Nomen

[Chengjiang]

I came back to this forum after lurking for a while because my boyfriend is writing fiction using a conworld we're designing together, and he needs a language. This language, which for now we're calling Nomen from the Latin nomen "name", is to be the language of a global community of magic users hidden in space-time pockets around the world connected by a teleportation network. He wanted the language to be reminiscent of two things:

• "Hocus pocus"-esque pseudo-Latin of incantations and the like
• "The language of binomial nomenclature", specifically in resembling Latin with tons and tons of out-of-place-looking morphemes from other sources mixed in

Of these, the latter is more important.

As far as the internal history is concerned, I think the simplest way to do this is to have this community adopt a Latin-based pidgin as a lingua franca with heavy vocabulary and other influences from other prominent languages of the ancient world, and then develop the language as a creole from there. (It's already been decided that this community began to be hidden from regular people during classical antiquity.)

Here's the problem: "The language of binomial nomenclature" already exists: It's New Latin. Admittedly, New Latin is by definition not exactly what this culture would speak: It's nobody's L1 and is pronounced according to rules based on the L1 of the speakers in question. That said, I'm still not sure how to both honor my boyfriend's request and design the language to be something people have been actively speaking and living and evolving for over 2000 years. I think it's doable, but I'm uncertain if I'm going about it the right way. Any advice? I created this topic over in L&L because I was thinking through potential sound changes for Nomen to go through.

[mèþru]

Make a language and use bogolinguistics to derive a Latin-like language. It helps if the phonology is already similar to Latin or is similar to any of the historical predecessors of Latin (Old Latin, Proto-Italic, PIE). To me, Classical Latin is the most "magical"-sounding era. "hocus pocus" is though to have been derived as a Protestant snub on Latin rituals in Catholicism. Many magic words are made up, funny words. Abracadabra, however, is a rare thing among magic words because it was actually used as a magic word by serious practitioners. Romans used it to make diseases go away. This practice, as well as the word, probably had Aramaic or Hebrew origins (Wikipedia also suggests Greek). The fastest and easiest way of course, is to mix the history of sound change of Gaulish and/or Ancient Greek with some custom changes and apply them to a mix of Classical Latin and Classical Latin-like gibberish made with gen.

[Chengjiang]

Make a language and use bogolinguistics to derive a Latin-like language.

That satisfies the first bullet point, but not the second one, which is the more important of the two. Also, this is supposed to be based on Latin to start off with and have existed for a long time, not to have come to resemble Latin in it current state starting from something else.

[Nortaneous]

Make a language with the phonology and some of the prominent affixes of Latin, then drop something else on top of it for a few hundred years so it ends up with tons of loanwords.

Applying some simple sound changes to Amqoli:

tS dZ > ts dz > s z
z > l / #_
z > s / _#
z > r
q > k / #(C)_
q R > 0 (after the vowel effects)
au > a
l_j r_j > j
S Z > s j
a > e / _$i
a > o / _$u
epenthetic /a/ (or /e/ following /e/) everywhere
el ol > o / _#
l > u / _#
u > o / _#
x > h / _#
ex > a
x > 0
b > v / V_V
uv > v
j > i > e / [# C]V unless V = e (diphthongs don't count)
j > z > s

(Also some muddling with word boundaries to make it look more Latin-like.)

Borju rkaz i ema xadzi lberis. Erzhel borjum njarye zgu marideq, erzhel bqu taqubza. Ema muqrzhex, es rbel shqaqori, es borjum xadzi ne me qol, zhim photsmashx, sha obzhdami regas. sha borju zha temts lu tqol. sha xadzi tem, tphotsmashx, topshix, es obzhdami trega, shlya ham borju, lu, qabqu tkelyi... Boreo racas i ema hari laveris. Ero boreo nease rego meridea, ereva tabra. Ema muria, es rabo scacori, es boreum hari nemeco, im phosmas, sa oveadami regas. Sa boreo ea temes loto. Sa haritem, taphosmas to psies oveadami trega, seaham boreo, lo, cabo tecei...

