Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Dwarvish vowel question)
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Phonology)
I just edited the above post to add consonant romanization. A few notes:
1) I decided to go with < !t !k !l > for the clicks rather than a similar system I've seen, which is < t! k! l! > etc. I felt that the ! before the consonant looks better for some reason. To me, having the ! first says "HEY, THIS IS DIFFERENT!", which indicates the click, and then the following consonant says what the place of articulation is. Also, the syllable structure allows stops in coda, so this clears any ambiguity as to what is a coda or onset.
2) The glottalized clicks are indicated with the same notation as ejectives, even though they are not ejective. Since ejectives & implosives are related to glottalization, this seemed to be a fair representation.
3) I'm debating on whether to use <c> or <ch>.
1) I decided to go with < !t !k !l > for the clicks rather than a similar system I've seen, which is < t! k! l! > etc. I felt that the ! before the consonant looks better for some reason. To me, having the ! first says "HEY, THIS IS DIFFERENT!", which indicates the click, and then the following consonant says what the place of articulation is. Also, the syllable structure allows stops in coda, so this clears any ambiguity as to what is a coda or onset.
2) The glottalized clicks are indicated with the same notation as ejectives, even though they are not ejective. Since ejectives & implosives are related to glottalization, this seemed to be a fair representation.
3) I'm debating on whether to use <c> or <ch>.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Phonology)
<c>. It reduces word length.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Consonant Romanization)
I would go with <c> simply because I prefer <c> over <ch> except when aspiration is indicated, where then I would prefer <ch>.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Consonant Romanization)
I concur. The motion is passed.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Consonant Romanization)
Jinn: Sentence Basics
It took a while, but I now have person & number agreement suffixes so that I can form some simple sentences for Jinn. Even so, the suffixes are temporary. I mentioned at the start of the thread that my primordial languages would be isolating, and that's still true here. However, Jinn will eventually become more agglutinative, and perhaps a bit fusional, so these temp suffixes serve to give me some approximation of where I want the agreement inflections to end up. Also, I don't even have orthography settled yet for the vowel registers, let alone have it figured how the registers will interact as the agreement particles/pronouns attach to the verb and become suffixes. Finally, using suffixes for now will help me show the language structure a little easier.
As with Devani, the vocabulary is also ad hoc and temporary.
Outdated: Word order & agreement
It took a while, but I now have person & number agreement suffixes so that I can form some simple sentences for Jinn. Even so, the suffixes are temporary. I mentioned at the start of the thread that my primordial languages would be isolating, and that's still true here. However, Jinn will eventually become more agglutinative, and perhaps a bit fusional, so these temp suffixes serve to give me some approximation of where I want the agreement inflections to end up. Also, I don't even have orthography settled yet for the vowel registers, let alone have it figured how the registers will interact as the agreement particles/pronouns attach to the verb and become suffixes. Finally, using suffixes for now will help me show the language structure a little easier.
As with Devani, the vocabulary is also ad hoc and temporary.
Outdated: Word order & agreement
More: show
Last edited by Vardelm on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Sentence Basics)
Jinn: Nounlessness
Just like the Salishan languages, it can be argued that Jinn has no nouns. Actually, I realize that may be (or probably is?) a misstatement, and have read some of the arguments against the claim. Suffice to say that I want Jinn to mirror this aspect of the Salishan languages. Words that would usually be considered nouns can be used as a predicate, and are inflected in the same manner same manner as typical verbs and adjectives (stative verbs) would be, even when not in the predicate position. As a predicate, they simply mean "to be an X". So, verbs, adjectives, and nouns simply form one massive, open class of "content words". It probably makes sense to just refer to them all as "substantives".
A quick aside: I'd like to give a quick shout-out to Imralu, whose Ngolu conlang got me interested in Salishan. The seed for Jinn was the idea that it should focus on actions (verbs) as much as possible, primarily by placing them first in word order (VSO) and heavily inflecting them. I had heard of "nounless" languages back in 2009 or so when I was new to the ZBB. I thought that might be something that would be a good option for what would eventually be Primordial Jinn, but had no idea how it worked. Ngolu was a conlang I could make sense of, and from there started looking into Salishan grammars. So, thanks Imralu!
Unlike the Salishan and Wakashan languages (as I understand them), and Ngolu, a verb's "noun" arguments (the agent and patient) do not require a determiner or pronoun to head the "noun" phrase. A pronoun head can be used to head a phrase, but in Jinn they are used for disambiguation rather than as a syntactic requirement. More on this when I actually create Jinn's pronoun system...
