zompist bboard

WE ARE MOVING - see Ephemera
It is currently Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:42 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:15 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Llundain
Indefinite constituents

Tsi marks indefinite, specific constituents optionally with a preposed mte~mde (inanimate) or mre~mạr (animate). These typically appear in the postverbal space. Consider the following examples:

(1a) nzu bà mte hạnzu
write IN.PRF INDF letter
he wrote (will write) a (specific) letter
he wrote (will write) some (specific) letters

(1b) nzu tsą mte hạnzu
[tt]write AN.IMP INDF letter[/tt]
he was (is, will be) writing a (specific) letter
he was (is, will be) writing some (specific) letters

Although (1a) (as discussed above in the TAM section) is unambiguously specific because it is perfective, without mte (1b) could also be read as generic. mte marks the letter(s) as discourse-relevant ('specific'). Note that although this form is clearly etymologically identical with the postposed numeral mte, it is not restricted to singular constituents, as implied by the plural readings given above.

The plural suffixes -odʰę and also force a specific interpretation onto a newly introduced noun. Note that they too can freely co-occur with the indefinite. Compare the following sentences:

(2a) Ya-dgo tsa mte quuŋ-odʰę
round-mix AN.IMP INDF mud-PL
He mixes some mud
He's mixing some mud

(2b) Ya-dgo tsa quuŋ
round-mix AN.IMP mud
He mixes mud
He's mixing mud

(2c) Ya-quuŋ dgo tsa
round-mud mix AN.IMP
He mixes mud
He's mixing mud

The difference between (2a) and the other two sentences is that in (2a) the mud is specific and probably discourse-relevant. In the other two cases it may be background information or generic. We might propose a hierarchy of backgroundness/genericness from (2a) to (2c), but the exact difference between (2b) and (2c) in most cases is not clear. In any case, this distinction - if it does exist - is largely restricted to direct objects.

_________________
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:22 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
Kangshi should have verb conjugation. I made a table (the asterisk stands for noun class prefixes).

Attachment:
kangshi_conjugation.png
kangshi_conjugation.png [ 19.31 KiB | Viewed 3609 times ]

At present tone on verbs is used for the second person. Covers all of the tones, but functional load is extremely low. Maybe I will go back to using it for TAM ablaut, who knows.

Sample with the new conjugation:

tɤmqɤbstau qxâ bníe btɤʁmâ bɤŋmqɤʐoʁ mzɤpa
tɤ-
REAL-
m-
PL-
qɤ-
cVI-
bstau
bring_forth
q-
cVI-
heaven
b-
cIV-
níe
thing
b-
cIV-
tɤʁmâ
thousand
bɤ-
DAT-
ŋ-
NMLZ-
m-
PL-
qɤ-
cVI-
ʐoʁ
feed
m-
PL
sɤ-
cI-
pa
man


ŋɯi ni mzɤpa ùo bníe bɤŋmdæi ni qxâ
ŋɯi
be
ni-
LOC-
m-
PL-
sɤ-
cI-
pa
man
ùo
none
b-
cIV-
níe
thing
bɤ-
DAT-
ŋ-
NMLZ-
m-
PL-
dæi
return
ni-
LOC-
q-
cVI-
heaven


mɯksi qɤ mɯndò tɤmziekde, sɤsæ ʁmɯqbɯ sɤsæ ʁbiez
m-
PL-
ɯ-
cIII-
ksi
god
and
m-
PL-
ɯ-
cIII-
ndò
spirit
tɤ-
REAL-
m-
PL-
ziekde
know
,
sɤ-
cI-
self
ʁ-
REFL-
mɯqbɯ
weigh
sɤ-
cI-
self
ʁ-
REFL-
biez
think_about

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:06 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
Ubghuu conjunct morphology:

Code:
          E          A
TRA       u-         u-
TRI      (w)ɔɔ-     (w)ɔɔ-
ITR       u-...-aa   u-
STA      hù-...-aa   hò-


Historically, all these affixes derive from the relativizer *u- plus another voice marker. The conjunct dynamic inverse derives from a fusion with the egophoric inverse u-wa-. The two stative conjuncts are similarly somewhat opaque fusions of the relativizer with the voice markers: hò- < u-ɣè- < u-gè-, hù from < *u-ɣi- (> zì-).

