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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:57 pm 
Avisaru
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born from a mutual frustration with an inability to do geography well

an amalgamation of two poorly laid out conworlds

now with trade networks and borrowing

watch this space

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كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar


Last edited by Yng on Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:54 pm 
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there would be a juche wizard war chant in this space, but i think we have all learned a lesson about trusting services that run on machines that the creator of said services administers herself

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:55 pm 
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This sounds potentially interesting. Godspeed.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:12 pm 
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I think it is now time to write about the current proceeds of the conference of the society for the exploration of the five springs, by which i mean "yng and me went on irc and talked about congeography and areal features".

Map of the Tsi Empire and Surroundings

The center of our convenient rectangular view is the Malayan Archipelago group of large islands that are mostly ruled by Indonesia the Tsi Empire, a multiethnic maritime empire held together mostly by reeds and regular payment of tributes. To the north is what the Tsi call the Spring of the Dog or the Dog Continent, a continent characterized by a dry and arid climate (at least by Tsi standards), and an abundance of mountains by the coast. To the South and West is a large Eurantartica, which to the Tsi is known primarily via the presence of a civilization that, due to convenient access to ore deposits, has so far both resisted attempts at vassalization and become an indispensable trade partner.

Linguistically, this area is of significant diversity. On the islands, Tsiic (including Cuhbi and Tsi itself) and Kaam-Yerte languages are widely spoken; the Nta river delta and its surroundings are populated mostly with Kangshuic speakers, and the inhabitants of the southern reaches of the Dog Continent speak Kllkic languages, alongside several isolates and smaller families.

With the exception of the Kllkic languages, the languages of this area all share several features. Phonologically, the large majority are tonal, with the usual tone system being a per-syllable pitch distinction with two or three levels. Another pervasive feature is an alveolar-retroflex distinction, as well as relatively large vowel inventories. The Kaam-Yerte and Kangshuic families additionally share with each other a widespread presence of uvular consonants.

Grammatically, there are similarly many common features. As concerns morphology, the languages of the area generally have a medium grade of synthesis on the verb, and relatively little on nouns. Both case marking and person agreement on the verb are uncommon; where person agreement does happen, it it usually in syntactically restricted environments. In Cuhbi, for instance, verbs are marked for topic only in the absence of an overt NP in the sentential topic position. Similarly, Southern Kaam-Yerte languages usually affixally mark only the patient of transitive verbs.

Syntactically, complex predicates of all types are widespread. All language families tend to make heavy use of serial verb constructions; Tsiic languages and Kaam-Yerte languages that have been in heavy contact with them additionally tend to have large inventories of phrasal verbs, thanks to the closed class of true verbs in most Tsiic languages.

For illustration, we have translated a sentence from the Kül Tegin inscription into representative members of each family.

"When the blue sky above and the dark earth below were made, then were made between them both the sons of men."

Tsi (Tsiic):
apság prʰə t!óóŋ dro n|úúŋ ŋa χǫǫ ʃok!ʰąç bvʰa dʰęę dʰe dzep ʃok!ʰąç
apság prʰə t!óó-ŋ dro n|úúŋ ŋa χǫǫ ʃo-k!ʰąç bvʰa dʰęę dʰe dzep ʃo-k!ʰąç
lo! blue sky=and black earth be_with when downwards-come_down-DEP time this[5] mankind downwards-come_down



Risha Cuhbi (Tsiic):

fícya fálada adèyatà duya ugoda acayitàyi ubùùʔà kayi ngáhobùù ciiʔà
fíci-a fálada-a a-dè-ø-i-a-tà duyi-a ugoda-a a-ca-i-tà=i u-bì-â-t=ʔà ka=i ngá=o-bì-â-t ci-t=ʔà
sky-OBL blue-OBL STAT-be_above-IMP.REAL-NOM-OBL-COM_OBL earth-OBL black-OBL STAT-be_below-IMP_REAL-NOM-OBL-COM_OBL PASS-come_out-VEN-PERF.REAL=EV man=TOP then=CONJ-come_up-VEN-PERF.REAL be_between-VEN-PERF.REAL=EV


Kangshi (Kangshuic):
qɤxâ qɤndǽ ŋsu bʁɤ̀u bmo mdì ni ŋmɤʂtæ̂ tɤ mxbɯ̂ ʂtæ̂ mzɤpa
qɤ-xâ qɤ-ndǽ ŋsu b-ʁɤ̀u b-mo mdì ni ŋ=m=ʂtæ̂ tɤ m=xbɯ̂ ʂtæ̂ m-sɤ-pa
cVI-sky cVI-green be_with cIV-earth cIV-black two LOC NMLZ=REAL=be_born.PFV then REAL=be_between be_born LOC PL-cI-man


Pirka (Kangshuic):
ù ntɛ̀h ʃą́ hɔ̀ ú lùər mwə́ɣ m̀ rtɛ́y tə́ m̀ phyə̀ŋ rtɛ́y ų̀ pá
ù ntɛ̀h ʃą́ hɔ̀ ú lùər mwə́ɣ m̀ rtɛ́y tə́ m̀ phyə̀ŋ rtɛ́y ų̀ pá
DEF green sky and DEF black earth REAL be_born then REAL be_between be_born DEF.PL man


Ubghuu (Kaam-Yerte):
qààŋɢɨ̀ pɕírkí pɛ́ʔ ʂóó vɔ̀ɖáʔ bè ghàb ɽɨ́yp ùdhúú ŋgə̀lyùù thə̀qáàŋ zę́ę́
qàâŋ-gi pɕír-gi pɛ́ʔ ʂóó u-ɔ̀ɖáʔ bè ghàb ɽɨ́yp ù-dhúú ŋgə̀ly=ùù thə-qáâŋ zę́ę́
make.REAL-CVB.ANT lie.REAL-CVB.ANT blue sky REL-be_above and black earth REL-be_below be_between=it_is_known PASS-make.REAL man

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:44 pm 
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bumplaceholder

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蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
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Read all about my excellent conlangs
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 9:29 am 
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Ubghuu phonology:
Code:
m        mʲ        n                          ŋ
p        pʲ        t        ts̻                k         q        ʔ
pʰ       pʲʰ       tʰ       ts̻ʰ               kʰ        qʰ
b        bʲ        d        dz̻                ɡ         ɢ
f        fʲ        s        s̻                                    h
ʋ                  r                  j
                   l

The voiceless stops are realized as voiced intervocalically. The voiced stops are aspirated at the beginning of words and fricate intervocalically, except in immediate post-tonic position, where they are also aspirated (voiceless stops also do not voice). The exception is the voiced uvular stop, which is fricated in all positions except immediately post-tonically and syllable-finally. The fricatives also voice at the beginning of words. The apical consonants are retroflex in all positions, except for the apical s in a cluster with a palatalized labial.

In clusters, the aspirated stops and h cannot occur. Word-initial clusters may otherwise consist of a homorganic nasal plus a stop, glottal stop plus any allowed consonant, or a consonant plus either an apical consonant or a resonant.

(Some?) voicing rules also apply in sandhi across word boundaries, so that /pɛ́ʔ só/ [pɛ́ʔ ʂóó], but /só/ [ʐóó]. Note also lengthening of one-mora words.

Tones are complicated and who knows how they work. Surface tones are HL, but syllables (or at least stems?) may underlyingly carry contour tones. Tones spread rightwards through unmarked syllables except where a glottal stop intervenes. Something something sandhi.

