First detailed conlang- notes/suggestions?

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scorpryan
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Updated case system

Post by scorpryan »

I decided I hated the case system, it was aesthetically unpleasing and not the sound I was going for. I feel like this is better because it takes into account some new sound change rules I implemented for affixes, the morphemes are phonetically related to each other if they are also semantically related to each other (-ul vs. -el), and it gives the language a more consistent "sound"... let me know if you guys think it's an improvement... also, I noticed that I had incorrectly named the comitative case as caritive, so I had a "caritive" and "abessive" which was a silly accident. Now they are two clearly defined, oppositional cases with the correct names.

Absolutive: null ending
Ergative: -ktu
Accusative: -ç, -ıç, ça after consonants when another affix follows
Dative/Lative: -er, -r
Locative: -el
Ablative: -ul
Genitive: -i
Benefactive: -ta
Comitative: -va
Caritive: -če
Instructional: -kor
Genitive 2: -◌̄ri, -īri after consonants

Possessive suffixes

1st: -ni
2nd: -ya
3rd: -ză, să after voiceless consonant
1st pl: -nin
2nd pl: -yin
3rd pl: -zin, -sin after voiceless consonant

Ergative:
a/e/i/o/u ending: add -ktu (julma-julmaktu)
consonant ending: delete consonant, add -ktu (melek-melektu)
ô/ă: delete the vowel, delete preceding consonant and another if necessary, add -ktu (kalolmă- kaloktu)

Accusative:
a/e/i/o/u: add -ç (julma-julmaç)
ç ending: no change (isoç-isoç)
consonant: add -ıç *if another affix is added, this affix will become -ça- instead. also, if this happens, the final -z of a stem ending in -z will change to -s. (melek-melekıç, but melekçanin; ruz-ruzıç-rusçanin)

Dative/Lative
a/e/i/o/u: add -r (ilya-ilar)
consonant: add -er (melek-meleker)
ô/ă: lengthen vowel to o /o/ or a /a/ respectively, then add -r (kalolmă-kalolmar)

Genitive
consonant: add -i (melek-meleki)
a e o u ô/ă: delete and replace with -i (ilya-ili)
i: no change phonetically, but may be marked as ii in orthography and original script

Locative

*delete final vowel if any and add -el ...or...
*a i o u : add -el, consonant add -el, e add -l (this would make a lot of diphthongs, which do occur naturally elsewhere, but I'm not sure which way fits the language better here)

Ablative
delete vowel if any, add -ul. (melek-melekul)

Benefactive
ô/ă: delete, add -ta (melek-melekta)
-t: add -a, do not double the /t/ (geret-gereta)
all others: add -ta

Comitative
ô/ă: delete vowel, delete another consonant if necessary to avoid triconsonant cluster, add -ba/-va where appropriate (kalolmă-kalolva)
-f: add -ba (yalıf-yalıfba)
all others: add -va (melek-melekva)

Caritive
ô/ă: delete, delete another consonant if necessary, then add -če (kalolmă-kalolče)
all others, add -če

Instructional:
add -kor, but don't double the /k/ (melek-melekor)
if ends in ô/ă: delete the vowel first, then a consonant if necessary, then add -kor

Additional rules: words that end in y(V), as in <ilya>, will lose the <y> in all cases except the absolutive. Thus, <ilya>-<ilakor>. also, obviously, triconsonant clusters are not allowed.



I think it looks/sounds much cleaner, and is more phonetically sound... no?

EDIT: just realized that I still have a triconsonant cluster in the verb system, with the special ending -eştma, which I kind of want to preserve. Could I somehow make it a "rule" that triconsonant clusters are avoided (in the case of nouns, always elided), but that there are a few... perhaps even just ONE example? Or is this very unnatural? Perhaps sibilant + stop + nasal is allowed?

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mèþru
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Re: First detailed conlang- notes/suggestions?

Post by mèþru »

Rare clusters are a very common feature in English and French
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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spanick
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Re: First detailed conlang- notes/suggestions?

Post by spanick »

It's nice to see some allomorphs! I basically only have three minor questions/comments:

(1) Why is that only the accusative take additional endings?
(2) It seems odd that so many consonants would be elided in the event of a tri-consonantal cluster. Maybe someone else could weigh in and let me know if this has a natural precedent (not that it necessarily needs one) but it does seem odd. That being said, it solves your consonant cluster problem and in a way you find suitable so...go for it haha
(3) What is the motivation behind the y-deletion rule? ilya > *ilyar doesn't seem to violate any rules. Is this just an aesthetic thing?