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:10 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
Quote:
[00:38:17] <@H13> yng¨
[00:38:24] <@H13> i have an Extremely Good Idea
[00:38:41] <@H13> given that we have established that kidnapping of cuh brides is a thing the ubghuu did or do
[00:38:51] <@H13> there should be a cuhbi-ubghuu mixed language
[00:39:18] <yng> h13: yes
[00:39:20] <yng> sounds excellent
[00:44:05] <@H13> the question is
[00:44:23] <@H13> whether it is a grammar-lexicon split or an N-V split
[00:53:24] <yng> h13: hmm
[00:56:26] <yng> h13: grammar-lexicon i m o


an illustrative example (text translated from here):

dùkka zhéng uunà ci qààb ʔoccujáyi
dùk-a zhéng o-ʁ-∅-n ci-∅ qààb ʔoccu=já=i
wave-OBL flow CONJ-do-IPFV.REAL-APPL.INAN be_with-IPFV.REAL black water=1s=TOP
níwa onyaa sújá sándzàn xákàà
níwa o-nya-t sú=já sán-dzàn xá-∅-kàà
pass_by CONJ-be_far-PERF.REAL head=1s be_low-CAUS drop-IPFV.REAL-1s
inyhyásajáyi kùnnyúna qòngep
inyhyása=já=i kùnnya-úna qò-ngep
Long_Island=1s=TOP silk-like ADJZ-be_beautiful
ràqà uuvà sújá sándzàn xákàà
ràqà o-ʁ-∅ sú=já sán-dzàn xá-∅-kàà
call CONJ-do-IPFV.REAL head=1s be_low-CAUS drop-IPFV.REAL-1s

compare with the ~pure Risha Ubghuu:

dùkkah uzhéng qààb ʔoccìn
dùk-ah u-zhèng qààb ʔoccu-ìn
wave-COM CONJ-flow.REAL black water-TOP
uníwaʔe súnni ʔijisándzàn
u-níwa-ʔe sú-nni ʔiji-sán-dzàn
CONJ-pass_by.REAL-SIM head-1s TR.EGO-be_low.REAL-CAUS
kùnnyúna qòngep inyhyásannìn
kùnnya-úna qò-ngep inyhyása-nni-ìn
silk-like CONJ.STAT-be_beautiful long_island-1s-TOP
uràqàʔe súnni ʔijisándzàn
u-ràqà-ʔe sú-nni ʔiji-sán-dzàn
CONJ-call.REAL-SIM head-1s TR.EGO-be_low.REAL-CAUS

and of course with Long Island Ubghuu:

dùgàà uʐę́ę́ gàb qudz na
dùk-aa u-ʐę́ę́ gàb qudz ŋa
wave-COM REL-flow ʐę́ę́ black water=TOP

unééwye zúk ʔdzizándzaŋ
u-nééw-ye zú=k ʔdzi-zán-dzaŋ
CONJ-pass_by-SIM head-1sPOSS TRANS.EGO-be_low-CAUS

koyóón hòhę̀p ntshááhak ŋa
koy-óón hò-ŋep ntshááh=k ŋa
silk-like CONJ.STAT-beautiful Long_Island-1sPOSS ŋa

uhrààyè zúk ʔdzizándzaŋ
u-hràà-ye zú=k ʔdzi-zán-dzaŋ
CONJ-call-SIM head-1sPOSS TRANS.EGO-be_low-CAUS

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:16 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
Given that both O'on/Proto-Tsiic and (Pre-)Proto-Hathic share several features (classifier constructions, clicks, suprasegmental ~retraction~ on vowels, wacky transitivity, serial verb constructions) it is probably good to ask what the relationship between the two languages is. Morphologically they are quite distinct:

  1. Pre-Proto-Hathic
    *moʔja d|e tẹmi ŋuʔgo lo se ʔguuhụ
    man CLF.SG hit die SWITCH be_at spear
  2. O'on
    *ka room kǃịwa-rạ o-maŋ-de an-ii-bʰo-de hiʁ
    man CLF.SG spear-ABL CONJ-hit-PFV 3s.TOP-DECL-die-PFV REL

    "The man who was hit by the spear and died"

So either we have a genetic relationship, areal effects or close contact. The latter is somewhat unlikely, since the convergence is quite limited. If it is areal, are there any surviving language families from the same area or did they all get displaced?