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R.Rusanov wrote:
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 3:33 pm 
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uguu

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:56 pm 
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beep boop

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:29 am 
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Quote:
15:06 < yng> we know that probs ubghuu has loads of cuhbi words
15:06 < yng> because of the whole slave thing
15:08 < H13> hm
15:08 < H13> does nepali have a newar substrate
15:09 < H13> b/c I was thinking of ubghuu as the indigenous-language-massively-influenced-by-superstrate type
15:09 < yng> h13: yeah
15:09 < H13> some of which is obviously old like
15:09 < yng> well both are possible of course
15:09 < H13> insular kaam-yerte breathy stops
15:09 < H13> are tsiic influence
15:10 < yng> I mean we definitely have some stuff going both ways
15:10 < yng> unless of course
15:10 < yng> what's happened wrt e.g. the locative verbs
15:10 < yng> is that cuhbi originally had locative verbs hovering around in sentences
15:10 < yng> then bound them to the main verb more and more
15:10 < H13> so the direction there would be what
15:10 < yng> whilst ubghuu still has the equivalent of the older cuhbi structure
15:11 < H13> locative verbs are supposed to be p ancient in KY
15:11 < yng> well in that case it would have to be either the opposite direction or else they work differently
15:11 < H13> what is possible is that m/b
15:12 < H13> under cuhbi influence ubghuu recently reanalyzed the verbs as nouns or similar
15:12 < yng> well
15:12 < yng> so
15:13 < yng> certainly like
15:13 < yng> proto-tsiic
15:13 < yng> probably had locative verbs which work similarly to ubghuu's as you've described them
15:13 < yng> oh
15:13 < yng> except wait
15:13 < yng> no
15:13 < yng> not as you've described them
15:13 < yng> proto-tsiic had ones which were basically 'be in X' where X is the object
15:13 < yng> or whatever
15:13 < yng> which cuhbi still has
15:14 < yng> the development from tsiic > tsi involves a reanalysis of the most common ones as locative clitics
15:14 < H13> o
15:14 < H13> hmmm
15:14 < yng> cuhbi basically maintains them as they were in proto-tsiic independently except they become increasingly bound to main verbs
15:14 < yng> so now if you want to say
15:15 < yng> 'he killed him on the beach'
15:15 < yng> you get (him) beach kill be_on
15:15 < yng> which is different from ubghuu because ubghuu obviously has verbs meaning e.g.
15:15 < yng> be_on_the_beach
15:15 < H13> yes
15:16 < H13> well
15:16 < H13> it's a bit more complicated since while there's a bunch of them and they can be p specific
15:17 < H13> locative verbs in ubghuu are a closed class
15:17 < H13> so there is the possibility of forming phrasal locatives
15:18 < H13> something like beach be_at_coast_of_still_body_of_water kill
15:19 < yng> yeah
15:19 < yng> so you can add a noun complement of some kind
15:20 < yng> to extend their meaning
15:22 < H13> yes
15:27 < yng> yeah
15:27 < yng> so they are similar then
15:28 < yng> h13: well I mean cuhbi and ubghuu can differ on this
15:28 < yng> if cuhbi does not have a huge ubghuu substrate
15:28 < yng> it probably has some borrowed words right
15:28 < yng> for like flora and fauna
15:28 < yng> we need to work out also how long cuhbi has been in ubghuuland for
15:30 < H13> yes
15:30 < H13> well
15:30 < H13> the interplay of kaam-yerte and tsiic is probably a labyrinthine shitfest in general
15:31 < H13> since they're the two most widespread families in tsalaysia, right
15:34 < H13> given the current distribution of languages the history presumably looks like
15:35 < H13> 1) first settlement of the islands
15:35 < H13> much time passes
15:35 < yng> yeah
15:35 < H13> 2) dog continent settled by current inhabitants
15:35 < H13> 3) kaam-yerte spreads to the islands, displacing many indigenous languages
15:36 < H13> 4) tsiic does the same thing
15:36 < H13> 5) kangshuic speakers descend from the mountains on the mainland
15:37 < H13> 3 4 and 5 not necessarily happening in that order
15:41 < yng> h13: yeah that makes sense
16:03 < yng> h13: yeah I mean 4 and 5 are not that closely related right
16:04 < H13> no
16:04 < H13> 3 and 5 might be
16:05 < H13> depending on where what populations originate from
16:05 < yng> yeah that would make sense
16:05 < yng> equally kaam yerte could be from the dog continent
16:05 < yng> displaced by internal migration there
16:07 < H13> possible!
16:09 < yng> also like
16:09 < yng> the locative verb things seem kind of like kllk
16:09 < yng> so

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:49 pm 
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Proto-Qoic* > ??? > Proto-Kangshuic > Kangshi
*ɗiɠaːm > *təjʔɛːm > *dzaam₃₅ > zâu

1. It's an open question how large Kangshuic actually is, and where Kangshuic stops and the next level above it starts. There are areal effects to consider here: Proto-Kangshuic as it stands had seven tones. Kangshi retains four, Pirka collapsed them down to just two, unless I change it, which I probably have to in some way or other -- tone in Kangshuic was originally supposed to be much younger. The archipelagic languages so far all seem to have two- or three-tone systems. Did Kangshi and Pirka lose tones under their influence? If yes, what was spoken where coastal Kangshuic languages are spoken now?

2. If the archipelagic languages have tone now, and Proto-Kangshuic had tone then, what is the general history of tone in the area? Given that PK was probably spoken in a shitty mountain valley, the developments could be unrelated. Then again, rGyalrong languages were isolated enough to become batshit, but mostly not isolated enough to hide from becoming tonal. Do other Qoic languages have tone?

3. If Kaam-Yerte came from the north, and Kllk is any indication, Kaam-Yerte tone is relatively young. Alternatively, Kllk might *not* be an indication -- if Tsiic didn't spread across the islands until after KY did, KY either didn't pick its tones up from there or KY tone is very young. The islands might have been a tone zonepun intended for a long time, but then, Kllk would seem to be evidence against that. Where is the Tsiic homeland?

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蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:45 pm 
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IRC dumps are the lifeblood of this thread

