tube bo, kije bo & ALL GRAMMAR OF DAMA DIWAN

[Kaenif]

lm
[lɐu˩ mɪŋ˩]
remain name
I am going to leave a reply here so that I can come back to this thread later for more quality entertainment.

[jal]

I am going to leave a reply here so that I can come back to this thread later for more quality entertainment.

I think you can actually subscribe to a thread without posting, but hey, whatever :). I think most of the entertainment is over now, the OP has yet to return.


JAL

[Dama Diwan]

Nothing like a threat. Scientific terminology cannot do without Greek, and the international scientific terminology is not going to change even if English stops to be the de facto international language. You can also consider the Greek loanwords in most of the world's languages on everyday level. On the other hand, Greek language (and population) within Greece is rapidly diminishing. I don't know why you think of threats and what else you call it. It is only the facts.

[Vijay]

On the other hand, Greek language (and population) within Greece is rapidly diminishing.

How?

[Dama Diwan]

very short question requiring a very long answer.

[Vijay]

Sorry, I just noticed that I could offer an answer to this question:

What's the word for that, where form and semantics are related like that?

Iconicity?

[Frislander]

There's no problem with doing a minimal-lang in itself, it's just it would be nice to see things like a laid-out lhonolovy and approaching the grammar in an ordered fashion, instead of just throwing out some random stuff about alignment and voice. Like what is J representing, for instance?

[Abi]

Greek language is going to be extinct and that can be very soon, but the Greek vocabulary will remain internationally.

is that a threat?

Is it really a threat if its a fact? After the Germans kick Greece out of the EU, Greek will be demoted from indo-european to isolate. After a language is declared an isolate its all a downward spiral from there.

[Vijay]

After the Germans kick Greece out of the EU, Greek will be demoted from indo-european to isolate. After a language is declared an isolate its all a downward spiral from there.

Lolwut?

[ObsequiousNewt]

Greek language is going to be extinct and that can be very soon, but the Greek vocabulary will remain internationally.

is that a threat?

Is it really a threat if its a fact? After the Germans kick Greece out of the EU, Greek will be demoted from indo-european to isolate. After a language is declared an isolate its all a downward spiral from there.

allow me to explain why that's not how anything works at all, ever

[Dama Diwan]

There's no problem with doing a minimal-lang in itself, it's just it would be nice to see things like a laid-out lhonolovy and approaching the grammar in an ordered fashion, instead of just throwing out some random stuff about alignment and voice. Like what is J representing, for instance?

Dear Karero, I did not want to bother you with details about Dama. I wanted to explain the matter about voice, because somebody (known in linguistic circles) challenged me about logic in language. Dama grammar is so simple that there is no much to explain. When you understand that function about voice and alignment, you know all the grammar of Dama.
Dama was created by a mere challenge. I saw that everybody's dislikes about my own conlang contributed into letting a language be born out of itself as Dama was, so I let the simple mathematical pattern and the random function to form the language. When I saw it formed I could not accept it might function as a language or even be memorized. I forcefully repelled that idea, and that objection lead me to memorize the whole of it within 5 days.
About grammar, the biggest problem was that there was no way to show participles. It is the ambiguity found in "understanding women"; is is "women who understand", or is it "to understand women"? Then the solution was found: -e is participle, and -en is verb followed by its object. If we have SVO with all these present, -e can work as a verb too: "jese kimo rate jato" means "the pottery that the laughing donkey broke", but also: the laughing donkey broke something which is pottery, so it is equal to "the laughing donkey breaks pottery". But because the verb's subject is most of the time omitted, the -en is necessary. This is the only language I know with this function: the direct object is marked on the object before the verb, or on the verb before the object.
All the letters are ideally pronounced as in the IPA, so J is /j/, but there is a wide choice of allophones, so J can be a voiced or unvoiced palatal fricative.
I will gladly answer any other question of yours, preferably in https://www.facebook.com/groups/omado.sosti.matiko/ (I m rarely in zompist board).