As for the locative thing, I *personally* prefer to make diphthongs and glides and long vowels int his kind of environment, but that's just me. Considering your rules for the Genitive and Ablative, continuing to follow the deletion rule seems consistent.

scorpryan
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Re: First detailed conlang- notes/suggestions?

Post by scorpryan »

Thank you for another response! All cases can take additional endings, but the accusative is the only one that requires a rearranging of sounds, primarily to avoid triconsonant clusters. None of the other cases present this problem.
The motivation behind the deletion of y is mostly aesthetic, because if the 2nd person possessive ending is ever added, it produces a repetitive, baby-talk aesthetic to me; 'ilyaya' or 'ilyarya' just annoy me to hear. Rather than make the rule to delete the y only in these instances, I figured it seemed less transparently nitpicky to just have it elided in all situations other than the absolutive unmarked.

scorpryan
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Lots of updates

Post by scorpryan »

Please have a look below.

Some changes:
/ng/ no longer exists as a nasal. It would be two separate consonants.
Dipthongs are limited to /ay/ /ey/ /oy/ /uy/. If vowels must interact, they are separated by a glottal stop.
The perfective preverb is now m-, not g-.
/r/ is now reduced to a tap between vowels or before a consonant.
/y/ is now a semivowel; a consonant if followed by a vowel, a vowel as part of a diphthong otherwise.
(C)+(C)+s is now an allowed complex coda- the only one, as a matter of fact.
Complex onsets catalogued in a chart- every possible initial cluster.
The allowance of triconsonant clusters medially in some cases, and as part of an onset only due to preverbs.
A refined case system/changed spelling rules for adding case suffixes.
New possessive suffixes: -ni, -ya, -ză/-să, -nin, -yin, -zin/-sin.
Devoicing of consonants to aid pronunciation does occur in some situations, which have been explained.
Assimilation still does not occur for the plural marker but does occur in some other cases, which have been specified (actually I think there is just one).
The indirect object suffixes are now: -keran, -şeran, and -(z)eran. They may now occur after a direct object suffix. They still do not show number.
A thus far incomplete table of pronouns has been included; they include the proclitics and suffixes used to form pronomial adverbs, and the emphatic forms. Still need to flesh this out but wanted to share the idea.
Also, I would suggest ignoring the glossary I included in my original post. Many words have been changed or deleted. I am working on a basic dictionary right now, and I have a handful of glosses with audio I will share later. Oh, and I made a writing system! I will try to post that later on.


Phonology: same as original post, but with /d/ and /t/ as dental, and /ng/ no longer listed.

Further notes
* Consonants are never aspirated.
* Consonants are only devoiced or voiced to aid pronunciation in certain situations. Some noteable ones include: the perfective preverb 'm-' will become 'n-' before a verb root that begins with an 'm', and the habitual preverb 'č-' becomes 'j-' if the verb root begins with a 'č' already… the 3rd person plural pronomial clitic “in-“ for forming adverbs may have the nasal assimilated (but note that the plural marker “in-“ always remains intact)… the possessive suffixes -ză and -zin are devoiced to -să and -sin before voiceless consonants, etc. Unless otherwise noted, consonant voicing is not changed to aid pronunciation. A final 'b' is always a /b/, for example.
* /r/ is trilled when initial or final, like in Spanish 'rr', or reduced to a light tap elsewhere (between vowels, as part of a medial consonant cluster…).
* a macron ◌̄ means that primary stress shifts to that syllable and the vowel in question is lengthened slightly.
* ı is basically the same as in Turkish (close back unrounded). That being said, it is sometimes realized as /ɪ/ in certain dialects, especially in rapid speech.

Stress
Primary stress is word-initial, unless a stress diacritic (macron) is used elsewhere. Secondary stress falls on every odd numbered syllable after the first, but only in even numbered words (i.e, a three-syllable word will have only primary stress, but a four-syllable word will have primary stress on the first syllable and secondary stress on the third). Secondary stress should be WEAKER and less emphatic than primary stress; it is almost non-existent. Also note that the indirect object suffixes (-keran, -şeran, -(z)eran) may shift secondary stress unexpectedly to the <a> (fourth syllable, i.e, BENikşătzerAN rather than BENikşătZERan) in common speech or in certain dialets, but this is a trivial rule that is not marked in writing and does not confuse meaning if ignored.

işeb (I know) = i · şeb
julmani (my beloved) = JUL · ma · ni
julmavani (with my beloved) = JUL · ma · VA · ni


Phonotactics
1.) Nucleus must be a vowel
2.) No complex codas (no final consonant clusters), except for consonant + /s/, which usually occurs due to verbal suffixation, but does appear in a few other words, mostly adjectives
3.) Triconsonant clusters are rare and largely avoided except for the following combinations, which occur exclusively in verbal affixation: sibilant+stop+nasal, i.e <-ştma> or sibilant+stop+stop, i.e <-ştkim>, and nasal+stop+stop <-ntkim>, and the occasional combination of consonant+glottal stop+consonant, as the glottal stop is treated as belonging to its only class, separate from other consonants.
4.) Complex onset restricted to predefined clusters (see below)
5.) The only diphthongs possible are /ay/, /ey/, /oy/, /uy/. If a vowel must interact another vowel, they will be separated with a glottal stop.