Quote:
17:27 < yng> where is the tsiic homeland indeed
17:28 < yng> h13: I would guess somewhere on the big continent to the south
17:28 < yng> not the dog continent
17:29 < H13> well yng it might be on Shit Taiwan
17:30 < H13> might as well go the whole hog if you're already ripping off the real world
17:32 < yng> where's shit taiwan
17:32 < yng> oh
17:32 < yng> I see
17:32 < yng> sure
17:32 < yng> why not
17:32 < yng> lol
17:32 < yng> I mean cuhbi certainly arrives at the far end of tsiland relaaaatively recenty
17:32 < yng> recently
17:33 < yng> where ubghuu has been lurking like an unpleasant smell
17:37 < yng> well if kaam-yerte comes from the dog continent
17:38 < yng> I don't really know what time frames we're talking here
17:38 < yng> eastern cuhbi and western cuhbi must've split like... a long time ago
17:40 < H13> cuhbi is basically a top-level branch of tsiic, right
17:40 < yng> yeah
17:40 < yng> the distinctions between western and eastern are p sharp
17:40 < yng> eastern loses q a bit of morphology than innovates some more
17:41 < yng> western is quite conservative
17:41 < yng> phonologically obvs there's q a few differences but the most Major changes are the loss of aspirated consonants in both
17:42 < H13> okay so then we already know
17:42 < yng> but they lose them differently
17:42 < H13> KY-Cuh contact predates the loss of aspirates
17:42 < yng> yeah
17:42 < H13> or at least of voiced aspirates, the voiceless ones are probably native to KY
17:43 < H13> whereas the voiced aspirates are a consequence of shamelessly doing a chintang, by which I mean b d g > bh dh gh
17:43 < H13> unconditionally
17:45 < yng> h13: ahh so
17:45 < yng> KY generates a bunch of voiced aspirates whilst in contact with tsiic
17:46 < H13> yng: yeah
17:46 < yng> hmm OK
17:47 < yng> the contact is probably p old then
17:47 < H13> which were presumably phonemic in a lot of branches at some point
17:47 < yng> yeah
17:47 < H13> ubghuu lost the contrast
17:52 < yng> ubghuu loses the contrast between what
17:52 < H13> plain and aspirated voiced stops
17:52 < H13> at least in my current, ever-fluctuating model of its evolution
17:55 < yng> well risha cuhbi loses all its voiced and voiceless aspirated stops
17:55 < yng> I don't know about western cuhbi
17:57 < yng> anyway
17:57 < yng> I guess what this means is we have to have tsiic and other languages being around for ages with KY
17:57 < yng> which makes sense
17:57 < H13> yes
17:57 < yng> if KY-speakers have been gradually displaced
17:57 < yng> from large portions of the archipelago
17:57 < H13> also it may be necessary to postulate like
17:57 < yng> slash absorbed into tsiic
17:57 < H13> a second large KY migration
17:58 < H13> in which some branch already heavily influenced by tsiic disperses outward
17:58 < yng> makes sense
17:59 < H13> so presumably there is a great formosan diversity of top-level KY branches on some shitty islands off the coast of the dog continent, each with a few hundred speakers
17:59 < yng> yeah
17:59 < yng> that sounds v plausible
18:00 < yng> well it might be that
18:01 < yng> eugh migratory history is complicated
18:01 < yng> lol
18:02 < yng> but if tsiic speakers are gradually pushing against existing islanders
18:02 < yng> it doesn't seem implausible that their advance (poss fuelled by some kind of technological advantage allowing for higher fertility) pushes out the existing people
18:03 < yng> who then move in successive waves of chain migration further and further north
18:03 < H13> yes
18:03 < H13> I was thinking this
18:03 < yng> eventually KY branches in the south of the archipelago die out
18:04 < yng> but at the same time the ones in the north are dying out too or being absorbed into people coming from the south
18:04 < H13> and all the while the tsiic languages expanding north are getting KY-ified
18:05 < yng> yeah
18:05 < H13> this is both an excellent population history and a solution to the austronesian problem
18:05 < yng> should really work out what's going on with tsiic
18:06 < yng> I mean I guess cuhbi and tsi are not so hugely different
18:06 < yng> but they are probably thousands of years of development apart, if they are even properly related
18:07 < yng> I remember when I was looking at cognates
18:07 < yng> we're looking at like
18:07 < yng> tèng in cuhbi
18:08 < yng> < /k|ʰẽke/ in the protolang
18:08 < yng> or [k|ʰẽke]
18:08 < yng> I don't know what this would be in tsi
18:11 < yng> according to current sound changes it would be [k|ʰɛk] in tsi
18:11 < yng> lol
18:12 < H13> p conservative
18:12 < yng> yeah
18:12 < yng> but other things are much less so
18:12 < yng> compare like
18:13 < yng> proto-tsiic [kʘʰa̰ja̰n]
18:16 < yng> > cuhbi /pìì/
18:16 < yng> lol
18:16 < yng> vs tsi...
18:16 < yng> let's see
18:18 < H13> KY is similarly bad
18:19 < H13> remember bhòqh "lowlander"
18:20 < H13> historically that is a compound, the first element of which is *rU:wá "boat"
18:21 < yng> the tsi cognate is [ˈqǀʰəĩ] lol
18:21 < yng> I mean
18:21 < yng> this is probably a looong time-depth
18:21 < yng> I dunno what sort of time is reasonable
18:22 < yng> probs like... 1,500 years???
18:22 < yng> 2,500 years???
18:23 < yng> I have no idea
18:23 < H13> some other ubghuuic language probably has like
18:23 < H13> qhuài "outcast"
18:23 < H13> for massively intransparent cognate of the -qh
18:23 < H13> lol
18:24 < yng> oh god
18:24 < yng> lol
18:25 < H13> the original meaning was of course "foreigner"
18:25 < yng> maybe in some language it means tsi.
18:25 < yng> although actually tbh
18:25 < yng> it probably meant tsi historically
18:25 < yng> or tsiic-speaker
18:26 < yng> but not anymore
18:26 < yng> if so
18:26 < H13> for extra fun I am going to derive it from PKY *twi? "travel"

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:35 pm 
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Qɤxâ mzdìe ʁɯ ɯbdɤ ŋɤzǽ bɤ̂ ŋbste mzɤpa.
qɤ-
CL.VI-
heaven
m-
REAL-
zdìe
bear.CONT
ʁɯ
go
ɯ-
CL.V-
bdɤ
thing
ɯ-
CL.V-
ŋ=
NMLZ-
ɤ-
NEG-
count
=bɤ̂
DAT-
ŋ=
NMLZ-
b-
CAUS-
ste
nourish
m-
PL-
zɤ-
CL.I-
pa
man

Mzɤpa mspûa ɯbdɤ ɯŋí oʁú bɤ̂ ŋspu è ʁɯ ni qɤxâ.
m-
PL-
zɤ-
CL.I-
pa
man
m-
REAL-
spûa
take.CONT
ɯ-
CL.V-
bdɤ
thing
ɯ-
CL.V-
ŋí
one
o-
NEG-
ʁ-
SUBJ.VERS-
ú
be_at
=bɤ̂
DAT-
ŋ=
NMLZ-
spu
take.PUNCT
è
go_back
ʁɯ
go
=ni
LOC-
qɤ-
CL.VI-
heaven

Zùa. Zùa. Zùa. Zùa. Zùa. Zùa. Zùa.
zùa
kill
zùa
kill
zùa
kill
zùa
kill
zùa
kill
zùa
kill
zùa
kill

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
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sex want-PRS-1sg

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:34 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
i have been Recruited. here is a basic summary of each language family in the Allosphere, so places can be found for them

----

Shit Altaic
Shit Altaic consists of four languages or microfamilies: Kannow, Kett, Arve, and Sestmag. Any relation between them is possible, though none can be conclusively proven. Notable features of the Shit Altaic sprachbund include:
* suffixal (except Sestmag), polysynthetic (except Arve, which only marks subject, and Kett, which doesn't mark it at all) verb agreement, on otherwise strongly prefixing verbs
* large consonant inventories formed by the collapse of former consonant clusters (except Kannow)
* a strong stress accent with vowel reduction in unstressed syllables (except Kannow)
* phonemic aspiration or preaspiration
* various forms of fluid alignment
* very little nominal morphology, but polysynthetic verbs
* large noun class systems in Kannow and Sestmag
* some sort of definiteness contrast, folded into topicality in all languages but Kannow, although I'm not sure what Arve does

Kannow
Kannow is a polysynthetic, head-initial, VSO language with no fricatives. It has nine noun classes, of which three are animate and six are inanimate.

Inventory:
Code:
pʼ tʼ tsʼ tɬʼ tʂʼ cʼ kʼ qʼ (ʔ)
pʰ tʰ tsʰ tɬʰ tʂʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ
b  d      dɮ  dʐ  ɟ  g  ɢ
m  n             (ɲ) ŋ
      r          (j) w      h

i ɨ u
e ə
  a

Coronals, velars, and uvulars have contrastive rounding, which spreads through clusters. Vowels contrast for length and have some degree of height harmony.

Morphosyntactic outline:
Kannow is VSO. It has three word classes: nouns, verbs, and particles. Verbs can either be finite/full verbs or non-finite/adjectival. There are five verb tenses (remote past, near past, present, near future, and irrealis/far future), two degrees of evidentiality (sensory and inferential), and three voices (passive, active, and causative). Unlike in Kett, verbs have a strict valence that can only be changed by voice markers. Intransitive verbs are fluid-S, and transitive verbs use case-marking for telicity and affectedness of the patient. Nouns mark two numbers, indefinite nouns mark plurality, and there is a somewhat adjectival construct state.

Geographical notes:
Kannow is spoken on the coast of the mainland, near Harue. It eventually shifts aspirated and voiced plosives to fricatives, and expands to cover a region roughly comparable to China.