[Frislander]

For those who are interested, here is the phoneme inventory from what I can see.

Code: Select all

b  t     k
   s
m  n
   r  j  w

Code: Select all

i       u
 (e) (o)
    a

(e and o don't seem all that common compared to a, i and u, and I'm not sure they're phonemes)

I think the vowels are a little bit boring (Why don't you try some of the weirder ones and see how they make you feel?), I actually quite like the consonant inventory, both in its simplicity and in its quite pleasing asymmetry (b instead of p is one asymmetry I actually quite like, perhaps because of Arapahoe)

[Burke]

Having grown up in a Greek family, I find the commentary on our language and its oblivion quite entertaining. I wonder how much longer I have left until the abyss consumes me.

[Dama Diwan]

For those who are interested, here is the phoneme inventory from what I can see.
I think the vowels are a little bit boring (Why don't you try some of the weirder ones and see how they make you feel?), I actually quite like the consonant inventory, both in its simplicity and in its quite pleasing asymmetry (b instead of p is one asymmetry I actually quite like, perhaps because of Arapahoe)

In fact the vowel phonemes are only 3, they can have at least another 2 allophones, but only as long as they may not be confused to each other. It is not my right to alter the language, because I am only promoting it. The real creator is the sky. If it had more phonemes it would not be easy as an Int Aux Lang, because there are even people who confuse I-E, O-U, including Greeks, especially in the north of the country. Consonants can have really many allophones. So many that I did not attempt to list, only I advise to avoid some things.

What looks like an asymmetry about b, is not exactly so. Ideally we have 3 positions and 3 manners of articulation: b=voiced, k=unvoiced, and t=lightly aspirated. It is even possible to write ts instead of t, but I keep writing it the simplest way, because simplicity combined with functionality is the main principle for it to be used as an IntAuxLang. Also, to help the http://lingojam.com/Damadiwan http://lingojam.com/tolearnDamaDiwanwords glossing tools work.

Note also that it is advisable, although not necessary, to use a "laryngeal" sound (especially glottal stop or h) before "naked" vowels, and to pronounce the final nasal as velar, so we have three distinct nasals, although the velar nasal can be simply dental for those who cannot pronounce the velar nasal (e.g. Greeks).

A monosyllabic word of the CV type can be pronounced with a final -/x/ for those who have it easy (e.g. Germans, Greeks...).

Informal Dama permits consonants not followed by a vowel, but such a consonant is taken to be the same as with -o/-u, e.g. NAK means NAKO (=search).

In short, phonology is not as boring as it appears, but vowels must be few, as they are in most languages of the world. Informal Dama permits all combinations in diphthongs, and also expressive lengthening.

[2+3 clusivity]

This is all begining to remind me of that one Japanese conlang promoter in 2013 or was it 2014.

... The real creator is the sky. If it had more phonemes it would not be easy as an Int Aux Lang, because there are even people who confuse I-E, O-U, including Greeks, especially in the north of the country.

***

A monosyllabic word of the CV type can be pronounced with a final -/x/ for those who have it easy (e.g. Germans, Greeks...).

So ... where to start ... are you telling us the Sky is prejudiced against easily confused Greeks -- especially the nothern ones? Is this nationally biased font of wisdom perhaps Macedonian or Albanian?

[Matrix]

So ... where to start ... are you telling us the Sky is prejudiced against easily confused Greeks -- especially the nothern ones? Is this nationally biased font of wisdom perhaps Macedonian or Albanian?

They've also said:

Greek language is going to be extinct and that can be very soon,

So yeah, I think there's some definite anti-Greek prejudice going on here.

[Vijay]

Weird. I thought it was prejudice in the opposite direction because it reminded me of times when people complained about their own language dying (even when it clearly wasn't - there are native speakers of German arguing over whether German is dying, for example). Maybe I just haven't read enough of the relevant posts. EDIT: Or I haven't read these carefully enough.