Here's an example, very similar to one given when discussing the claim of nounlessness in Salishan languages:
Outdated stuff:
The point here isn't to argue that Jinn or the Salishan & Wakashan languages absolutely do not have nouns never-ever-whatsoever. Rather, it's just to show that Jinn works in a somewhat similar manner. Feel free to argue about nounlessness over on the L&L forum.
Just like the Salishan languages, it can be argued that Jinn has no nouns. Actually, I realize that may be (or probably is?) a misstatement, and have read some of the arguments against the claim. Suffice to say that I want Jinn to mirror this aspect of the Salishan languages. Words that would usually be considered nouns can be used as a predicate, and are inflected in the same manner same manner as typical verbs and adjectives (stative verbs) would be, even when not in the predicate position. As a predicate, they simply mean "to be an X". So, verbs, adjectives, and nouns simply form one massive, open class of "content words". It probably makes sense to just refer to them all as "substantives".
A quick aside: I'd like to give a quick shout-out to Imralu, whose Ngolu conlang got me interested in Salishan. The seed for Jinn was the idea that it should focus on actions (verbs) as much as possible, primarily by placing them first in word order (VSO) and heavily inflecting them. I had heard of "nounless" languages back in 2009 or so when I was new to the ZBB. I thought that might be something that would be a good option for what would eventually be Primordial Jinn, but had no idea how it worked. Ngolu was a conlang I could make sense of, and from there started looking into Salishan grammars. So, thanks Imralu!
Unlike the Salishan and Wakashan languages (as I understand them), and Ngolu, a verb's "noun" arguments (the agent and patient) do not require a determiner or pronoun to head the "noun" phrase. A pronoun head can be used to head a phrase, but in Jinn they are used for disambiguation rather than as a syntactic requirement. More on this when I actually create Jinn's pronoun system...
Here's an example, very similar to one given when discussing the claim of nounlessness in Salishan languages:
- kandahu q'alab
kanda-hu is.going-A3S q'alab is.a.dog
The dog is going.
Outdated stuff:
More: show
Last edited by Vardelm on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Sentence Basics)
Last edited by Vardelm on Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Head Marking Adjectives
Dwarvish: Phonology
I added romanization to the tables of consonants & vowels here.
Syllables
The syllable cannon is the following:
Stress
Stress generally falls on the first syllable of a word, but is sensitive to syllable weight. Closed syllables are more likely to be stressed, as are syllables that have more consonants in them. Stress is never on the final syllable of a word.
I added romanization to the tables of consonants & vowels here.
Syllables
The syllable cannon is the following:
- (C)(C)CV(C)(C)(C)
- approximants
- nasals
- fricatives, affricates, and most stops
- glottal stop
Stress
Stress generally falls on the first syllable of a word, but is sensitive to syllable weight. Closed syllables are more likely to be stressed, as are syllables that have more consonants in them. Stress is never on the final syllable of a word.
Last edited by Vardelm on Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
- KathTheDragon
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Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Head Marking Adjectives
Vardelm wrote:syllable cannon
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Dwarvish Syllable Cannon)
BOOM!!! Nice.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Sentence Basics)
Hiya!Vardelm wrote:A quick aside: I'd like to give a quick shout-out to Imralu,
A newer link is to the Iliaqu page. I was revising stuff and wanted to keep both around so I could refer to the old version and I don't think I ever got right through the revision and never got around to taking down the Ngolu site. I decided to scrap the gender system I had and go with something I call accessibility, although, yeah, that has no effect on the over-all structure of the language as it's relevant to your purposes.Vardelm wrote:whose Ngolu conlang got me interested in Salishan.
Onto Jinn! Looks interesting!
I think, if I were learning this, having the ezafe-style suffixes be the same as for the predicate would lead to some confusion. Turkish has copula suffixes and possessor suffixes which can, at times be identical and this gave me headaches for a while. For example, the "I am suffix" -(y)4m and the "my" suffix -(4)m are identical after a consonant. (4 represents the four way vowel harmony of high vowels, harmonising for frontness and rounding). For example "evim" in writing could theoretically mean "I am a house" or "my house", although in speech, word stress would keep these apart.
I'm guessing word order needs to be fairly strict in Jinn so that things are not accidentally interpreted as filling another role.
In any case, since the unmarked form of a word can be used as the head of an argument and needs to be marked to be used in the predicate, to me, this looks more like a verbless language, where q'alab means "dog", kanda means "goer" and the endings that appear on the predicate are akin to a copula. Of course, these are just two different interpretations of the same system, but since the unmarked form of the words is more argumenty and needs something to be used in the predicate, then I'd find it more logical to think of them as more-or-less nouns.