Example:
A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side.
Qeeŗemtʼand itkʼynitu iłipnu; heltìkdind—Murqdutʼàw kìjindija?
/qʰeːremtʼand itʰkʼɨnitu itɬʰipʰnu hedɮtʷʰikʰdind mudʐqdutʷʼaw kʷiɟindiɟa/
ģ-he-ŗem-tʼa-nd itkʼynit-u iłipn-u; he-ltìk-d-nd—m-r-qdu-tʼa-`ow kì-je-nd-ija
along-I.RP-walk-C5.D-C5.A scorpion-C5.INDEF riverbank-INDEF; I.RP-think-C6.P-C5.A—Q-S.PR-go-C5.D-1S.A M.NF-other-C5.A-C5.DEF

Suddenly, he saw a fox.
Tpèenastʼand kandaŗ.
/tʷʰpʰeːnatsʰtʼand kʰandar/
tp`-he-nys-tʼ-nd kand-ŗ
suddenly-I.RP-see-C2.D-C5.A fox-C2.INDEF

He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river.
Helettʼend—Plʼuqdundyntʼyr kìjindija ŗakèest sycisʼís?
/hedɮetʼːend pʰtɬʼuqʰdundɨntʼɨdʐ kʷiɟindiɟa rakʷʰeːtsʰtʰ tsʰɨcʰitsʼitsʷʰ/
he-li-d-tʼ-nd—plʼ-qdu-ndon-tʼa-r kì-je-nd-ija ŗa-kì-e-st syci-sʼ-s`
I.RP-ask-C6.P-C2.D-C5.A—CAUS.OPT.PR-go-C5.P-C5.D-C2.A M.NF-other-C5.A-C5.DEF INSTR-M.NF-do-C7.A back-C7.DEF-C2.POSS

The fox said, "No. If I do that, you'll sting me, and I'll drown."
Hedaqʼadr—Kneņèw. Ņenrèw, getkʼomg, ņeclʼamkʼ.
/hedaqʼaddʐʰ kʰneŋʷew ŋenʷdʐew getʰkʼəmg ŋecʰtɬʼamkʼ/
he-daqʼ-d-r—k-neņ-e-`ow. ņenr-e-`ow ge-tkʼo-m-g, ņec-lʼam-kʼ
I.RP-say-C6.P-C2.A—NEG-S.NRF-do-1S.A. COND.I.NRF-do-1S.A, IRR-sting-1S.P-2S.A, IRR.M-drown-2S.P

Kett
Kett has two dialects: Insular Kett, which is spoken on the island of Harue, and Continental Kett, which is spoken on the mainland, presumably near Kannow territory. The differences are mostly phonological: Continental Kett retains postalveolars and the two-tone system of Proto-Kett, which became a stress accent in Insular Kett, and hasn't collapsed its vowel system. There is no aspect distinction.

Inventories:
- Proto-Kett:
Code:
p t ts tʂ tɕ k
(f) s  ʂ  ɕ  x  h
m   n  ɳ  ɲ  ŋ
    l  ɭ  ʎ
(v) r  ɽ  j  w

i u
e o
 a

Velars and coronals, at least, have contrastive rounding. Syllable structure is mostly CV(C)(C).

- Insular Kett:
Code:
p  t  ts  k
ɓ  tʙ̥
f     s   x   h
m     n   ŋ
      l
      r
      j ɥ w

e
a


Syllable structure is CV(C). Resonants except /r/ can be syllabic. Most dialects merge /p/ and /tʙ̥/ into /f/.

Morphosyntactic outline:
Kett has trigger alignment and is, unusually for Shit Altaic, fairly isolating. Verbs distinguish three tenses (past, present, and future/irrealis), two aspects (perfective and imperfective), and two pseudovoices that mark whether or not the topic is the agent but don't affect valence, which isn't really a thing at all. Insular Kett has undergone heavy Arve influence and is probably somewhat creolized.

Geographical notes:
Kett is spoken along the coast/north of Harue, and on the mainland across a channel from Harue. They are probably maritime merchants, roughly comparable to the Norse. The Kett have had writing for a while.

Example:
Veruan haue lehang lat ḩengg ḩi lekter kaumaru.
[ˈveɾwɔn χawɪ lɪˈχɑŋ lɐt heʰŋ̥ çi ˈlektɪɾ ˈkɔwmaɾʊw]
véru=an háu-ue leháng lat ḩeng-ng ḩi létak-er káu-m-aru
heaven=TOP thing-PL many INT give-IPFV.ACT REL man-COLL nurture-GER-do

Lekteran sey aleih ḩi Veru apeummaru.
[ˈlektɪɾɐn sɵɥ ɐˈlɪjç çi ˈveɾʊw aˈpɵwʰm̥ɐɾʊw]
létak-er=an sey aléih ḩi véru apeung-m-aru
man-COLL=COP nothing good REL recompense-GER-do

Arve
Arve is a dialect continuum. The differences in dialects mostly have to do with how it simplified the phonology of Middle Arve: the distinguishing factors are consonant mergers and the handling of the three vowel lengths. It recently developed subject-marking on verbs, and has pervasive noun incorporation. Old Arve was SVO, but all dialects of Arve are now VOS. The dialects have a unified writing system descended from Old Arve -- think Tibetan. All consonant clusters were lost in Middle Arve; overlong length came from vowels preceding most clusters beginning with a resonant. Northern dialects of Arve have a strong stress accent, probably from Kett influence.

Note that voiced and voiceless plosive letters are used (in all inventories here but Gjerdou Arve) to represent an English like fortis-lenis contrast. Gjerdou Arve fricated the fortis plosives.

Inventories:
- Old Arve:
Code:
(p) t  ts k
 b  d     g
       s  x  h
 m  n
 v  l  r  j

i y ɨ u
e ø   o
æ   a


- Rastön Arve:
Code:
p  t  ts tʂ c  k         ʔ
b  d        ɟ  g
      s  ʂ  ç  x  xʷ  χ  h
v  l  r     j     w
      r̥

i  y     u    iə yə uə
      ʊ       
e  ø          eə øə
ʌi œy ʊi ɔu      ɛu
ɛ  ɞ  ʌ  ɔ
      a             ɒə


- Vähkattön Arve:
Code:
p  ts tᵡ tʃ k
b  d     dʒ g
f  ɬ     s  ʃ  χ  h
v  l           ʁ
m  n
   r

i ɨ u
e   o  uo:
ɛ ɜ ɔ
  a

Vowels contrast for length, except for /uo:/, which can only appear long.

- Gjerdou Arve:
Code:
p t ts kʲ k ɢ
f   s  hʲ h χ
  l r  j  w
m n

i ɨ u
e ə o
æ ɑ ɒ

Vowels contrast for length.

Morphosyntactic outline:
Arve sentences consist of a very large verb complex, an object, and a subject, usually in that order. There may or may not be definiteness or weird alignment stuff. Come to think of it, the dialects are probably very grammatically different.

Geographical notes:
Gjerdou is probably a separate island. Arve is spoken in the south of Harue; in fact, 'Harue' is a Kettization of 'Arve'. The culture is decidedly orcish.

Example:
Treis jäntyd dan beigs y bolja veck räch zäuche scheng kors ziggs vörsts ast.
/ʈʂʌi̯s jeə̯r̥ʏ̆h dɐ̆ bʌi̯ç ʏ̆ buə̯jɐ̆ ⱱʌk rɐ̆h tsaxʷɪ̆ çiə̯ʀ kɪ̆ʂɛç ⱱʊʂ ɒə̯ç/
[ˌʈʂʌi̯ˌçeə̯r̥ʏ̆θɐ̆ˌbʌi̯çʏ̆ˌbuə̯jɐ̆ˌⱱʌʈʂɐ̆ˌtsaxʷɪ̆ˌçiə̯ʀɪ̆ˌʂɛçɪ̆ˈⱱʊʂ ɒə̯ç]
IPFV-PL-give-APPL-hat-LOC-red-corner-DAT-large-dog-3S\NEG.PRES-PL-should-PL that
They shouldn't be giving that thing in the red corner to the large dog using the hat.

I'll do the rest later.