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:40 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Contact is still possible -- English and French were in contact, but English is mostly devoid of inflection and French is arguably polysynthetic.

It is possible that there was morphology in Pre-Gehui that was lost, especially during monosyllabization.

I'm not sure why the Gehui "classifiers" are glossed that way. I think they are supposed to be articles.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:53 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 859
Location: The Eastern Establishment
Was Middle French arguably polysynthetic? At what point (can we even tell?) did French move from mere clitic-stacking to whatever it is today?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:31 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
Quote:
H13: phay tholɔtshʔuliiyɔq ʐulè, byukhų ŋa!
H13: castrate TRI.ALLO-fuck.REAL-take-PFV=QUOT class[foreign]-three, younger_female_kin=2s TOP
H13: anyway that example sentence above made me remember how nice egophoricity is
H13: because lɔtsh-ʔul [fuck-take] is ESSENTIALLY an active verb meaning “get fucked”
H13: so the egophoric locus is the sister
H13: but the de facto agent are the tsi men
yng: ;)
H13: so you must use the inverse prefix
H13: except the choice is based on the controller so if you want to rub it in that the sister is a whore
H13: you use the active prefix
Whimemsz: nice
H13: THE FINE ART OF UBGHUU INSULTS

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:55 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Llundain
Purpose clauses

As well as the converb construction mentioned above, which expresses 'closely bound' purpose and implies the same subject, Tsi also has two more general constructions for expressing purpose. The more standard one is the fairly conventional use of içç, with or without the postposition ro.

(1) ka maŋ dzo ksù-x içç (ro)
man hit give shut_up-SUB NOM (for)
I hit the man so he'd shut up

The second construction uses the more colloquial optative subordinator :

(2) to-ddòòbh dži mdòt k!a-k!a ççe-ç fò
DIR-copse come wood chop ANIM-SUB NOM
She came to the copse to chop wood

(3) to-ddòòbh mpa-dži mdòt k!a-k!a ççe-ç fò
DIR-copse CAUS-come wood chop ANIM-SUB NOM
He sent her to the copse to chop wood

(4) ka maŋ dzo ksù-x fò
man hit give shut_up-SUB NOM
I hit the man so he'd shut up

_________________
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:22 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Llundain
Yng wrote:
Indefinite constituents

Tsi marks indefinite, specific constituents optionally with a preposed mte~mde (inanimate) or mre~mạr (animate). These typically appear in the postverbal space. Consider the following examples:

(1a) nzu bà mte hạnzu
write IN.PRF INDF letter
he wrote (will write) a (specific) letter
he wrote (will write) some (specific) letters

(1b) nzu tsą mte hạnzu
[tt]write AN.IMP INDF letter[/tt]
he was (is, will be) writing a (specific) letter
he was (is, will be) writing some (specific) letters

Although (1a) (as discussed above in the TAM section) is unambiguously specific because it is perfective, without mte (1b) could also be read as generic. mte marks the letter(s) as discourse-relevant ('specific'). Note that although this form is clearly etymologically identical with the postposed numeral mte, it is not restricted to singular constituents, as implied by the plural readings given above.

The plural suffixes -odʰę and also force a specific interpretation onto a newly introduced noun. Note that they too can freely co-occur with the indefinite. Compare the following sentences:

(2a) Ya-dgo tsa mte quuŋ-odʰę
round-mix AN.IMP INDF mud-PL
He mixes some mud
He's mixing some mud

(2b) Ya-dgo tsa quuŋ
round-mix AN.IMP mud
He mixes mud
He's mixing mud

(2c) Ya-quuŋ dgo tsa
round-mud mix AN.IMP
He mixes mud
He's mixing mud

The difference between (2a) and the other two sentences is that in (2a) the mud is specific and probably discourse-relevant. In the other two cases it may be background information or generic. We might propose a hierarchy of backgroundness/genericness from (2a) to (2c), but the exact difference between (2b) and (2c) in most cases is not clear. In any case, this distinction - if it does exist - is largely restricted to direct objects.


Definiteness and contrast in direct objects

The above post discussing indefinites and generics noted that indefinites appear in postverbal position. Definites, on the other hand, can appear in either the postverbal or the preverbal ('incorporated') position. There is little semantic distinction between the following two sentences, although 1b shows incorporation of the object into the verbal complex, while 1a has it in the postverbal position. Both can be read as either definite or generic depending on context, and both are very common, with incorporation perhaps slightly more frequent especially as discourse draws on.

(1a) Ya-dgo tsa quuŋ
round-mix AN.IMP mud
He mixes (the) mud

(1b) Ya-qquuŋ dgo tsa
round-mud mix AN.IMP
He mixes (the) mud

A third, albeit more colloquial variant also exists, with the shift of the directional prefix rightwards out of the verb complex to attach to a definite object in the postverbal position. This mainly occurs with the more common directional prefixes and is not acceptable with all prefix-verb combinations:

(1c) Dgo tsa ya-qquuŋ
mix AN.IMP round-mud
He mixes (the) mud

Although there is little semantic difference between these three variants as given above, 1b and 1c (which both display incorporation or genericisation of the noun) do not permit any modification of the noun. This is not the case for 1a - a definite object in postverbal position can be modified by adjectives, take plural and honorific marking, etc etc. Compare 2a and 2b - the latter has full incorporation, whereas the former

2a) kǂay-kǂay tsa lʰod srobhạ-tʰ
dance-IT IMP.AN around tent-HON-PL
They are dancing around the tents

2b) srob kǂay-kǂay tsa lʰod
tent dance-IT IMP.AN around
They are dancing around the tent(s)

Only a postposed definite object can be contrastive (in which case it appears with the demonstrative clitic):

2c) kǂay-kǂay tsa lʰod srobhạ-tʰ-rų
dance-IT IMP.AN around tent-HON-PL-DEM
They are dancing around the tents

3a) kahạ-yè džihạ Tsààd-tʰo?
man-HON-which come_from-HON Tsat-DST
Which men came from Tsat?

2c shows incorporation of a locative argument promoted to direct object by the addition of a locative verb. Note that proper nouns can be incorporated, as can substantivised adjectives:

3b) kahạ-yè Tsààd džihạ?
man-HON-which Tsat come_from-HON
Which men came from Tsat?

4) šo-kǂòd k|ʰòò bà
down=red pour IN.PRF
He poured out the red [water]

Note, however, that only one object can be incorporated into the verbal complex. Where a verb has more than one definite direct object, the choice of which to incorporate is typically conditioned by the relative establishedness of the different nouns in discourse. Both of the latter are possible:

5a) to-kǂòd k|ʰòò bà dù sạạq
up=red pour IN.PRF into jug
He poured the red [water] into the jug

5b) to-ssạạq k|ʰòò bà dù kǂòd
up=jug pour IN.PRF into red
He poured the red [water] into the jug

_________________
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:15 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
Nortaneous wrote:
Aaaand redoing the time scale, since I decided writing originates with Miar.

Here's what's set in stone:
* Enzielu is spoken at the same time as Hathe.
* Kett is spoken at roughly the same time as Arve.
* Hathe descends from Gehui.
* Enzielu descends from Kannow.
* Miar is the first language to develop writing. Gehui may or may not have writing, but Ngmwragh definitely does.
* Year zero is 600 years after the Kett expansion of northern Harue -- explain this later.

Enze can play Rome to Harue's Greece, except for the part where it's actually modeled on China. Arve is probably going to have to go extinct. :/

1000BE: Beginning of Kett expansion? (cf. Rome + Roman Greece)
600BE: Kett conquest of northern Harue (this is about equivalent in tech to year zero in our timeline)
0E: Beginning of Enze expansion / unification? (~= Qin)
1000E: Old Enzielu
1400E: presumably something here would happen involving more expansion (~= Ming)
1600E: empire breaks down, western split -- Thalia
2000E: Enzielu proper
2500E: Renzell, presumably -- bunch of shit happens in the interim

so, linguistically:

2000BE: Miar, Gehui
1000BE: Cherun, Ngmwragh
500BE: Kett, Arve
0E: Kannow, work out what Kett would be like at this point
1000E: Old Enzielu
2000E: Enzielu, Hathe

The Vengic languages can go pretty much anywhere since they're spoken on a shitty little peninsula no one cares about.


oh boy, timelines
Things we know:
  1. Cuhbi and Tsi descend from O'on
  2. O'on was spoken around the same time as Gehui or Pre-Gehui
  3. From O'on to its modern descendants requires around 4000 years
  4. At the Present Time (henceforth YP), the Tsi and surrounding peoples are stuck somewhere between the Bronze and Iron Ages
  5. Tsi has writing, which they imported from the Kangshi
  6. Proto-Kaam-Yerte, if that is even a coherent family, was spoken anywhere between 4000 and 10000 years before YP

Things we don't know:
  1. Is there a China to Miar's Sumer or do all Enzian(/Txerian/Megarussian/whatever the continent is called) writing systems ultimately descend from Miar?
  2. The precise order of expansion to the Tsi Archipelago. The Kllkic languages and whatever else is neither Tsiic, Hathic nor KY probably got to the Dog Continent in antediluvian times. For the rest, KY > Tsiic = Hathic, but the details are probably complicated.
  3. Do any Megarussian peoples have contact with any other continents during recorded history? Hathenai could plausibly be some sort of Madagascar.
  4. When and where is Zenzi? It is a natural candidate for being The India if it rises early enough.

The temporal derivation from points 1-5 looks something like this:
> 3000BE: O'on, PPH, PKY
2000BE: Miar, Gehui
1000BE: Cherun, Ngmwragh
500BE: Kett, Arve
0E: Kannow
500E: Inscription Tsi, Old Kangshi
1000E: Old Enzielu, linguistic terminus post quem for YP
2000E: Enzielu, Hathe, terminus ante quem for YP

YP is probably not too long after 1000E, unless the fact that the Hathic expansion is already complete forces it to be later -- alignment between East and West Megarussia is complicated by this. Even accounting for technology differentials between the different regions, this also slows down technological development opportunities: if things proceed in an earthlike fashion, a correspondence of 600BE to 0AD would probably imply that the Emperor at Tsat would have seen imported firearms at least as an exotic good. On the other hand, the planet likely has no fossil fuel reserves, since it was a terraformed colony, so any industrial revolutions are unlikely, unless Juche Wizardry produces one anyway.

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:01 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Zenzi doesn't arise early. Ziwan is about as far out from V'eng as the language of the Qieyun is from Old Chinese. (I'm not sure what the temporal relationship is between V'eng and Hlu. They could be at the same time; V'eng would then be pretty conservative, but that's OK since its branch is.)

If you want an early Macro-Vengic empire, pre-Narngic is a possibility. Probable linguistic influences: strong stress accent, front rounded vowels, a register contrast of some sort or other. [edit: Vynyi is another candidate; it has sort of a Khitan~Mongolic relationship with the rest of Vengic and is probably spoken far away from everything else, which raises the question of how it got there]

In retrospect, there's probably more distance between Kannow and Enzielu, because of the complete collapse of the consonant system. This could be an artifact of expansion, however.

I've been assuming Enzielu went the way of Latin due to events either arising from or setting the political stage for some major technological advance, which would set it after YP.

As for industrial revolutions, you can at least get textile industry automation with water power. Where's our Pawtucket Falls?

What's the history of writing? Miar is ~Sumerian and Kett is ~Old Persian, but how does it get to Kangshi?

What's the relative timeline for Cuhbi, Tsi, and Kllk? Are they all contemporaneous?

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:41 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
Cuhbi, Tsi and Kllk are contemporaneous, yes. Risha Cuhbi and Tsat Tsi are spoken at YP, the *written* dialect of Tsi is significantly older, and probably contemporaneous with... Proto-Western Cuhbi. Cuhbi and Tsi split early; Cuhbi drops clicks first thing in the morning (L-Hathic influence?), whereas Tsi screws with the morphology, but is phonologically very conservative compared to Cuhbi.

There are two options for Kangshi writing. Either the Kangshi invent it themselves after expansion to the lowlands, which would probably set the Kangshi expansion contemporaneous with... Gehui (or earlier; how long have the Han been in the Yellow River valley?). The other option is that Kangshi gets some other form of writing from the other side of the continent. This depends on if there is a silk road -- the climate of most the continent is probably not as conducive to that as the Eurasian steppe is.

A third possibility is that the Tsi have writing independently from the Kangshi, descended from something in the Eastern part and imported via maritime trade routes.