[KathTheDragon]

Dang, that looks really like Latin.

[Curlyjimsam]

Classical-ish Latin itself of course carried on being used widely up to pretty recently in spite of being "nobody's L1" and "pronounced according to rules based on the L1 of the speakers in question".Could you do something similar with this Latin-based language? That is, it is plausible that this global community tend to use ordinary languages for everyday purposes and so the Latinish language doesn't change too much?

[mèþru]

Make a language and use bogolinguistics to derive a Latin-like language.

That satisfies the first bullet point, but not the second one, which is the more important of the two. Also, this is supposed to be based on Latin to start off with and have existed for a long time, not to have come to resemble Latin in it current state starting from something else.

In that case, use the fast way. It is the most suitable for your language.

The fastest and easiest way of course, is to mix the history of sound change of Gaulish and/or Ancient Greek with some custom changes and apply them to a mix of Classical Latin and Classical Latin-like gibberish made with gen.

As for the 2^nd bullet point, magic words used today are usually made up nonsense. The magic rituals of ancient times used normal or high register words in normal sentences. For example, to summon a creature, one would say "I bid (deity or spirit) to find me a (creature), in return I offer (offering)."

[gestaltist]

If it was my project, I would make the language of magic users develop from the languages of civilizations that did the most magic (ostensibly).

Without doing any research, maybe Persian and Egyptian, then Latin tacked onto it, then Arabic, then Hebrew (kabbalah didn't become a thing until later in history). This assuming the spacetime pockets don't connect distant places - let's not forget the ancient Chinese tradition with alchemy and astrology.

[Nortaneous]

It's possible to derive Latin from anything if you don't care that much about realism.

Tpcgoŗqř dy mon heceģàt tconrʼend. Ņeņeģàt, hecqdundonow magmatʼ tmunija, hecenrʼendonow a hyŗija. Ḽrokmintř kêms, hsʼektdsař májtk kròrògomps. Trpipuḽumpř ân yn troŗèmpř, kcplawyņqow miņin. Kròkmínk ropuḽow kròdìrģàt, tacqdumbynaw kuŗiaw. Reģàt tkstsèņsekemb, kstlgàrán bynkstìqʼaw. Trpiqdumbow ropsègniw, pqdundonow. Rtʼàmgow reģàt ḽrḽasʼnàhow ân kstìhaņguw kŗestʼ kròpsʼogón míņtʼ sʼogija.

tɬ > ll / V_V, > l
lr > l / #_
Pʰ Pʼ > F P
f > p
ts > s
aɟ > ae
c ɟ ç > t d k
r > rr / V_V
tʂ dʐ ʂ > t r s
some consonant clusters reduce
ŋ > n / #_, > 0
q ɢ χ > k 0 h
qʷ ɢʷ χʷ > kʷ w w
gʷ > kʷ
kʷ > kʷe / _#
k > 0 / _R except #_
o > u / _w# Cʷ_
Rw > R
w > f > s / V_#
ɨ > a
ʷ > 0
n > m / _# unless unstressed
o > a UNLESS _$a
nd > ns
gm > gn
n > 0 / _$n
u$u > u$o
Cr$r > C$r
nsC > sC

vaman tarrens > vamant arrens, why not

Goras dimam hecevat tandrens. Nevat, hecundanus magnat munia, hecedrendanas a harria. Lamins quens, sexas maec crurogans pipuluns vamant arrens, plavancus mim. Cruminque rapulas crudirat, tadumbanas currias, revat sensecem quaram basticas.

[Chengjiang]

The primary stock the language is derived from is still supposed to be Latin, but I guess I can put the non-Latin vocab through sound changes to make it end up looking Latinate.

I'm trying to come up with what sort of changes to apply to this to have it be clearly different from Latin but still kind of resemble it. I'm thinking perhaps deriving it from Latin less the way the Romance languages do and perhaps more the way Tok Pisin derives from English. Its speakers are longer-lived on average than non-magic-using humans are, so despite this it may end up not having changed that much in basic structure since its formation.