Sestmag

Mostly prefixing, strong stress accent, lots of difficult morphophonology, seven vowels. I don't have a whole lot on it.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:42 pm 
Sumerul
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
More language families:

Yia
The Yia family is spoken somewhere along the coast or a river delta, close to N-Hathic and Far Kharidze territory. The proto-language was mildly agglutinative and (C)V (with medial clusters arising from various morphological operations), but almost all Yia subfamilies monosyllabized early on, in different ways. The original Yia stress system involved mostly-predictable penultimate stress; of the five subfamilies, Vengic preserves the original system, Hluic and Zotic regularize to penultimate stress, Narngic shifts to initial stress, and the situation in Whatic is more complicated; it seems that Proto-Whatic developed unstressed vowel apocope during a period of confusion of stress, and later became averse to open syllables and added reduplicative material or /h/ to the ends of some vowel-final words. Some Yia languages (e.g. Zzyxwqnp) are tonal; others aren't.

In most Yia languages, verbs distinguish between their unmarked 'minor' forms and reduplicative 'major' forms. These forms have different meanings in different languages. Major forms are probably lost or lexicalized in Hluic; in Vengic, the major form is the benefactive and the honorific.

Other distinctive sound changes of the varieties are as follows:
* *q usually becomes *ʔ, but it doesn't in [at least] Vynyi. Narngic might preserve it. Maybe Whatic too, in which case the glottal stop comes from somewhere else.
* The Proto-Yia plosive voice distinction is lost (without compensation?) outside Vengic.
* In Proto-Vengic, *ɲ shifted to some sort of unusual sound, perhaps j̃ or a nasalized bunched r. Vʼëng reflects *ɲ as /mj/ in rounded environments and /dr/ otherwise. The unusually conservative Vengic language Vynyi preserves it as /mj/ before *u and /ʁ/ otherwise. This is an early change; it precedes umlaut.
* In Proto-Vengic and Proto-Hluic, final vowels are lost with umlaut: a$i# a$u# > æ ɔ, i$a# u$a# > ɪ ʊ. In Vynyi and Proto-Hluic, these vowels all become schwa. In the rest of Vengic, e${i u} o${i u} raise to ɪ ʊ. Vʼëng merges æ ɔ into e o.
* In Proto-Hluic, *ɲ *dʒ become *r *j, and *s becomes *θ, usually followed by *tʃ > *s.
* Hluic shows post-apocope intervocalic lenition of *t *k to *ð *ɣ. Zotic shows post-apocope intervocalic lenition of *p *t *k to *β *ð *ɣ. Narngic shows intervocalic lenition of *p *t to *b *d.
* Whatic has an unusual chain shift: PY *h becomes PW *w around rounded vowels, and PY *β becomes PW *h. In What (ʔɯhhatn̥), *w becomes *m.
* Vengic and Whatic shift nasal vowels to Vŋ sequences.

Hluic develops articles and frequent verb serialization due to Hathic influence. This might also happen to Vengic, maybe due to Hluic influence. Then agglutination happens.

Proto-Yia
The inventory of Proto-Yia was something like this:
/p t tʃ k q/
/b d dʒ g/
/f s x h/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/β l r (ɣ)/
/a e o i u/
/ã ẽ õ ĩ ũ/

Sample verb conjugations:
Code:
  SG     PL     SG        PL 
1 qoxame qoxamu qoxamxame qoxamxamu
2 nexame nexamu nexamxame nexamxamu
3   xame   xamu   xamxame   xamxamu

  SG    PL      SG        PL
1 qore  qoreu   qorere    qorereu
2 nere  nereu   nerere    nerereu
3   re    reu     rere      rereu


Vʼëng
Inventory:
/p t tʃ k ʔ/
/b d dʒ/
/f s x h/
/m n ŋ/
/β r ɣ gʟ/
/a ɛ ɔ ɪ ʊ i u/

Sample:
Yëʼ e s yah gö ru s vëng mka.
[jɪʔ e sjaɦ ɣʊ ɾu fɪŋ mka]
yëʼ e s=yah gev ru s=vëng mka
world of 3POSS=whole PST have 3POSS=language one
Now the whole world had one language.

ʼA theng gö ʼoc leg, ʼa xë s re e Sinar, ʼa sitsir ga.
[ʔa tɦɛŋ ɣʊ ʔɔʃ gʟɛɣ ʔa xɪ zɾɛ ɛ ˈsinað ʔa sitsið ɣa]
ʼa h-teng gev ʼ-oc le~g, ʼa xë s re e Sinar, ʼa sir~sir ga
then COLL-man PST ADV-east move~MAJ, then find plain of Shinar, then settle~MAJ there
As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

Theng veng zi, "Hë ca vʼa rig, hë ca pʼyuz." Myan rig öng nha, myan dur öng ntë.
[tɦɛŋ βɛŋ dʒi hɪ tʃa ʔβa ɾiɣ hɪ tʃa pʼjuʒ mjan ɾiɣ ʊŋ nɦa mjan duð ʊŋ ntɪ]
h-teng veng zi, hë ca ʼ-va rig, hë ca ʼ-byu~by. mya~my rig öng nha, myan dur öng ntë
COLL-man say REFL, COLL JUSS 1-make brick, COLL JUSS 1-bake~MAJ. use~MAJ brick against rock, use~MAJ tar against mortar
They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.

Zzyxwqnp (a descendant of Vʼëng)
/p t ts tʃ k/
/b d dz dʒ g/
/f s ʃ x h/
/ⁿb~m ⁿd~n ⁿɟ~ɲ/
/w r j/
/a ɒ e ə o i u z̩ v̩/
/ã ɒ̃ ẽ ə̃ õ ĩ ũ/
Tones: high, mid, low, falling
Syllable structure: strict CV

Morphosyntax: i forget

Hlu
see most recent page of my scratchpad

Kharidze
Boring fusional active-stative SOV microfamily, divided cladistically into the AR (Amqoli and Rengni) and D (Deghuri) families, and typologically into Near (Amqoli and Deghuri) and Far (Rengni). Probably spoken in a mountain range somewhere. Looks a lot like Kaam-Yerte, at least phonologically.

Protolang inventory:
/p pʲ t ts tʃ k/
/b bʲ d dz dʒ g/
/m mʲ n ɲ ŋ/
/s ʃ x (h)/
/z ʒ/
/l lʲ r rʲ/
/a e o i u/ and maybe some other vowels idk

Rengni is influenced by some Yia variety or other and develops tone. Amqoli has unpredictable stress. Deghuri, who knows.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:06 pm 
Sumerul
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IIRC Kharidze/Kaam-Yerte sprachbund is prohibited by geography, but on the off chance that it isn't:

* Amqoli develops aspirated stops. This has internal justification (there's a Caucasian-like cluster POA rule influenced by kt- and kp-like clusters becoming kh, Px > Ph, some other stuff after syncope) but could be due to outside influence.
* AR-Kharidze loses PK implosives. D-Kharidze doesn't, but Deghuri can be either a regional mountain language or an unimportant relic, in which case there'd need to be another mountain lingua franca. If Deghuri is important, A probably has implosives in D loanwords.
* A has locative verbalizers that cliticize to noun phrases, tho in modern A you more often get complicated noun phrases being locativized by sticking the verb on a pronoun that refers to them. PK was probably SOV (Rengni might be SVO but A is definitely SOV and D probably is) so this could be cliticization of previous locative verbs. So for "be on the beach" you'd have something like beach=be_on (with whatever verbal morphology). Hathic also has locative verbs, which could do the same thing (if Hathic and Kharidze end up in contact or in the same sprachbund, which they probably don't because Hathic-speakers are Foonesian Vikings; it'd be a Makhachkala Norse scenario at the very least) but are probably like be_on beach and probably don't get turned into morphology except maybe in the branches that develop heavy agglutinativity, like whichever variety of Hathic Ketas is -- of course, agglutinativity could be Hluic influence, but Hathe itself is supposed to be polysynthetic so...