I've glossed these sentences as if the content words were nouns.
kanda-hu q'alab
goer-COP.A.3s dog
"The dog goes."
q'alab-ya kanda
dog-COP.S.3s goer
"The going one is a dog."
I don't know how well this holds up when one gets into the deeper grammar though.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC
________
MY MUSIC
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Dwarvish Syllable Cannon)
Thanks for the reply! I'll get back to this in a few days when I'm back from vacation and have a full PC.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jinn Sentence Basics)
Nice! The accessibility feature is a really interesting twist on honorifics.Imralu wrote:A newer link is to the Iliaqu page. I was revising stuff and wanted to keep both around so I could refer to the old version and I don't think I ever got right through the revision and never got around to taking down the Ngolu site. I decided to scrap the gender system I had and go with something I call accessibility, although, yeah, that has no effect on the over-all structure of the language as it's relevant to your purposes.
Thanks! I'm liking it so far, but it still needs some development.Imralu wrote:Onto Jinn! Looks interesting!
I can understand that point. Hopefully it's not so much confusion that it ends up killing the idea.Imralu wrote:I think, if I were learning this, having the ezafe-style suffixes be the same as for the predicate would lead to some confusion. Turkish has copula suffixes and possessor suffixes which can, at times be identical and this gave me headaches for a while. For example, the "I am suffix" -(y)4m and the "my" suffix -(4)m are identical after a consonant. (4 represents the four way vowel harmony of high vowels, harmonising for frontness and rounding). For example "evim" in writing could theoretically mean "I am a house" or "my house", although in speech, word stress would keep these apart.
I've been trying to work on pronouns & demonstratives for Jinn, but my creativity on that front has been pretty anemic. I think a write-up on pronouns might help clarify this a bit. Essentially, I envision the possessor usage as an abbreviation of a transitive verb "to own/possess". We'll see how well it actually works out, though.
Yes. Jinn and Devani are strict about word order, while Dwarvish & Elvish will be much less so.Imralu wrote:I'm guessing word order needs to be fairly strict in Jinn so that things are not accidentally interpreted as filling another role.
I think (and hope!) that the pronoun post, plus any posts on tense, aspect, & voice will make the "verbiness" of content words more apparent. Pronouns will be able to be used as the head of an argument and modified by a verb/content word in the same manner as Ngolu/Iliaqu, with the difference being that in Jinn constructions with pronouns are not required or standard, and are used primarily for disambiguation. When a verb/content word modifies a pronoun, it won't have the ezafe-style suffixes. Impersonal verbs ("it's raining") will also lack the suffixes. Finally, all content words will be able to inflect for tense, aspect, voice, etc., even when used as arguments, so there will be 1 word arguments that translate as "he/she/it/that which was a warrior". As above, when I get all this written down, we'll see how coherent the system is. Feedback will be very welcome!Imralu wrote:In any case, since the unmarked form of a word can be used as the head of an argument and needs to be marked to be used in the predicate, to me, this looks more like a verbless language, where q'alab means "dog", kanda means "goer" and the endings that appear on the predicate are akin to a copula. Of course, these are just two different interpretations of the same system, but since the unmarked form of the words is more argumenty and needs something to be used in the predicate, then I'd find it more logical to think of them as more-or-less nouns.
As an aside to this, Ngolu/Iliaqu seems to lean towards dependent marking due to the use of cases on the nominals (pronouns) and lack of agreement affixes on the predicate verb. If you were to make Ngolu/Iliaqu to be head-marking, what would that look like? Would it still make sense to describe content words as "verbs"?
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Dwarvish Syllable Cannon)
Having a conlanging writer's block lately, mostly due to a lack of creative ideas for pronouns in Jinn. Bleh.
Mostly bumping to make sure I don't lose the info in the thread.
Mostly bumping to make sure I don't lose the info in the thread.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Dwarvish Syllable Cannon)
This should be moved into the permanent C&C forum.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Dwarvish Syllable Cannon)
Been quite a while since I posted in this thread! I've done a major rework on Jin, and I just need to work out some details on how tone is used before posting a bunch on that.
I'm also looking at revamping Devani, and I'm considering an Indic/Dravidian phonology like this:
I don't love the orthography, in particular <tt dd> for the dental stops. I don't want to use <t' d'> since those indicate ejectives (and Jin will neighbor this language). Using <tr dr> for the retroflex series is out since those will be allowable onset clusters. Any suggestions without resorting to something clumsy like SAMBA with <t_d d_d>?