[mèþru]

With a little digging, I found their academia.edu profile (they posted this language as a theory on the site): http://crete.academia.edu/GiannhsKenanidhs.

[Vijay]

Which you can also find via this post.

EDIT: I guess I see your point, though.

[Dama Diwan]

a numa!
(A NUMA means hello, literally "you well", like Chinese 你好, and Greek γειά-σου, literally "health of you")
I find it admirable that this post has received 1951 views, and it has received so many replies referring to every object of knowledge EXCEPT what the post is about. So let me explain that the post aims to clarify mainly one thing: how Dama distinguishes between passive voice and active voice. As you have seen, the distinction is based on nouns (-O) which are inherently passive and verbs (-E) which are inherently active.
Also, the same distinction in essence is marked by the final -n between an object and its verb, so it is always clear in practice which is the passive and which is the active.
And so, although there is no special ending for passive verbs, the distinction is very clear, and it is the most essential thing for understanding the meaning of Dama verbs: when you imagine the meaning of an active verb, you must also contrast it to the corresponding passive meaning.
While explaining this distinction, 2/3 of the whole Dama grammar have already been expounded. So, in this opportunity, I explained the remaining 1/3 which is the formation and use of adverbs (-A) and genitive case (-AN). And the word order which keeps everything together.
In this way I presented the whole function of the Dama Diwan language. With this opportunity, I say once more that all functions are available in Dama, such as number, gender, tense, mood, possession, inalienable possession, and so on, but note they are AVAILABLE, not obligatory. It is not even obligatory to state the subject, the object, or any other term, as long as you understand that your message gets through. In fact, FREEDOM is the most essential virtue of Dama, in addition to other virtues: succinctness, simplicity, small size for easy learning but at the same time great functionality to make it suitable as an Int Aux Language.
About its history, theory, and vocabulary, we can discuss much, but in another post, not this one, which is just about the main grammatical distinction and the whole grammar of Dama Diwan.

[Frislander]

Here we go again.

[jal]

Dama, I would suggest before trying to explain Dama Diwan to us, you get a proper command of English and linguistic terminology. Your post looks like gibberish, it is hard to tell what you mean.

So let me explain that the post aims to clarify mainly one thing: how Dama distinguishes between passive voice and active voice. As you have seen, the distinction is based on nouns (-O) which are inherently passive and verbs (-E) which are inherently active.
Also, the same distinction in essence is marked by the final -n between an object and its verb, so it is always clear in practice which is the passive and which is the active.
And so, although there is no special ending for passive verbs, the distinction is very clear, and it is the most essential thing for understanding the meaning of Dama verbs: when you imagine the meaning of an active verb, you must also contrast it to the corresponding passive meaning.

The above is unintelligible. "Nouns which are (...) passive and verbs which are (...) active"??? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Why don't you just translate and gloss a couple of sentences to show us what you mean? Please translate:

"the man eats the apple"
"the man eats"
"the apple is eaten"
"the apple is eaten by the man"

Translate, and gloss.


JAL

[Dama Diwan]

I thought that my English, although not terribly rich, is at least clear.
to do your examples, I will use simply NUTO =a fruit and TO =a person, because to make a specific word for apple you have to give a short description in the beginning of a text, e.g. TURO JIRO NUTO, and then refer to it simply as NUTO. When you say "the man", I suppose you mean a person. If it is specifically a man, we should use MAWO.
Now, with NUTO taken as apple and TO =a person, and BAMO=food / eaten, BAME(N)= the verb "eats", we have

"the man eats the apple" TO BAMEN NUTO or NUTON TO BAME (the 2 easiest ways to say it). If you must specify a definite article (THE apple), say TO BAMEN I NUTO (the person eats that apple).

"the man eats" TO BAME. (while BAME TO =the person who eats).