Also, Gehui (Proto-Hathic) has clicks, which are lost in one branch and retained in another. One of these branches is C-Hathic (Cherun/Jedlug) and another is N-Hathic (Ngmwragh) but I forget which / where they are.

Is there any sort of pronoun schema like Mitian here? I notice that Vengic and Kharidze could share a 1/2 = k/n thing. Kett has... what, 1S ne and 2S cey < probably *tsu. Kannow did a rGyalrong and fucked with its pronouns so it can't be fit into anything unless there's some agglutinative stuff. Arve is 1S en and 2S... something like *dih, so Kett and Arve form a sort of Mitian. I forget what happens in Sestmag but I can probably make it fit that as well.

_________________
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:46 pm 
Avisaru
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I have no idea what KY pronouns are except I think the ubghuu 1S starts with k, which is a stable enough sound in the family for it to be ancient. Kangshuic pronouns are complicated: Kangshi has ʁʐâ, from PK *ɣ-raa31, which originally was originally a reflexive (*raa11 meant body at some point) that got turned into the oblique form of the 1S pronoun in Nuclear Kangshuic. Kangshi subsequently lost the direct form, which looks like *sa33 (e.g. White Mountain Kangshi tlhɯ13).

The *ɣ- in the first form surfaces as something marking reflexivity or something similar (it is also a subject versioner in Kangshi, and is an egophoric marker elsewhere) in various languages, and probably continues an older 1S pronoun in *k-. The form *sa33 as a pronoun is a Kangshuic innovation, which might continue a pronominal affix that liberated itself from the verb complex.

I don't think I have any language that isn't Jalvaan that has well-defined non-1S pronouns, so n-forms can be inserted basically anywhere (although if KY had them anciently, they're probably no longer recognizable -- PKY initial non-stops are pretty unstable).

I should write up my languages/families too.

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:19 pm 
Sumerul
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Amqoli has zha, but velar plosives are unstable in Kharidze (Amqoli merges *k *g to /q/ and develops new /k g/ from *kl *gl and maybe *kr *gr clusters); I figure this could come from pre-PK *Rkæ, where R represents some sort of augment that triggers voicing -- of course, I could also have *kæ > *kja and *kj > *j.

...No, that's wrong, Deghuri has ī, which implies *eʁ... or this could go back to something like, um, *éko, which would imply a stressed Deghuri form īgū... but that's still wrong, because pre-Amqoli *ʁ doesn't cause vowel warping; only inherited PK *ʁ does. Another possibility is *éŋ(o); AR ŋ > ʁ... so this could imply an augment *eN- prepended to a Konean (~Mitian) ancient 1SG *ko.

Presumably this means the Kharidze verbal system should be reworked, but it was already the case that the Kharidze verbal system should be reworked. As for Kangshuic *sa33, however, the current Kharidze first-person markers were (unless the gender distinction is an Amqoli/AR innovation) something like *-ts for 1SG.MASC and *-t for 1SG.FEM. I don't know if it's possible to make a connection there; dentals are fairly stable in Kharidze, aside from the Rengni voiced dental chain shift.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:21 pm 
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/me lols at Nort's new nick.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:33 pm 
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Anyway, the most important thing is geography, so:

Hathic spreads across a lot of islands, the largest of which is Hathenai (Hathe: /ɦaˤðənajə/), which should be somewhere very cold. The Foonesians discover Iceland.
Yia is somewhere near a coast, and spreads out onto some islands, like Ketas, where Ketas (position unknown within Hathic) and Gyitha (Hluic) are spoken. Within Yia:
* Vengic contains Vian (an exonym; Vian: /ⁿdẑ̩wɒ̃̀/), the language of the minor empire Zzxzzyx (Vian: /zə̂ⁿdẑ̩/). It may or may not have any insular presence.
* Hluic expands onto some islands, like Gejaehl (Hlu: /ɠeʄæɬ/) and Ketas (Gyitha: /ketas/).
* The position of Zotic is unknown.
* Narngic influences the Kharidze language Rengni. Presumably it is far inland.
* The position of Whatic is unknown, but presumably it is in an isolated backwater somewhere.
Kharidze is spoken by mountain bandits, who require mountains. Rengni is a Kharidze language spoken by mountain bandits who left the mountains and ended up in Narngic territory.
Shit Altaic is another coastal language, probably spoken far away from the aforementioned families. Within Shit Altaic:
* Kannow (/kʷʰannəw/) develops into Enzielu (/ɛnts̪jelu/), the language of the main Civilized Country. Enze is essentially China, so it has similar geographical constraints. It has no insular presence.
* Kett (Insular: /ˌserxes ˈkehtʙ̥/) has two dialects, Insular and Continental. Proto-Kett shares some areal features with Kannow.
* Arve (Raston dialect: /hɛu̯wɪj/) is spoken on the same island as Insular Kett.
* Sestmag (Sestmag: /ɕɕmɒ/) fuck it who cares about Sestmag

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:21 pm 
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Hallow XIII wrote:
I think it is now time to write about the current proceeds of the conference of the society for the exploration of the five springs, by which i mean "yng and me went on irc and talked about congeography and areal features".

Map of the Tsi Empire and Surroundings

The center of our convenient rectangular view is the Malayan Archipelago group of large islands that are mostly ruled by Indonesia the Tsi Empire, a multiethnic maritime empire held together mostly by reeds and regular payment of tributes. To the north is what the Tsi call the Spring of the Dog or the Dog Continent, a continent characterized by a dry and arid climate (at least by Tsi standards), and an abundance of mountains by the coast. To the South and West is a large Eurantartica, which to the Tsi is known primarily via the presence of a civilization that, due to convenient access to ore deposits, has so far both resisted attempts at vassalization and become an indispensable trade partner.

Linguistically, this area is of significant diversity. On the islands, Tsiic (including Cuhbi and Tsi itself) and Kaam-Yerte languages are widely spoken; the Nta river delta and its surroundings are populated mostly with Kangshuic speakers, and the inhabitants of the southern reaches of the Dog Continent speak Kllkic languages, alongside several isolates and smaller families.

With the exception of the Kllkic languages, the languages of this area all share several features. Phonologically, the large majority are tonal, with the usual tone system being a per-syllable pitch distinction with two or three levels. Another pervasive feature is an alveolar-retroflex distinction, as well as relatively large vowel inventories. The Kaam-Yerte and Kangshuic families additionally share with each other a widespread presence of uvular consonants.

Grammatically, there are similarly many common features. As concerns morphology, the languages of the area generally have a medium grade of synthesis on the verb, and relatively little on nouns. Both case marking and person agreement on the verb are uncommon; where person agreement does happen, it it usually in syntactically restricted environments. In Cuhbi, for instance, verbs are marked for topic only in the absence of an overt NP in the sentential topic position. Similarly, Southern Kaam-Yerte languages usually affixally mark only the patient of transitive verbs.

Syntactically, complex predicates of all types are widespread. All language families tend to make heavy use of serial verb constructions; Tsiic languages and Kaam-Yerte languages that have been in heavy contact with them additionally tend to have large inventories of phrasal verbs, thanks to the closed class of true verbs in most Tsiic languages.

It sounds like Hathic and Tsiic are going to be in contact -- Gehui and Tsi are both isolating languages with clicks, large vowel inventories, serial verb constructions, and large inventories of phrasal verbs.

One thing about Hathic, however, is that it doesn't have ditransitive constructions -- to say "A gives B to C", you have to say something like A take B give C. Some concepts that in English would use transitive verbs work the same way: for English "he brought/brings a book", compare Yoruba he took book came and Gehui he take come book. (For this construction, cf. Chinese: tiger bite die PERF Zhang ~ Gehui tiger bite die Zhang "a tiger bit/bites Zhang to death". However, word order isn't as fixed in Gehui as it is in these other languages -- you can say he take book come or tiger bite Zhang die, and there's a same-subject marker , so "a tiger bites Zhang and dies" is tiger bite Zhang die.)