Allowed onset clusters:
/ʔ/ + consonant (only in clitics)
plus all of the following:

Image

*most- but not all- of the clusters in the ‘m’ and ‘č’ rows occur initially in verbs because of verbal affixation in the perfective and habitual aspects, and will not occur naturally anywhere else in the language. only a few are possible in other words (e.g, /mf/- occurs in a few noun stems). also note that the glottal stop is not included here. In fact, the only initial clusters that occur naturally outside of verbal affixaton are: /jw/, /mt/, /mf/, /mw/, /kt/, /kf/, /ks/, /kş/, /kf/, /gt/, /gf/, /kw/, /dr/, /st/, /gw/, /dw/, /tw/, /hw/, /hl/, /hs/ /hş/, /hy/, /hm/, /jw/, /hr/. Some of these are more common than others, but they are somewhat rare in general. The only ones that occur with significant frequency seem to be /jw/, /kt/, /kw/, and the /h/+consonant series. The rest seem to be limited to <25 words each.

The semi-vowel /y/: /y/ can be a vowel as part of diphthong or a consonant. If it is followed by a vowel then it is a consonant. Otherwise, it functions as part of a diphthong, producing the only diphthongs found in the language: /ay/, /ey/, /oy/, /uy/. It does not ever form a dipthong with /i/.

Noun Morphology

Plural Marker + Stem + Case + Possessive + Clitic(s)

Plural marker: in-
Case:
Absolutive: -∅
Ergative: -ktu
Accusative: -ç, -ıç, ça after consonants when another affix follows
Dative/Lative: -er, -r
Locative: -el
Ablative: -ul
Genitive: -i
Benefactive: -ta
Comitative: -va
Caritive: -če
Instructional: -kor
Genitive 2: -◌̄ri, -īri after consonants

Possessive suffixes
1st: -ni
2nd: -ya
3rd: -ză, să after voiceless consonant
1st pl: -nin
2nd pl: -yin
3rd pl: -zin, -sin after voiceless consonant

*all –ya nouns change to –a before adding affixes.
Ergative:
*a/e/i/o/u ending: add -ktu (julma-julmaktu)
*consonant ending: delete consonant, add -ktu (melek-melektu)
*ô/ă: delete the vowel, delete preceding consonant and another if necessary, add -ktu (kalomă- kaloktu)

Accusative:
*a/e/i/o/u: add -ç (julma-julmaç)
*ç ending: no change (isoç-isoç)
*consonant: add -ıç *if another affix is added, this affix will become -ça- instead. also, if this happens, the final -z of a stem ending in -z will change to -s. (melek-melekıç, but melekçanin; ruz-ruzıç-rusçanin)

Dative/Lative
*a/e/i/o/u: add -r (ilya-ilar)
*consonant: add -er (melek-meleker)
*ô/ă: lengthen vowel to o /o/ or a /a/ respectively, then add -r (kalomă-kalomar)


Genitive
*consonant: add -i (melek-meleki)
*a e o u ô/ă: delete and replace with -i (ilya-ili)
i: no change phonetically, but may be represented orthographically as ii

Locative
*consonant: add –el
*-e: add –l (peşe-peşel, gelme-gelmel)
*a i o u: add –‘el (nimo-nimo’el, numi-numi’el, ilya-ila’el)

Ablative
*consonant, some old words…add -ul. (melek-melekul, ilya-ilul, nimo-nimul)
*ă or ô: delete, add –ul (kalomă-kalomul)
*vowel: add –‘ul (lizba-lizba’ul)

Benefactive
*ô/ă: delete, add -ta (kalomă-kalomta)
*-t: add -a, do not double the /t/ (geret-gereta)
*all others: add -ta (melek-melekta, agwe-agweta)

Comitative
*ô/ă: delete vowel, delete another consonant if necessary to avoid triconsonant cluster, add -ba/-va where appropriate (kalomă-kalomva)
*-f: add -ba (yalıf-yalıfba)
*all others: add -va (melek-melekva)

Caritive
*ô/ă: delete, delete another consonant if necessary, then add -če (kalomă-kalomče)
*all others, add –če (melek-melekče)

Instructional
*add -kor, but don't double the /k/ (melek-melekor)
*if ends in ô/ă: delete the vowel first, then a consonant if necessary, then add -kor

Additional rules: 1.) words that end in y(V), as in <ilya>, will lose the <y> in all cases except the absolutive. Thus, <ilya>-<ilakor>.

