different levels of adulthood, but nothing made much sense to me, and I think this fits well with how they'd do it.)