I'm considering removing the dental/alveolar distinction, other than keeping /θ ð/. Another possibility is adding /z ʑ/, so I'm still playing around with this a bit. What I'm aiming for is something of a pan-Indian phonology with a few little features to make it slightly different.
I'm also looking at revamping Devani, and I'm considering an Indic/Dravidian phonology like this:
Code: Select all
/ p b t̪ d̪ t d ʈ ɖ k g /
/ tɕ dʒ /
/ θ s ɕ h /
/ ʋ ð l ɭ j /
/ ɾ /
/ m n̪ ɳ /
Code: Select all
< p b tt dd t d ŧ đ k g >
< ch j >
< th s sh ɦ >
< ʋ dh l ɭ y >
< ɾ >
< m n ň >
I'm considering removing the dental/alveolar distinction, other than keeping /θ ð/. Another possibility is adding /z ʑ/, so I'm still playing around with this a bit. What I'm aiming for is something of a pan-Indian phonology with a few little features to make it slightly different.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Devani orthography question)
Plenty of over time at work, studying & taking the GRE test, and applying to grad school has contributed to my typical glacial pace of conlanging. I'm going to just post some of the updates I made to Jin with the idea that writing some of the posts might help me develop things a bit further.
Jin: Consonant Inventory Updates
Consonants are mostly the same as before, but the alveolar affricate series is gone and orthography on palatal clicks uses <c>.
Consonants
[/size]
[/size]
Notes:
Jin: Consonant Inventory Updates
Consonants are mostly the same as before, but the alveolar affricate series is gone and orthography on palatal clicks uses <c>.
Consonants
Code: Select all
/ ǀ ǀˀ ǁ ǁˀ ǂ ǂˀ /
/ nǀ nǀˀ nǁ nǁˀ nǂ nǂˀ /
/ p b t d t’ k g k’ q q’ /
/ mp mb nt nd nt’ ŋk ŋg ŋk’ ɴq ɴq’ /
/ tʃ dʒ tʃ’ /
/ ɲtʃ ɲdʒ ɲtʃ’ /
/ s z ʃ ʒ h /
/ ns nz ɲʃ ɲʒ /
/ m n ɲ /
/ l j w /
Code: Select all
< !t !t’ !l !l’ !c !c’ >
< !nt !nt’ !nl !nl’ !nc !nc’ >
< p b t d t’ k g k’ q q’ >
< mp mb nt nd nt’ ñk ñg ñk’ ñq ñq’ >
< c j c’ >
< ñc ñj ñc’ >
< s z sh zh h >
< ns nz ñsh ñzh >
< m n ñ >
< l y w >
Notes:
- Glottalized oral clicks pattern as ejectives, while nasal clicks are parallel to pre-nasalized consonants.
- /h/ in coda is often realized as /ħ/ or /ʕ/.
- /w/ in coda is realized as /β/.
Last edited by Vardelm on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Devani orthography question)
Jin: Vowels & Tone Registers
Vowels
[/size]
Tone Registers
Jin's vowels are subject to registers consisting of pitch/tone and phonation. The tones and phonations are:
[/size]
Notes:
For my own sanity, I made a chart for typing the vowels w/ alt codes so I didn't have to constantly look it up on the Windows character map.
[/size]
Vowels
Code: Select all
Front: Mid: Back:
Close: / i / / u /
Open: / a /
Tone Registers
Jin's vowels are subject to registers consisting of pitch/tone and phonation. The tones and phonations are:
- Tones: low, high
- Phonations: modal, murmured/breathy, creaky
Code: Select all
Tone Register Abbreviation Orthography Tone + Phonation
High H < î â û > high tone, murmured phonation
Raised R < í á ú > high tone, modal
Middle (default) M < i a u > low tone, modal
Low L < ï ä ü > low tone, creaky phonation
Notes:
- Raised & high tones rise at the start of a sentence.
- Low tone falls at the start of a sentence.
For my own sanity, I made a chart for typing the vowels w/ alt codes so I didn't have to constantly look it up on the Windows character map.
Code: Select all
i a u
--------------------------------------
High î â û
alt+0238 alt+0226 alt+0251
Raised í á ú
alt+0237 alt+0225 alt+0250
Middle i a u
Low ï ä ü
alt+0239 alt+0228 alt+0252
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jin updates)
Jin: Syllable Structure
Technically, Jin's syllable structure can be seen as (C)V(V)(C). In practice, it's mostly CV, and there are no consonant clusters in onsets or codas.
Initial syllables can omit the onset consonant.