"the apple is eaten" NUTON BAME. here NUTON can be taken as subject of passive verb, or object of active verb, the meaning is the same. It is also possible to say NUTO AN BAMO "the apple becomes eaten" or "the apple becomes food (of somebody), but this latter is usually not preferred, except sometimes to create a specific style: "every time a wolf meets a sheep, WATO BAME, MAJO AN BAMO =the wolf eats, the sheep becomes food (i.e. is eaten)".

"the apple is eaten by the man" NUTON TO BAME is the commonest way (see previous). There are many other ways which are not preferred because they diverge from the practical simplicity which should be the main style of Dama Diwan. E.g. NUTO AN BAMO, TO BE (the apple is eaten, a person is the doer). Or, NUTO AN BAMO, TO BA =the apple is eaten, by a person's action. To say NUTON BAME TO "the apple eating (is) the person" is also a simple way, but this is preferred if the person is to be emphasized as a predicate. If you pronounce BAME-TO as one word, the meaning is "the person who eats the apple", but if you pronounce separately (NUTON BAME, TO) then it means "the one who eats the apple, is a human being".

the main distinction in all this is between BAMO the eaten thing, and BAME the eater.
A -N is placed between the object and the verb, but in this case you can also name it subject of a passive verb.
There is no marker of subject of active verbs. In fact there is a marker -T for active verb's subject, but that is only in theory, it has never been used, so as to keep the phonotactics which can not force to pronounce a consonant (unless -n preferably velar) without a following vowel.
Actually the syntax is very simple, it is only the application of 3 suffixes and an optional -N, but you are not the first person who seems to have a difficulty with it, because it is different to English, and it is not found in any natural language. No natural language marks like NUTON BAME = BAMEN NUTO, both meaning "eats the apple" or "the apple is eaten". And even no constructed language except Dama Diwan has ever had this facility. So yes, if you try to figure it through another language, and especially through English, you will find it difficult, although it is as simple as this: NUTON BAME = BAMEN NUTO.

[Ser]

I thought that my English, although not terribly rich, is at least clear.

It is really not clear.

if you try to figure it through another language, and especially through English, you will find it difficult

No, it's not a problem of the English language.

The thing is, the way you present things deviates from the conventions of linguistics enormously, in terminology and format, which makes it confusing. I can tell you most people are not going to bother to try to understand it.

In fact, to do you a favour, I carefully read all of your three posts trying to understand what the hell you're talking about. I succeeded, but you could've done it in a much clearer way. Go read linguistics books (and papers once you can) on morphology, syntax, semantics. You could begin with textbooks and then continue on works published on particular languages. It's the best way.

I mean, right now you don't even know what a gloss is. https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources ... -rules.php Here's what glosses of your examples would look like:

1. to bamen nuto
to bam-e-n nuto
person eat-ACT-TRANS fruit
'The person is eating a piece of fruit.'
(Note: a verb is marked as transitive when the object follows it.)

2. nuton to bame
nuto-n to bam-e
fruit-ACC person eat-ACT
'The person is eating a piece of fruit.' ~ 'The piece of fruit is being eaten by the person.'

3. to bame
to bam-e
person eat-ACT
'The person is eating.'

4. nuton bame
nuto-n bam-e
fruit-ACC eat-ACT
'[Someone] is eating a piece of fruit.' ~ 'A piece of fruit is being eaten.'

5. nuto an bamo
nuto an bam-o
fruit AUX eat-PASS
'A piece of fruit is being eaten.'
(This construction is less common than just dropping the subject as in sentence number 4. What I have glossed as an auxiliary is literally a word meaning "become".)

6. nuton to bame
nuto-n to bam-e
fruit-ACC person eat-ACT
'The piece of fruit is being eaten by the person.'

7. nuton bame to
nuto-n bam-e to
fruit-ACC eat-ACT person
'The person is eating the piece of fruit.'
(This order marks the subject as focus.)

[jal]

I applaud you for trying to make sense out of this, I gave up long ago :).


JAL