Hathic could maybe have come from Tsalaysia and spread to the islands around Eurantarctica. Since they're Foonesians, this doesn't imply much about the location of (a less shit name than Yia) Macro-Vengic -- MV could be somewhere on the Dog Continent, somewhere on Eurantarctica, a completely different continent (cf. Madagascar), etc. If the Eurantarctican civilization is Hathic and the backstory of my setting is preserved (humans on other planets explained by positing an interstellar empire that completely crashed, with its population relying so heavily on trade that it knocked most of them back to the Stone Age, but there are a few relics of pre-collapse technology, like nanobots with complex ownership-verification structures, which are where magic comes from, and the Hathe have carefully maintained a near-monopoly on nanomagic control), that explains why that civilization has resisted attempts at vassalization.

Anyway. Kharidze has uvulars, but it has a pervasive palatalization contrast and no alveolar-retroflex contrast. In fact, the only languages that have an alveolar-retroflex contrast are Kannow (pervasive) and maybe Gehui (I know there's /ɭ/ but I'm not sure about other retroflexes). Vian used to have this contrast but I decided to merge the retroflexes into the alveolopalatals.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:01 pm 
Avisaru
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I sperged about Kaam-Yerte diachronics on IRC. Have this dump.

Quote:
20:31 < Margaret> uhh fuq how do I make one rhotic out of three
20:31 < Margaret> the nasals too
20:32 < Margaret> option a) merge every palatal sonorant into /j/, then merge alveolars and retroflexes
20:32 < Margaret> option b) ???


Quote:
20:47 < Margaret> oh shit fuck right
20:47 < Margaret> PPKY *q_h
20:48 < Ser> PPKY = pre-Proto-Kangshuic-Yarvinic?
20:48 < Margaret> lol
20:48 < Margaret> I need to make a Yarvinic family
20:48 < Margaret> no pre-Proto-Kaam-Yerte
20:51 < Margaret> uh so let's see
20:51 < Margaret> if I keep q_h in PPKY then presumably PKY has *x
20:52 < Margaret> but I decided against keeping it in whatever fuggen branch ubghuu belongs to
20:52 < Margaret> so what do I do with it
20:52 < Margaret> m/b it's gotten rid of after the palatalization but before retraction
20:52 < Margaret> so x x_j -> h S
20:53 < Margaret> alternatively PKY has *h and h deletes
20:54 < Margaret> so Ubghuu h would be from... ɢʱ
20:54 < Margaret> but then h would always condition low tone
20:54 < Margaret> which is dumb
20:55 < Margaret> the third option is that the deletion of dorsal fricatives is very recent
20:56 < Margaret> but then I would have to somehow get rid of all of Proto-Ubghuu(?) /ç ʝ x ɣ χ ʁ/
20:58 < Margaret> ç ʝ would obviously go to s̻ z̻ but nothing really happens to dorsal stops in ubghuu and just going "lol /x G X R/ merge as /h/" is a bit lazy
20:58 < Margaret> otoh
20:58 < Margaret> x G X R would merge to x X first
20:59 < Margaret> or well actually they would really merge to G R
20:59 < Margaret> and those are q unstable
20:59 < Margaret> R could merge with G\
20:59 < Margaret> and G could delete
20:59 < Margaret> but then I still don't know where I get /h/ from
21:00 < dhok> you could be unoriginal and do some vowel coloring with your back fricatives
21:00 < dhok> before merging/deleting them
21:00 < Margaret> well the merger of voiced and unvoiced fricatives causes a tone split
21:01 < dhok> i c
21:01 < Margaret> which is part of a... somewhat analogous merger of breathy and plain voiced stops
21:01 < Margaret> I hope there is some phonetic feature that could cover both of those


Quote:
21:18 < Margaret> the vowels are also an problem
21:18 < Margaret> the original KY vowel system is something like /i u ɨ ʊ e ə o ɛ ɔ a/ plus length
21:20 < Margaret> there was ATR harmony
21:20 < Margaret> with the two sets being
21:20 < Margaret> /i u e o ə/ and /ɨ ʊ ɛ ɔ a/
21:20 < dhok> i see
21:21 < Margaret> I should probably write that as ɪ
21:21 < Margaret> I didn't originally because only /i/ was supposed to palatalize
21:24 < Margaret> actually at this point
21:24 < Margaret> if the two i's don't behave any differently
21:24 < Margaret> I could just make /i/ transparent to harmony
21:25 < Margaret> except wait they might
21:25 < Margaret> i -> i, ɪ -> e, iː ɪː -> iː
...
21:34 < dhok> margaret
21:35 < dhok> how does the vowel system of PKY change in ubghuu
21:35 < Margaret> the answer is: extremely
21:35 < Margaret> although it doesn't prima facie look like it
21:36 < Margaret> so ubghuu has /i ĩ e ɛ ɛ̃ a ɔ ɔ̃ o u ũ/ plus length and then three tones
21:37 < Margaret> I can't tell you the exact history but
21:37 < Margaret> the abridged version is: i I palatalize preceding consonants
21:38 < Margaret> in words with -ATR harmony, unpalatalized alveolars and velars are retracted to retroflexes and uvulars, respectively
21:38 < Margaret> vowel harmony is lost through various mergers
21:39 < Margaret> so now palatalized and retracted consonants are all fully phonemic
21:39 < Margaret> then you get weird ablauts followed by deletion of certain unstressed vowels
21:39 < Margaret> uh
21:40 < Margaret> somewhere before this there is voicing of consonants between vowels
21:40 < Margaret> so those are now phonemic too
21:41 < Margaret> a pitch accent develops based on the original position of the stress
21:41 < Margaret> and stress falls on... idk where exactly but it's predictable
21:42 < Margaret> this is p much the proto-southern KY stage or whichever is the Big Branch in contact with tsiic
21:42 < Margaret> so now tsiic languages happen, KY generates a bunch of voiced aspirates
21:43 < Margaret> hm actually this might be after PSKY actually
21:44 < Margaret> so w/e from there to ubghuu it's p straightforward
21:44 < Margaret> various consonant distinctions collapse
21:44 < Margaret> causing a further tone split
21:45 < Margaret> word-final segments are deleted
21:45 < Margaret> idk what the time depth on the entire thing [from PPKY] is
21:45 < Margaret> probably 10k or greater

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:18 am 
Avisaru
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alright time to do this nonsense what I have been putting off

Kaam-Yerte

Kaam-Yerte is a middlingly large language family spoken on Tsalaysia and surrounding territories, mostly coterminous with Tsiic speakers. Kaam-Yerte speakers mostly occupy the less fertile inlands, having been displaced from the better lands by the Tsiic speakers. The two families have had strong influence upon each other, Tsiic languages absorbing certain (especially phonological) features from their Kaam-Yerte substrates, and surviving Kaam-Yerte languages in return borrowing words and grammatical constructions from their Tsiic superstrates. An exception are divergent Kaam-Yerte languages spoken near the original homeland, which does not have a large population of Tsiic speakers.

Phonologically, the principal distinguishing characteristics are uvular and retroflex series, aspirated consonants, a more or less pervasive palatalization distinction, tone and a large vowel inventory, most of which features are shared with many Tsiic languages. Some Kaam-Yerte languages have borrowed clicks from Tsiic (perhaps even Hathic?) languages, and a great majority have borrowed breathy voiced stops.

Their most notable lexical feature is a relatively large set of highly specific locative verbs that can be serialised with other verbs to indicate location. For instance, there are words in most Kaam-Yerte languages meaning things like "be in a river", "be in a house", "be on the coast of a body of water" and so on. Many of these verbs are ancient, so that there is no connection, synchronically or diachronically, between a locative verb and the noun word it indicates location in. However, some are more recent, and a few languages retain the ability to derive new locative verbs. The majority of languages in which they are a closed class make use of several different strategies to form new locatives. Some have also mostly lost the locative verbs, using instead another strategy calqued on the local Tsiic language.

The only Kaam-Yerte language that has been thought about in any amount of detail is Ubghuu. Ubghuu is spoken on Risha, and is in heavy contact with the local Cuhbi dialects. There is significant lexical and grammatical influence from Cuhbi, including the shift of the relative form to closely match the Cuhbi conjunct form and the subsequent abandonment of the converbal forms, development of evidentiality clitics and the shift from person marking to egophoricity marking, as well as a greater prominence of aspectual in comparison to modal marking. How widely the original morphosyntactic features of (Old) Ubghuu are spread in KY is unknown, as I don't know about its exact cladistic position within the family.

Qoic

Qoic is a very diverse mountain-based language family, of which at least parts are presumably in contact with Kharidze (but who knows), roughly comparable to Sino-Tibetan if Sinitic were much smaller and Tibetan the most relevant language. The presumably biggest, and only worked-on, branch of Qoic is Kangshuic.

Kangshuic languages are, for the most part, highly tonal, strongly prefixing languages, tones generally attaching to the word rather than the syllable as a unit. Many Kangshuic languages display a strong noun class system. As in other languages of the area, person marking is uncommon on the verb, and mood and aspect are the primary TAM distinctions, tense being almost entirely unknown.

Phonologically, Kangshuic languages, apart from their generally very large amount of tones (Proto-Kangshuic must be reconstructed as having seven), generally also have unusual syllable structures, allowing large clusters in the onset, but no or very few consonants in the coda. Kangshi is a representative Kangshuic language.

A non-Kangshuic Qoic language is the strange Pirka, which is a sister language to the common ancestor of Kangshuic languages.

Other languages that may or may not exist are:
Ntaratu and its relatives, including the highly divergent Nyipa. These are very straightforward SOV languages with a very Tsez-like system of noun cases and the maybe mildly interesting feature that the only contrast in their consonants is one of prenasalization.
Jalvaan, which phonologically is basically Persian, and grammatically some form of shit Graeco-Latin with Kiranti and Dravidian superstrates. This was originally supposed to be the Sumerian in my conworld, but since it is somewhat boring and there ought to be better ways to get writing that probably won't happen.

These languages, if they are a thing, would probably be somewhere else entirely than every other language so far presented.

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R.Rusanov wrote:
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Read all about my excellent conlangs
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Last edited by Hallow XIII on Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:30 am 
Avisaru
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Moistaneous wrote:
Anyway, the most important thing is geography, so:

Hathic spreads across a lot of islands, the largest of which is Hathenai (Hathe: /ɦaˤðənajə/), which should be somewhere very cold. The Foonesians discover Iceland.
Yia is somewhere near a coast, and spreads out onto some islands, like Ketas, where Ketas (position unknown within Hathic) and Gyitha (Hluic) are spoken. Within Yia:
* Vengic contains Vian (an exonym; Vian: /ⁿdẑ̩wɒ̃̀/), the language of the minor empire Zzxzzyx (Vian: /zə̂ⁿdẑ̩/). It may or may not have any insular presence.
* Hluic expands onto some islands, like Gejaehl (Hlu: /ɠeʄæɬ/) and Ketas (Gyitha: /ketas/).
* The position of Zotic is unknown.
* Narngic influences the Kharidze language Rengni. Presumably it is far inland.
* The position of Whatic is unknown, but presumably it is in an isolated backwater somewhere.
Kharidze is spoken by mountain bandits, who require mountains. Rengni is a Kharidze language spoken by mountain bandits who left the mountains and ended up in Narngic territory.
Shit Altaic is another coastal language, probably spoken far away from the aforementioned families. Within Shit Altaic:
* Kannow (/kʷʰannəw/) develops into Enzielu (/ɛnts̪jelu/), the language of the main Civilized Country. Enze is essentially China, so it has similar geographical constraints. It has no insular presence.
* Kett (Insular: /ˌserxes ˈkehtʙ̥/) has two dialects, Insular and Continental. Proto-Kett shares some areal features with Kannow.
* Arve (Raston dialect: /hɛu̯wɪj/) is spoken on the same island as Insular Kett.
* Sestmag (Sestmag: /ɕɕmɒ/) fuck it who cares about Sestmag


i'm going to do yng's langs here as well because they're already glued to mine and who knows where he is, probably burning some government buildings in Llŷn

  • Tsiic is spoken on some islands, where they are the dominant languages. Tsi is the dominantest, and is the administrative language of some sort of Canoe Viking empire what doesn't have metallurgy but writing. A remote branch of Tsiic is Cuhbi, which occupies at least two large islands relatively far from the imperial throne.
  • Kaam-Yerte is the principal language family of the people oppressed by the Canoe Vikings. The Kaam-Yerte language Ubghuu is spoken in the shitty interior highlands of one of the Cuhbi islands.
  • Qoic is shit Sino-Tibetan, and requires a Himalaya to be based in. Some branches of Qoic presumably leave the mountains. Within Qoic, Kangshuic is a big branch, which prominently includes Kangshi, which may or may not be spoken in the mountains. Some parts of the world, especially the Canoe Viking empire of the Tsi, adopt the Kangshi religion of Institutional Tengrism and correspondingly their religious texts.
  • Kllk is a language spoken on the Dog Continent, a frontier to the Tsi.

The geographic arrangement that is in my head is thus the following:
  • Tsalaysia "attaches" to a big continent at a point that is probably somewhat comparable to SE Asia, except if the Himalaya started in Thailand. This is probably the same continent Enze is on, but on the other side.
  • The Thai Himalaya contains Kharidze and Qoic. Kangshi is probably close to Tsalaysia, in the foothills (maybe spreading towards the coast).
  • A shit India could be off to the side of the mountains, containing Yia. Narngic and Rengni could be on the far side of the mountains from Tsalaysia.
  • Hathic and Tsiic meet at some sort of weird New Guinea somewhere, probably.
  • The Dog Continent is hot. It is probably located similarly to Australia relative to the locations of Tsalaysia and Foonesia.
  • Hathenai is an Icedangascar, which is Off Somewhere.

Not at all drawn to scale:
Image

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蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:54 pm 
Sumerul
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Hluic is not a terribly large subfamily, so it doesn't need that much space.

Rengni has a sound change involving knocking stress back to the first syllable, so let's say it's influenced specifically by Narngic. And they share front rounded vowels.

Near Kharidze in contact with Macro-Vengic is an interesting idea. That could be Hluic (tho not Hlu itself) or Zotic, or maybe both. The source of influence would be something in the D subgroup, I think; Amqoli is pretty far into the mountains, and the lingua franca of Kharidzeland, the Zhjumna mountain range (maybe *yujim-ɗá > Deghuri yižinɗə but there should be a final consonant that gets lost in A, which would give -a as the final vowel in D), is Deghuri. This would probably mean more vowels in some Kharidze, and fewer consonant clusters.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:23 pm 
Avisaru
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The Ubghuu Kül Tegin inscription again, with massive Cuhbi calquing. Retconning qâàŋ to mean "come out", as in Cuhbi. Still not sure if I'll keep underlying contour tones. Might also change the spreading rules on the tones.

pɛ́ʔ ʂóó ghɔ̀dáʔehąą ghàb riip ghèɻúúwéhąą wáʁààhį̀į̀yùù dzhɛ́p ŋa oʐúʁààhį̀į̀ yiŋgaluu
pɛ́ʔ
blue
ʂó
sky
gè-
STAT.ALLO-
ɔdáʔ
be_above
-eŋ
-NMLZ
-aa
-COM
gàb
black
riip
earth
gè-
STAT.ALLO-
dúú
be_below
-eŋ
-NMLZ
-aa
-COM
wa-
PASS.ALLO-
qâàŋ
come_out
-ii
-PFV
-uu
-it_is_known
dzɛ́p
mankind
ŋa
TOP
oʂ=
then-
u-
CONJ-
qâàŋ
come_out
-ii
-PFV
i-
ACT.INTR.ALLO-
ŋgal
be_between
-uu
-it_is_known

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Last edited by Hallow XIII on Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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