Final syllables of a word can have a coda consonant, and the "linker" prepositional clitic al- also has a coda consonant.
Onsets: All consonants are allowed as onsets.
Codas: Clicks are not allowed in coda.
All syllables will have only 1 vowel quality (i, a, or u), and most will have 1 register. Words of 1 syllable may have a contour of 2 registers, depending on tense. The orthography for this is just 2 of the same vowel with different diacritics, such as <âa>, <üú>, etc.
Technically, Jin's syllable structure can be seen as (C)V(V)(C). In practice, it's mostly CV, and there are no consonant clusters in onsets or codas.
Initial syllables can omit the onset consonant.
Final syllables of a word can have a coda consonant, and the "linker" prepositional clitic al- also has a coda consonant.
Onsets: All consonants are allowed as onsets.
Codas: Clicks are not allowed in coda.
All syllables will have only 1 vowel quality (i, a, or u), and most will have 1 register. Words of 1 syllable may have a contour of 2 registers, depending on tense. The orthography for this is just 2 of the same vowel with different diacritics, such as <âa>, <üú>, etc.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jin updates)
Jin: Glossing Abbreviations
Personal Pronouns
1SA = 1st person singular active
1SS = 1st person singular stative
1PA = 1st person plural active
1PS = 1st person plural stative
2PA = 2nd person active
2PS = 2nd person stative
3PA = 3rd person active
3PS = 3rd person stative
NDA = near demonstrative active
NDS = near demonstrative stative
DDA = distant demonstrative active
DDS = distant demonstrative stative
Relative Pronouns
1RA = 1st person relative active
1RS = 1st person relative stative
2RA = 2nd person relative active
2RS = 2nd person relative stative
3RA = 3rd person relative active
3RS = 3rd person relative stative
NRA = near (demonstrative) relative active
NRS = near (demonstrative) relative stative
DRA = distant (demonstrative) relative active
DRS = distant (demonstrative) relative stative
Number / Definiteness / Specificity
SNG = singulative
Tenses
TDP = tense: (episodic) distant past
TNP = tense: (episodic) near past
TEN = tense: episodic now (present)
TNF = tense: (episodic) near future
TDF = tense: (episodic) distant future
TGP = tense: gnomic past
TGN = tense: gnomic now (present)
TGF = tense: gnomic future
Voices
VIA = voice: intransitive active
VIS = voice: intransitive stative
VTA = voice: transitive active
VTS = voice: transitive stative
VPA = voice: passive active
VPS = voice: passive stative
VAA = voice: antipassive active
VAS = voice: antipassive stative
VRA = voice: reflexive active
VRS = voice: reflexive stative
VCA = voice: reciprocal active
VCS = voice: reciprocal stative
VMA = voice: impersonal active
VMS = voice: impersonal stative
Miscellaneous
LNK = linker / genitive
Personal Pronouns
1SA = 1st person singular active
1SS = 1st person singular stative
1PA = 1st person plural active
1PS = 1st person plural stative
2PA = 2nd person active
2PS = 2nd person stative
3PA = 3rd person active
3PS = 3rd person stative
NDA = near demonstrative active
NDS = near demonstrative stative
DDA = distant demonstrative active
DDS = distant demonstrative stative
Relative Pronouns
1RA = 1st person relative active
1RS = 1st person relative stative
2RA = 2nd person relative active
2RS = 2nd person relative stative
3RA = 3rd person relative active
3RS = 3rd person relative stative
NRA = near (demonstrative) relative active
NRS = near (demonstrative) relative stative
DRA = distant (demonstrative) relative active
DRS = distant (demonstrative) relative stative
Number / Definiteness / Specificity
SNG = singulative
Tenses
TDP = tense: (episodic) distant past
TNP = tense: (episodic) near past
TEN = tense: episodic now (present)
TNF = tense: (episodic) near future
TDF = tense: (episodic) distant future
TGP = tense: gnomic past
TGN = tense: gnomic now (present)
TGF = tense: gnomic future
Voices
VIA = voice: intransitive active
VIS = voice: intransitive stative
VTA = voice: transitive active
VTS = voice: transitive stative
VPA = voice: passive active
VPS = voice: passive stative
VAA = voice: antipassive active
VAS = voice: antipassive stative
VRA = voice: reflexive active
VRS = voice: reflexive stative
VCA = voice: reciprocal active
VCS = voice: reciprocal stative
VMA = voice: impersonal active
VMS = voice: impersonal stative
Miscellaneous
LNK = linker / genitive
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jin updates)
Jin: Basic Syntax
Word Classes
Jin has the following word classes:
Content words ( “verbs” )
Word Order
From the viewpoint of a typical grammar, word order in Jin would be mostly described as VS intransitive and VSO transitive.