[Chengjiang]

Some sample changes:

• Latin's original system of personal pronouns has been entirely replaced by morphemes derived from (neuter) demonstratives associated with the appropriate person: ego with ho from hoc, tu with stu from istud, and is/ea/id with lu from illum. This is derived from a common paraphrase for person with "this one" standing in for "I" and so on. Plurals are formed by adding -cus from an old postposed amicus: hocus "we", stucus "ye", lucus "they". (Yes, it is deliberate that "we" is "hocus". ) A polite second person pronoun is pensa from sapientia "(your) wisdom", with pencus as a plural.
• Verbs have lost most of their original conjugations, but have gained a new TAM system from concatenation of verbs, e.g. vendice "will say". I don't have a lot of ideas here yet.
• The language has developed an invariant definite article al from the Arabic definite article.

[Chengjiang]

A few sound changes between Latin and this, aside from the additional erosion grammatical particles tend to experience:

• The contrast between long and short vowels is simply lost, possibly before the qualities of vowels had separated as much between long and short as they had in Late Latin, resulting in a simple five-vowel system.
• Most vowel sequences simplify to contain a single vowel. Generally the second element is preserved while the first is deleted or converted to a semivowel: > [j] while > [w].
• In sequences of consonant plus semivowel plus vowel, the semivowel is lost in most cases. This is also applied to sequences of consonant plus semivowel plus vowel, and since [kʷ] and the rare [gʷ] were reanalyzed as [kw gw] this applies to them as well. The exception is [Cwa] sequences, where the [w] is preserved, and [CjV] sequences where the vowel is non-front, in which case the [j] palatalizes certain C as follows: [t d n k g] > [s z nʝ s ʝ]. Examples: rubeus [rubeus] > rubus [rubus], equus [ekʷus] > ecus [ekus]
• Consonant clusters in the coda generally reduce to a single element, e.g. rex [reːks] > res [res].
• [w] > [ʋ] and [j] > [ʝ].
• [ai oi] > [əi] and [au] > [əu].

There will of course be more.

Sounds from other languages are fitted into this system as follows:

• Aspirated and breathy voiced consonants from Sanskrit/other Indo-Aryan languages, as well as from Chinese dialects, are generally converted to tenuis and modal voiced consonants, respectively.
• Aspirated stops from Greek become tenuis stops in early borrowings but fricatives in later borrowings.
• Dorsal and post-dorsal fricatives become [h].
• Non-native voiceless sibilants become [s], non-native voiced sibilants [z].
• Arabic and other [ʕ ʔ] become zero. "Emphatic" consonants merge into the closest non-emphatic, although as these use the Classical Arabic values of the sounds this may not correspond to their MSA values, e.g. dad being [l] from [ɮˤ] rather than [d] from [dˤ].
• Diphthongs such as [ei ou] generally become [e o], while [ai oi au eu] become [əi əu].

[Chengjiang]

Here's a tentative sound system I've been working with, along with the orthography I'm using. The language might not end up being written in this orthography; there's a good chance its primary orthography won't even be the Roman alphabet.

/m n/ m n
/p b t d k g/ p b t d c g
/f s z h/ f s z h
/ʋ ʝ/ v j
/l r/ l r

/i e a o u əi əu/ i e a o u ae au
(/ĩ ẽ ã õ ũ/) (in/im en/em an/am on/om un/um)

I think I'll have /ʋ/ and /ʝ/ vary somewhat between semivocalic glides and fricatives, the former ranging from [w] to [ʋ] to [v] and the latter ranging from [j] to [ʝ] to [ʒ].
/h/ may have [x] as an allophone. At any rate it's going to be retained even though Latin's descendants in reality largely got rid of it.
/z/ has been fully naturalized in this system and has developed in some native vocabulary as well as being common in loanwords.

/əi əu/, although they'll be used to reflect Latin diphthongs as well as diphthongs from a lot of the other source languages, may have monophthongized by the modern era to something like [ɛ ɔ].
I'm considering having coda nasals elide and nasalize the preceding vowel, broadening a trend already found in some environments in Classical Latin.