Cltics (may be attached in the final position to any word in a sentence, including nouns)
-'kô urgency
-'kis diminutive
-'lă question
-'lu negative question "isn't it? is it"
-'ba exclamatory

Allowable noun stem endings: a, e, i, o, u, ă , ô, k, t, d, l, m, z, s, f, ç
*note that nouns ending in ă or ô are usually 3 syllables and often derived from verbs (e.g, <kalomă> teacher from <kal-> to teach)

Particles:
ş vocative, honorific
h emphasis
fă' eyn used in negative commands
fa', fu negative ??
* adpositions are used in most cases for a variety of meanings. see dictionary.
* the second genitive has the meaning of "of the ___(s)". Whereas the genitive is used strictly for possession, Genitive II functions more like an adjective, and is used to describe nationality, origin, affiliation, or even likeness, and has a more a "poetic" register. The dotted circle with macron represents the final vowel of the noun, which will receive the primary stress and thus the diacritic (macron). If the noun stem has no final vowel, the ‘i’ with macron plus –ri will be added.

Verbal Paradigm
Image


The subject and object affixes above are listed in order (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st pl...) and obviously not all can be combined with each other. Also, after -eş, -tma is used instead of -măt, so the YOU + ME combo is -eştma.
The 3rd person object is intentionally null. In the transitive conjugation, 3rd person objects are implied. So <lahwa> means "he/she/it reads it."
Note that this is a template of all existing affixes for the transitive series conjugations, and not all of them are possible in all combinations. Instead, refer to list of tenses, etc.

The optative mood is not to be confused with the imperative, which serve different purposes. See 'imperative' below.

When called for, the indirect object affixes may also be used. Note that the I.O endings do not include number, only person (number will be implied by context):
-keran 1st indirect object
-şeran 2nd indirect object
-(z)eran 3rd indirect object
Officially, there is no past tense. Instead, the perfective aspect is used to convey actions that happened in the past (in absence of future-tense marker). Technically, there is no marking for present tense either; the subject endings are merely added onto the imperfective stem, which is "present tense" by default until the future marker -i is added. The imperfective past (“I was singing”) can be implied using the habitual aspect or simple indicative (it really doesn’t matter) with adverbs or other contextual details that suggest a past-tense time frame.

Image

Intransitive series
1st -eb
2nd -iş
3rd -u
1pl -im
2pl -ya
3pl -waz, -az?? not sure

Imperative:
1.) To give a positive command, use the imperative, which is identical to the aorist form. umă! eat!
2.) To give a negative command, use the prohibitive, which is: fă' eyn + root-eş fă' eyn yareştma! don't look at me!
3.) To give a command that includes an object, you have several options:
a.) use the optative joteşkeranif! bring it to me! (common)
b.) use the separate form of the object, with this word coming first: ben joteş! bring it to me! (rare, a little rude)
c.) use the aorist/imperative form and leave the object to be implied: jotă! bring (it to me)! (fairly common)
d.) use the plain old indicative... joteşkeran! (considered somewhat crass and rude)

Pronouns
Rather than use separate words, pronouns are usually represented by affixes. The only time a separate word is used is for emphasis (see ‘emphatic’ below), or for clarification of the object (see ‘separate object’ below), often to clarify the indirect object because the attached indirect object pronouns do not designate number, or as a single-word response designating the object (“(to/at) whom?” “them.”). Note that the separable object pronouns do not differentiate between direct or indirect like the attached counterparts do. The proclitic and suffix forms listed below are used to form pronomial adverbs (e.g, “without me”). Different adverbs prefer different affixes, and some are highly irregular, taking a proclitic in one person and a suffix in another.

Image


Pronomial Adverbs
As stated above, pronomial adverbs are formed with proclitics or suffixes. The formation of these words is highly irregular, and it is best to simply memorize each word. Here are some examples, with irregularites in italics:

eşni (“except for”; normally a postposition)
eşnib except for me eşniç except for you eşnis except for him eşnim except for us yeşni except for you all eşnin except for them

dul (“under”) badul çadul sadul madul yadul idul
med (“about, concerning”) medeb medeç samed medem medya medin
yab (“on top of”) bayab çayab yabs mayab yabīya yabin
laşad (“without”) laşadab laşadaç laşadas laşadam laşadya laşadin
zayd (“behind”) zaydeb zaydeç zaydes zaydem zaydya zaydin

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