However, Jin does not link topicality and agency for the notion of “subject”. Active verbs consider the active argument to be the subject, while stative verbs see the stative argument as the subject. Word order thus depends on whether the head verb is active or stative. The arguments are then ordered as depending on whether they are seen as an active or stative participant.
The "active" and "stative" arguments for the head verb are technically always pronouns, but they can be omitted given the right circumstances. This will be discussed later.
Example sentences:
Intransitive Active Verb:
Transitive Active Verb:
Intransitive Stative Verb:
Transitive Stative Verb:
Word Classes
Jin has the following word classes:
Content words ( “verbs” )
- Content words identify events, qualities, and objects.
- The line between verbs and nouns in Jin is very fine, if not non-existent.
- This grammar refers to content words as “verbs” since they all can be used for predication, describe pronoun arguments as subordinate phrases, and are inflected like verbs of other languages
- Verbs (content words) are either active (describing what a subject is doing) or stative (describing a condition or quality of a subject).
- Jin pronouns are like pronouns of any language.
- They act as arguments for verbs.
- Pronouns are active or stative.
- Pronouns controls whether an argument phrase is active or stative, as required by the head verb of that clause.
- There is only one preposition, al-, which is cliticised to another word.
- It introduces oblique phrases and genitive relationships.
- The term “particles” here refers to a range of function words.
- This includes conjunctions, interjections, expletives, etc.
- Particles never inflect and are not attached to other words (like the preposition al-).
- They convey grammatical information and help direct the course of speech.
Word Order
From the viewpoint of a typical grammar, word order in Jin would be mostly described as VS intransitive and VSO transitive.
However, Jin does not link topicality and agency for the notion of “subject”. Active verbs consider the active argument to be the subject, while stative verbs see the stative argument as the subject. Word order thus depends on whether the head verb is active or stative. The arguments are then ordered as depending on whether they are seen as an active or stative participant.
The "active" and "stative" arguments for the head verb are technically always pronouns, but they can be omitted given the right circumstances. This will be discussed later.
Code: Select all
Head Verb Word Order
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
active intransitive = Verb - Active
active transitive = Verb - Active - Stative
stative intransitive = Verb - Stative
stative transitive = Verb - Stative - Active
Example sentences:
Intransitive Active Verb:
- [g=move]
VERB
[/g] [g=1SA]
kándaACTIVE
[/g]
t'inaya
I moved.
Transitive Active Verb:
- [g=rode]
VERB
[/g] [g=2PA]
úgishänACTIVE
[/g] [g=3PS]
saqûmbuSTATIVE
[/g]
jida
You rode it.
Intransitive Stative Verb:
- [g=happy]
VERB
[/g] [g=1SS]
mbuláhSTATIVE
[/g]
t'anji
I am happy.
Transitive Stative Verb:
- [g=behind]
VERB
[/g] [g=3PS]
dambikSTATIVE
[/g] [g=2PA]
jidaACTIVE
[/g]
saqûmbu
It is behind you.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jin updates)
Jin: Pronouns
Jin has the personal & demonstrative pronouns listed below. I haven't done other types yet (indefinite, interrogative, etc.). I also need to do another pass at some point and add vowel registers to the vowels of the pronouns. That is just an arbitrary, aesthetic choice though.
Pronouns:
Notes:
Jin has the personal & demonstrative pronouns listed below. I haven't done other types yet (indefinite, interrogative, etc.). I also need to do another pass at some point and add vowel registers to the vowels of the pronouns. That is just an arbitrary, aesthetic choice though.
Pronouns:
Code: Select all
active stative
independant relative independant relative
--------------------------------------------------------------
1st Singular t’inaya t’aya t’anji t’i
1st Plural t’ana t’a t’anjin t’an
2nd saqûmbu sambu sundiwa siwa
3rd qasim qam jida ja
Proximal mbundi mbi mbiwa mba
Distal !ntandi !nti !ntiwa !nta
- Only 1st person makes a distinction in singular vs. plural
- Independent pronouns are the heads of verb arguments
- Relative pronouns allow arguments to have additional subordinate phrases (more about subordination below)
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jin updates)
Jin: Subordination (or Apposition?)
Subordination
Clause subordination plays an important role in conveying information in Jin because there is only one class of content words: “verbs”. There are 2 types, which are independant and dependant subordination, although they behave pretty much the same way.