Did you ever poast a history of your conworld?

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 2:16 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
I've been assuming that there's some sort of Eurasian Steppe-like deal. Not *as* conducive to steppe things as the Eurasian Steppe, but there are trade routes and the occasional empire.

Kannow, Arve, etc. are all spoken east of the Very Large Mountains. The vague general history of this region is:

- There is an island, Harue, which is populated by speakers of Arve /hɛuwɪ/, Sestmag /ɕːmɒ/, and similar languages. Possibly this is a Paleosiberian situation and these languages are not in fact related.
- Kett /kɜt̪͡ʙ̥:/-speakers come from the east, probably bringing writing. They settle the top half or so of Harue.
- Over time, they do a sort of Roman-Empire-but-from-Britain deal, establish control of sea trade routes, settle the coasts etc.
- Eventually there is a great deal of war, followed by a Kannow state that's assimilated a lot of Kett culture. Probably there are other states that are gradually mopped up China-style.

The details depend on material, religious etc. history, which remain to be worked out.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:13 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
The K!ek Tbi K!oo, in English The Five Springs, is an influential Tsi work of verse-prose describing the world known to the Tsi and its mythical history. Comprising several thousand lines of verse, its composition spanned the reigns of three Tsi Emperors and elevated its author, N!ʰan Príd, to significant esteem and a comfortable position at the imperial court, much to the chagrin of his detractors, who ridiculed the bad poetic form and the excessively modernizing language used. The personal tastes of the Emperor Bdáát Tạŋ|ọ, a man of greater strength than sophistication, prevailed in the end, however, breaking with the existing norms and ushering in the era of what may be called modern written Tsi.

The work is composed in trochaic trimeter based on syllable weight, with the seventh and final syllable in each verse being neutral. A specialty of Tsi versification is that the trochees are relative -- the "short" syllable in each foot can be long as long as the "long" syllable has a greater weight.

The following lines, describing the Tsi creation myth, are from the very beginning of the work, composed during the late reign of Emperor Bdáát G|ʰaa, the father of Bdáát Tạŋ|ọ and brother of the intervening emperor Bdáát Njọ̀m.

Glory to the family of the Emperor Bdáát G|ʰaa

Bdáát G|ʰaa Ngáád-rų qoo to-mbááŋ
Bdáát G|ʰaa emperor-cVI.PL family up-push

In the twelfth year of his glorious reign
battse baabʰelʰ dò bdʰá ʃaŋ
glorious 12.cIII year sash put_on

"He has worn the Bdha gloriously for twelve years." The Bdha is a ceremonial sash that is worn only by the Emperor and the highest-ranking officials of the tenfold crown. The number 12, as a compound of ten and two, agrees in noun class with .

I begin my investigation of the world and its parts
báálʰ ŋa loŋ-hạạ btoŋ m!áá ptám
world and part=cIII investigate EXH begin

Lo! The sky wooed the sea
Pság t!óó n|úúŋ bzá lę-ŋŋáá-gʰum
lo sky sea once_upon_a_time up_to=teeth=bring

And she bore five brothers
ʃò-tta-zųų tʰó sóŋŋa dʰò
down=baby=spit get_up 5 brother

The brothers grew to men and began to feel jealous
ʃoo dʰò-rǫǫ kà ʃóó yàdʰ rų
grow brother-cVI.PL man yellow feel cVI.PL

And asked of their father and mother their birthright
ptá-n' ŋa dzoo-n' lų pság ma-maaŋ
father-3 with mother-3 inheritance lo INT-ask

The sea and the sky gave to each a property
n|úúŋ t!óó dááŋŋú dʰò-r' k|ʰagąą
sea sky property brother-BEN give_each

The eldest, Gąą Dbé, in his property
Gąą Dbé tbáálʰé dááŋŋú q!ʰąą
Gąą Dbé eldest property cII.SPEC

Made himself a hot land
dʰạạ go báárʰ dzo hunnạ-r' lʰáá-ç
take then hot give self-BEN make-DEP

For he loved the sunshine
naa ro ktááq yeŋąą lę-ptịị-ç
Sun GEN light because up_to-love-DEP

And he made from dust the first dog to be his companion
bráád go dʰạạ-ç k!oo ɢááppʰ-ax ŋóódʰ
dust then take-DEP dog make-DEP companion

Lo! Sri Takʰ, the second
Pság Sri Takʰ ro brellʰé tʰó
Lo! Sri Takʰ cVI.SPEC second get_up

Loved the darkness, and upon his land
kǂạ̀ạ̀mmọ ptịị go dááŋŋú q!ʰąą
Darkness love then property cII.SPEC

Made himself a shady jungle
dʰạạ-ni bʰọ́ọ́ qǀʰum ɢááppʰ-ax dʰą̀ą̀
Take-3 shady jungle make-DEP stand

And he made from mud the first leopard to be his companion
quuŋ go dʰạạ-ç tʰạ ɢááppʰ-ax ŋóódʰ
mud then take-DEP leopard make-DEP companion

The third, De Lu, cleverest of them all
De Lu liiyé onta g|íí-ç
De Lu third clever be-DEP

The translation here is quite free -- the verse, literally, is just "De Lu, the third, who was clever"

Who loved the fruits of both
báárʰ kǃọt kǂạ̀ạ̀m kǃọt ptịị-ç go içç
Hot fruit dark fruit love-DEP then REL

Thus took his inheritance
gondà oqqà dʰạạ-ç go içç
hence land take-DEP then REL

"go içç" is a very useful metrical filler, and the final relativiser carries little semantic information in this verse.

And made of it a land, fertile and temperate
mussʰùù ax'bʰii ɢááppʰ-ax dʰą̀ą̀
fertile temperate make-DEP stand

And he made the first Tsi to be his companion
Tsi 'ndà ɢááppʰ-ax ŋóódʰ nri g|íín
Tsi hence make-DEP companion cVI.POSS be

T|ąą Pʰò, the fourth, loved the wind and the cold
T|ąą Pʰò bʰaaqé sʰị́ị́ç nǃòd ptịị-ç
T|ąą Pʰò fourth wind cold love-DEP

So he raised his land to a great hight

dááŋŋú q!ʰąą go dʰạạ-ç to-mbááŋ
Property cII.SPEC then take-DEP up-push

But lo! Sri Takʰ and Gąą Dbé were jealous
Pság Sri Takʰ ŋa Gąą Dbé tʰó
Lo! Sri Takʰ with Gąą Dbé get_up

So they came upon him by night
ʃóó yàdʰ tʃagʰ tʰó lę-ŋŋǃee go
Yellow feel night get_up up_to-go then

And crushed T|ąą Pʰò’s skull with a stone
T|ąą Pʰò-r' qa-ŋŋǃè cuu-hą-x dʰą̀ą̀
T|ąą Pʰò-BEN apart-head smash-DEROG-DEP stand

They took the land of T|ąą Pʰò
dááŋŋú-r' T|ąą Pʰò gondà q!ʰąą
property-GEN T|ąą Pʰò hence cII.SPEC

And having split it into pieces, Sri Takʰ devoured his corpse
ɢǃònù-x Sri Takʰ cʰẹẹ ed qʰòlʰ
split-DEP Sri Takʰ corpse eat-PFV sit

The verb form ed is historically a perfect, with the -d a suffix. In inscription Tsi the distinction is still maintained in some basic verbs, although in more modern literature the aspect forms are often chosen for metrical convenience rather than semantics.

Rą́ą́ Yop, the youngest, at his brothers’ quarreling
Rą́ą́ Yop rwààbʰé fʰììrkǂę ro
Rą́ą́ Yop youngest quarreling GEN

Felt great sadness

andà kdékk-eç mrạạ 'nnạ ro
Come_from sad-DEP be_strong self BEN

Far away he fled, beyond the sea
wuun 'ndà qǃóŋŋ-ox n|úúŋ bʰị-ç go
Far come_from flee-DEP sea pass-DEP then

And he made nothing in his land
oqqà-r' ạnni aŋŋ' hą lʰáá-qǃʰ
land-GEN 3 in thing make-NEG

But embraced all the mourners

gǂụ̀ụ̀ka fị́ị́ rų tʰiil ọxad
Mourner all cVI.PL chest do-PFV

To share their sadness with him
kdékmo gonn' dzo hunn' d|ʰa mbąą
Sadness hence give self with share

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:58 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin
Great stuff!

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group