[mèþru]

Is this an althist? It sounds like a Middle Eastern romance language. If you want a realistic origin for the language, I would say that the world community of magicians stemmed from Romanised Arabs (pre-Islamic, post-Christian) living in the desert split between Iraq and Saudi Arabia. They eventually migrated to the cities of Iraq (either Late Sassinid or Early Islamic) and spread over the world.

[Travis B.]

That's not realistic - Latin had practically no influence in the Middle East (unlike Greek).

[mèþru]

The whole concept is very unrealistic - a Romance language which borrows regularly from Sanskrit and Chinese, spoken by a widespread community in nearly every country, as well as magic existing. I tried to make a more plausible suggestion before posting that, but I couldn't. The desert was barely inhabited, and the Arabs of that area did not have much influence from either Greeks nor Romans. Their main influence was Persian. I specifically avoided choosing the more populated areas of the Middle East because the Greek/Aramaic influence would have been too strong. Perhaps there was a Roman military camp there? (Probably not. The environment is too hostile and the location is too remote.)

[mèþru]

An idea for sound changes, based on what was previously mentioned:
L=āēīōū
H=àèìòùŵĵ
Q=áéíóú₩Ɉ
V=aeiouWJ
P=ptc
B=bdg
F=fsh
W=vzɦ
C=ptcbdgfshvzɦmnjlrw
S=mnlrāēīōūaeiouwj
U=uoa
q/c/_
u/w/_[VL]
v/w/_
ae/ei/_
ē/ī/_
ō/ū/_
i//_eS
u//_aS
L/V/_S
P//_#
B//_#
m/n/_#
o/u/S_[pbm]
i/j/_[VL]
j/d/#_
s/h/[#V]_V
w/W/_
j/J/_
/./_C[VL]
/./[VL]_[VL]
C./\\/C_[rl]
.//#_
.//W_
.//J_
.//e_i
.//a_u
V/H/_V
V/H/H_
V/H/_C
L/Q/_(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
H/Q/_(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
[LHV]/Q/_Q
V/Q/_(C).(C)(C)V(V)(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
H/Q/_(C).(C)(C)V(V)(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
L/Q/_(C).(C)(C)V(V)(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
V/Q/#(C)(C)(C)_(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
V/Q/#(C)(C)(C)_(V)(V)(C)(C)#
H/Q/#(C)(C)(C)_(H)(H)(C)(C)#
L/Q/#(C)(C)(C)_(C)(C)#
.//_
[₩ŵW]/w/_
[ɈĵJ]/j/_
H/V/_
Hn//V_[fsh]
H/V/_
V//_[V#]
Q/V/_
L/V/_
[wj]//C_[C#]
g//n_#
F/W/[V#]_V
w/b/_C
h/c/_C
cɦ/g/_
gɦ//_
Ph/F/_
Pɦ/W/_
B[hɦ]/W/_
P/h/_[PB]
P/h/_s
B/h/_[PB]
B/h/_s
p/b/[lrjw]_
w//C_V/_a
ʝ//C_V/_U
w/v/_
ɦ/h/_
[eo]/ə/_i
a/ə/_u
əi/ae/_
ə/a/_
As it is a global language, expect huge amounts of dialectal variation. The language's word for name is numen [NOMEN].
Here are some phrases:
Latinnovlin /la.tin.ov.lĩ/ [LINGVA LATINA NOVA] - Name of the language
Ho cugitu, ergu hun. /ho.ku.gi.tu.er.gu.hũ/ [COGITO, ERGO SUM] - I think, therefore I am.
alHenatus rumanus et alPopulus rumanus /al.hẽ.at.us.rũ.ã.us.et.al.po.pu.lus rũ.ã.us/ [SENATUS POPULUSQUE ROMANUS] - The Roman Senate and People
Pater noster, ci pensa caelis, hanhtivicitur stunn numen. /pater.noster.ki.pẽ.sa.cəilis.hãnxtivikitus.stun.nũ.en/ [PATER NOSTER, QUI ES IN CASELIS, SANCTIFICETUR NOMEN TUUM] - Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Edit:
Latinnovlin [la.tin.oʋ.lĩ] [LINGVA LATINA NOVA] - Name of the language
Ho cugitu, ergu hun. [ho.ku.ɡi.tʋer.ɡu.hũ] [COGITO, ERGO SVM] - I think, therefore I am.
alHenatus rumanus et alPopulus rumanus [al.he.nat.us.ru.na.tus.et.al.po.pu.lus ru.ma.nus] [SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS] - The Roman Senate and People
Pater noster, ci es caelis, hanhtivicitur stunn numen. [pa.ter.nos.ter.kjes.kəi.lis.hãx.ti.vi.ki.tus.stun.nũ.ẽ] [PATER NOSTER, QVI ES IN CASELIS, SANCTIFICETVR NOMEN TVVM] - Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

[mèþru]

The nasals look a bit ridiculous. I suggest that intervocalic nasals do not elide, ĩ/ẽ/_ and ũ/õ/_, all nasal vowels are indicated in the orthography and that nasals become phonemic after long vowels merge with short vowels. Short vowels during Classical Latin already had lowered values, and a complete merger would cause some morpheme confusion (apple and evil, malus et mālus). My idea is that short vowels were distinct from long vowels, but they went through a metaphony process that merged them with each other and long vowels.

Here is your ideas with my alterations plus some improvements to my previous sound change system:
/m n/ m n
/p b t d k g/ p b t d c g
/f s z h/ f s z h
/ʋ ʝ/ v j
/l r/ l r
/i e a o u əi əu/ i e a o u ĕ au
/ẽ ã õ/ ẽ ã õ

L=āēīōū
H=àèìòùŵĵ
Q=áéíóú₩Ɉ
V=aeiouWJ
N=ãẽẽõõ
P=ptc
B=bdg
F=fsh
W=vzɦ
C=ptcbdgfshvzɦmnjlrw
S=mnlrāēīōūaeiouwj
U=uoa
q/c/_
u/w/_[VL]
v/w/_
ae/ei/_
ē/ī/_
ō/ū/_
i//_eS
u//_aS
P//_#
B//_#
m/n/_#
o/u/S_[pbm]
i/j/_[VL]
j/d/#_
s/h/[#V]_V
w/W/_
j/J/_
/./_C[VL]
/./[VL]_[VL]
C./\\/C_[rl]
.//#_
.//W_
.//J_
.//e_i
.//a_u
V/H/_V
V/H/H_
V/H/_C
/T/_L(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
H/Q/_(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
[LHV]/Q/_Q
V/Q/_(C).(C)(C)V(V)(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
H/Q/_(C).(C)(C)V(V)(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
/T/_L(C).(C)(C)V(V)(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
V/Q/#(C)(C)(C)_(V)(C).(C)(C)[VHL](V)(H)(V)(H)(C)(C)#
V/Q/#(C)(C)(C)_(V)(V)(C)(C)#
H/Q/#(C)(C)(C)_(H)(H)(C)(C)#
/T/#(C)(C)(C)_L(C)(C)#
.//_
[₩ŵW]/w/_
[ɈĵJ]/j/_
H/V/_
Hn//V_[fsh]
H/V/_
V//_[V#]
Q/V/_
T//_
ī/ji/_
[lrjw]//[lrjw]_
L/Vi/_
[wj]//C_[C#]
g//n_#
F/W/[V#]_V
w/b/_C
h/c/_C
cɦ/g/_
gɦ//_
Ph/F/_
Pɦ/W/_
B[hɦ]/W/_
P/h/_[PB]
P/h/_s
B/h/_[PB]
B/h/_s
p/b/[lrjw]_
cj/t/_
w//C_V/_a
j//C_V/_U
w/v/_
ɦ/h/_
[eo]/ə/_i
a/ə/_u
əi/ae/_
ə/a/_
/h/V_i
V/N/_[mn]/_[mn]V
[mn]//N_

Here are some phrases:
letinnevlẽ [le.tin.neʋ.lẽ] [LINGVA LATINA NOVA] - Name of the language
Ho cugetu, ergu hõ. [ho.ku.ɡe.tʋer.ɡu.hõ] [COGITO, ERGO SVM] - I think, therefore I am.
alHenatus rumanus et alPepulus rumanus [al.he.na.tus.ru.ma.nus.et.al.pe.pu.lus.ru.ma.nus] [SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS] - The Roman Senate and People
Peter noster, ci es cĕlis, zãhtevicitur stõ numẽ. [pe.ter.nos.ter.kjes.kəi.lis.zãx.te.vi.ki.tur.stõ.num.ẽ] [PATER NOSTER, QVI ES IN CAELIS, SANCTIFICETVR NOMEN TVVM] - Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

[Chengjiang]

Hi, guys. Sorry I haven't updated this in a while. The problem is that I'm trying to design a conlang to the somewhat confusing specifications of someone whose linguistic knowledge is very limited. Hence this having features like being Latin-like in sound despite at best being a heavily heterogenized descendant of Latin, and being Latin-centric at all despite deriving from a lingua franca of a community connected by teleports around the Old World in general, not just Europe. I do think some aspects of it are a bit of a stretch, but I'm not really sure what to do in order to make it realistic while adhering to my boyfriend's vision.

For some perspective, here's the position the language is supposed to have in the setting, not so much what he's described it as sounding like:

In early antiquity (perhaps roughly contemporaneous with Mycenae), people with magical abilities began to separate themselves physically from non-magical people. This had been preceded by a period of increasing cultural separatism and the creation of a transnational magical identity due to limited magic-based long-distance communication. Through the development of spells that bent space, the mages developed enclaves that were bigger on the inside than on the outside (e.g. hiding an entire city in an area that otherwise looks like a cul-de-sac) and a means of teleportation allowing them to move between these cities. The developing magical community had nodes in population centers across Eurasia and well into Africa. (The Americas and Australia had some magic users as well, but these did not form part of the original community.) By, say, the Hellenistic/Roman republican era, magicals had almost entirely vanished from the perception of non-magical people. The modern magical community is descended primarily from this, with subsequent assimilation of wizards in farther-flung parts of the world in later ages. This community is heavily urbanized due to the ability to the creation of high-yield chimeric crops and livestock allowing a small farming area to support a very large population. Its present day world population is comparable to that of a large mundane conurbation, perhaps around 10 million people.

Given this description, what do you think would have developed as a common language? I don't really think my boyfriend's description entirely works either (I've been trying to rework it into a pidgin with roots in no single language), but I'd like to hear what you think.

[mèþru]

You can either have realism or the original specifications. Any compromise would cause you to loose both.

In early antiquity (perhaps roughly contemporaneous with Mycenae), people with magical abilities began to separate themselves physically from non-magical people. This had been preceded by a period of increasing cultural separatism and the creation of a transnational magical identity due to limited magic-based long-distance communication

Why did they separate from non-magical people? I imagine that whatever happened could not possibly apply to all magic-practicing peoples. Also, it is more likely for different ethnic groups to form different magic identities (unless they all live together in a spirit world city or something like that). Living among the Romans in secret is a could way to make a large amount adopt Latin, but that means that they would move away from the rest of the Roman-speakers after the fall of Rome. However, there is no reason for the wizards of the rest of the world to assimilate. Most likely, the wizards would just speak dialects of their local languages with unusually large amounts of loanwords from throughout the world. By the way, the history given ignores historical migrations from the city to the countryside. It also seems to suggest that urban area are a requirement for magic, which is an interesting concept for a novel. Another is that the existence of wizards, hidden or not, will affect history. Ritualism in ancient religions might not exist, as wizards can verify what works and what doesn't. Nomadic invasions threaten the homes of wizards, so they probably use magic to defend against Germanic/Hun/Mongol/Berber/Arab invasions. This is all assuming that magic works in a consistent, technological way. If it doesn't, anything is possible.