Personal and demonstrative pronouns (both independent and relative) allow a verb to follow them, which adds more description to the argument. The verb can be viewed as a subordinate clause or as just apposition.
Subordination with Relative Pronouns
If further description beyond the one verb licensed by an independent pronoun is needed for the argument, a relative pronoun can be added to the sentence. An additional verb follows the relative pronoun as well, since relative pronouns can have subordinate verbs just like independent pronouns. Relative pronouns actually require a verb to follow them. The relative pronoun must be of the same person, number, and state as its antecedent, independent pronoun.
Note that subordinate verbs do not need to match their head pronoun as to whether they are active or stative. A pronoun is required to be active or stative by its head verb, not by subordinate verbs. Thus qam is active to match qasim, but sambi is a stative verb (the state of being a boy).
Subordination
Clause subordination plays an important role in conveying information in Jin because there is only one class of content words: “verbs”. There are 2 types, which are independant and dependant subordination, although they behave pretty much the same way.
Personal and demonstrative pronouns (both independent and relative) allow a verb to follow them, which adds more description to the argument. The verb can be viewed as a subordinate clause or as just apposition.
mbibuch’ad running.away qasim 3PA
He is running away!
mbibuch’ad running.away qasim 3PA mizhuliq stole-thieved
He that stole/thieved is running away!
He, the thief, is running away!
The thief is running away!
Subordination with Relative Pronouns
If further description beyond the one verb licensed by an independent pronoun is needed for the argument, a relative pronoun can be added to the sentence. An additional verb follows the relative pronoun as well, since relative pronouns can have subordinate verbs just like independent pronouns. Relative pronouns actually require a verb to follow them. The relative pronoun must be of the same person, number, and state as its antecedent, independent pronoun.
mbibuch’ad running.away qasim 3PA mizhuliq stole-thieved qam 3RS sambi boy
He that thieves that is a boy is running away!
He, the thief, a boy, is running away!
The boy thief is running away!
Note that subordinate verbs do not need to match their head pronoun as to whether they are active or stative. A pronoun is required to be active or stative by its head verb, not by subordinate verbs. Thus qam is active to match qasim, but sambi is a stative verb (the state of being a boy).
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jin updates)
Jin: Dropping Pronouns
Using independent pronouns to head every verb argument, and then adding dependant pronouns for every relative clause is technically correct, but becomes tedious & isn’t always needed for understanding. Both independent and dependent pronouns can be dropped as long as there is a content to act as an argument and the meaning can be deduced via context. From the previous example:
Independant pronouns can be kept to help disambiguate which arguments are active or stative. Take the below example:
Using independent pronouns to head every verb argument, and then adding dependant pronouns for every relative clause is technically correct, but becomes tedious & isn’t always needed for understanding. Both independent and dependent pronouns can be dropped as long as there is a content to act as an argument and the meaning can be deduced via context. From the previous example:
mbibuch’ad running.away qasim 3PA mizhuliq stole-thieved qam 3RS sambi boy
He that thieves that is a boy is running away!
The boy thief is running away!
mbibuch’ad running.away mizhuliq stole-thieved sambi boy
The boy thief is running away!
Independant pronouns can be kept to help disambiguate which arguments are active or stative. Take the below example:
uhimbanza trip naganda merchant dambik behind saqûmbu 2PA ndalu man mizhuliq stole-thieved
- The merchant behind you that is a man tripped the thief.
- The merchant behind you tripped the man that is a thief.
uhimbanza trip naganda merchant dambik behind saqûmbu 2PA ndalu man jida 3PS mizhuliq stole-thieved
The merchant behind you that is a man tripped the thief.
uhimbanza trip naganda merchant dambik behind saqûmbu 2PA jida 3PS ndalu man mizhuliq stole-thieved
The merchant behind you tripped the man that is a thief.
- Qasim (active 3rd person) is not used for the active argument (nagana "merchant") since the verb requires the 1st argument to be active, and nagana "merchant" is that 1st argument.
- No dependant pronoun is used with for dambik "behind" since it is still describing the 1st argument
- The stative 3rd person pronoun jida “bumps” the sentence back up to the stative argument for the main predicate verb, uhimbanza "trip".
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Re: Primordial Scratchpad (NP: Jin updates)
Jin: Voice pt 1
I realized after I posted about using Persian ezafe style suffixes that I wanted Jin to not be head-marked, and to not have person-marking on the verbs. That's just because my eventual "elvish" conlang needs to be head-marking and have person/number/gender marking, and I'm making these as opposites. That is, there are certain features of each language that are core, and so the "opposite" language will not have those. Elvish will have person agreement; Jin won't. Jin will have morphological tense & aspect; Elvish won't. Elvish will be suffixing, while Jin is primarily prefixing. So, goodbye ezafe suffixes!
In its place, I wanted suffixes that would control what argument were required by the verb, and so Jin's voice system came out of that.
Voice
Voice controls the transitivity, valency, and diathesis of verbs. This plays a major role in the structure of sentences.
The voices in Jin are:
Verbs all have a default voice.
Summary of the Voices
Active Intransitive
I realized after I posted about using Persian ezafe style suffixes that I wanted Jin to not be head-marked, and to not have person-marking on the verbs. That's just because my eventual "elvish" conlang needs to be head-marking and have person/number/gender marking, and I'm making these as opposites. That is, there are certain features of each language that are core, and so the "opposite" language will not have those. Elvish will have person agreement; Jin won't. Jin will have morphological tense & aspect; Elvish won't. Elvish will be suffixing, while Jin is primarily prefixing. So, goodbye ezafe suffixes!
In its place, I wanted suffixes that would control what argument were required by the verb, and so Jin's voice system came out of that.
Voice
Voice controls the transitivity, valency, and diathesis of verbs. This plays a major role in the structure of sentences.
The voices in Jin are:
- intransitive
- transitive
- passive
- antipassive
- reflexive
- reciprocal
- impersonal
Verbs all have a default voice.
- A verb’s default voice is one of the voices listed above.
- Most (all?) default voices are intransitive or transitive.
- No voice suffix is added for a verb in default voice.
- This converts the verb from it’s default voice to the voice marked by the suffix.
- A voice suffix can often add an dynamic, volitional, causative, etc. dimension.
- The voice suffix that is the same voice as the verb’s default voice can be added specifically to change to a dynamic, volitional, causative, etc. meaning, while keeping the same transitivity & valency.
- The dynamic, volitional, causative, etc. meanings added by the voice suffixes are not consistent for each suffix. It all depends on the verb.
- Not all voice suffixes are used with every verb.
Summary of the Voices
Active Intransitive
- The active intransitive voice requires 1 active argument.
- Active intransitive verbs are (usually?) unergative.
- They are often verbs of motion or other activity that are not directed towards an object.
- Active intransitive verbs do not mention if there is a stative patient, and do not imply such.
- They can be seen as an “anti-middle” voice, where an agent is performing an action on an object, but the object is not specified or even implied.
- The stative intransitive voice requires 1 stative argument.
- Active intransitive verbs are (usually?) unaccusative.
- Nouns, adjectives, and adverbs of other languages are often stative intransitive verbs in Jin.
- These verbs do not mention or consider if there is an active agent, and do not imply it.
- Depending on the root verb, stative intransitive verbs can used as a middle voice or a resulative.
- Require 2 arguments: 1 active and 1 stative
- The active transitive has word order Verb - Active - Stative.
- The active transitive describes what the active argument is doing to the stative argument.
- Active transitives are proto-typical transitive verbs.
- Require 2 arguments: 1 active and 1 stative
- The stative transitive has word order Verb - Stative - Active.
- Stative transitive verbs define some relationship between the arguments.
- They are often emotions, perceptions, or locatives.
- The active passive requires 1 stative argument.
- This voice indicates there is an active constituent (agent) involved, although it’s left unstated.
- The stative passive requires 1 stative argument.
- This voice indicates there is an active constituent (stimulus, location, etc.) involved, although it’s left unstated.
- This voice can seem odd since it’s arguments are often treated as subjects by other languages.
- The active antipassive requires 1 active argument.
- it indicates there is a stative constituent (patient) involved, although it’s left unstated.
- The stative antipassive requires 1 active argument.
- This voice indicates there is a stative constituent (experiencer, theme, etc.) involved, although it’s left unstated.
- Like the stative passive, this voice can behave in unexpected manners for non-native speakers who are used to different notions of “subject”.
- The active version of these voices requires 1 active argument.
- The stative version of these voices requires 1 stative argument.
- Both voices are essentially transitive.
- The reflexive indicates the active and stative arguments of the underlying transitive verb are the same.
- The reciprocal indicates there are 2 or more constituents involved, each of which are active (carrying out the action on the others) and stative (undergoing the actions performed by the other constituents).
- Jin does not have reflexive or reciprocal pronouns; these voices are used in lieu of those.
- The impersonal requires 0 arguments. It stands on its own.
- It states that an action is happening or that something exists, without comment on who or what is in the state or performing the action.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings
Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings