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 Post subject: Frislander's scratchpad
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:22 am 
Avisaru
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I have a problem in that I often have my head filled with ideas for conlangs which don't really come to fruition or get fully developed. Right now I'm obsessing about making an Algonquian-language (based on a previous effort), probably placed in Montana, and I have some sound changes to derive it (please note that plain vowels when written refer to both the short and long variants unless otherwise specified):

1. Final vowels are dropped in words of more than two syllables, with the resulting final glides being lost as well.

2. Consonants disappear initially before a glide.

3. Post-consonantal *we and *wa collapse into o, *ye and *yi collapse into i and *ya becomes e. Initially *we becomes o and *ye and *yi become i, while *ya raises to ye. All glides are then lost after consonants

4. EDIT: Short initial *e becomes i initially. Then a vowel shift takes place: *o becomes i, *a becomes o and *e becomes a.

5. Vowels are lengthened before *h, shortened before and both consonants are lost completely.

6. *s, *x and collapse into h. EDIT: removed the second part of this rule and edited the results of the sound changes too.

7. Another chain shift: *k is lost. *t then backs to k and and *r become t to fill the gap, however in the intervening time between k being lost and merging with *r, became h before another consonant..

8. becomes š, merging with , which then becomes s.

9. Either between two vowels or between a vowel and the beginning of a words, short *i becomes y and short *o becomes w.

10. A long vowel before another vowel becomes a short vowel-glide sequence, with i· becoming iy, a· becoming ah.

11. Any remaining short vowels appearing before another vowel are deleted.

12. w merges with y. y then strengthens to š.

13. Long vowels are shortened at the end of a word.

The resulting vocabulary looks like this:

EDIT: itani "man" from *erenyiwa
EDIT: iti "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
otam "dog" from *aθemwa
ošata "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
EDIT: anti "hawk" from "kenriwa "eagle"
moti "bear" from *maθkwa
miihi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
siipo "ghost" from *či·paya
šoopih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
noma "fish" from *name·wa
EIDT: iši "louse" from *ehkwa
napi "water" from *nepyi
EDIT: isika "fire" from *eškwete·wi
oti "arrow" from *aθwi
šišišom "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi

I would like to add some form of tonal contrast but don't know how to do this: any ideas?.

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Last edited by Frislander on Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Frislander wrote:
I have a problem in that I often have my head filled with ideas for conlangs which don't really come to fruition or get fully developed. Right now I'm obsessing about making an Algonquian-language (based on a previous effort), probably placed in Montana, and I have some sound changes to derive it (please note that plain vowels when written refer to both the short and long variants unless otherwise specified):

I would like to add some form of tonal contrast but don't know how to do this: any ideas?.


This is really cool! I've wanted to make an Algonquian conlang for a long time, but I don't know of a good, really comprehensive source on Proto-Algonquian and Algonquian diachronics, which I feel I would need, since I'm not an expert in the field. Are there any sources in particular that you've looked at?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:21 am 
Avisaru
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Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Frislander wrote:
I have a problem in that I often have my head filled with ideas for conlangs which don't really come to fruition or get fully developed. Right now I'm obsessing about making an Algonquian-language (based on a previous effort), probably placed in Montana, and I have some sound changes to derive it (please note that plain vowels when written refer to both the short and long variants unless otherwise specified):

I would like to add some form of tonal contrast but don't know how to do this: any ideas?.


This is really cool! I've wanted to make an Algonquian conlang for a long time, but I don't know of a good, really comprehensive source on Proto-Algonquian and Algonquian diachronics, which I feel I would need, since I'm not an expert in the field. Are there any sources in particular that you've looked at?


Unfortunately I ran into the same problem when I first thought of it. dhok knows of some great resources, but unfortunately none of them come close to a proper full description of Proto-Algonquian; for instance the verb classification system seems to be missing from all of the sources I've looked at so far.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:10 am 
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Yeah, I'd be more than happy to bundle together some of the most important papers and send them to you. But there's not really a summary of Proto-Algonquian...there's Bloomfield's 1946 sketch, but that was the paper that started the field of comparative Algonquian, and while little of it is flat-out wrong, most of Bloomfield's statements are really only half the story. (It's required reading, though- none of the literature will make sense unless you've read, and hopefully memorized, Bloomfield '46). Pentland's 1979 dissertation 'Algonquian Historical Phonology' is about as complete a sketch of PA phonology as you're going to find, and can be used with only a few minor (and controversial) revisions. You'll also want to read a few papers on the similarities (and differences) in the development of the various Algonquian languages; otherwise, you're doomed to end up with an Algonquian version of "my Romlang is set in Switzerland but maintains the Latin passive and all the cases." (For example, if your Algonquian language is spoken in Kentucky, it would be very surprising to have separate reflexes for *r and . Goddard's The West-to-East Cline in Algonquian Dialectology is a good survey of the phonological side of things- for grammar, we're still waiting.)

PA grammar is scattered around the literature. I'd start with Bloomfield's Sketch, then read Goddard's Reconstructing the Independent Indicative. Further forays into the field will require quite a bit of reading, some of which I haven't done, like Goddard's PhD dissertation on Delaware verbs.

I've got all of these and a lot more on PDF- PM me your email address and I'll get you set up.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:41 pm 
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OK, animate nouns inflect for singular, plural and obviate. The obviate plural was rendered homophonous with the proximate plural (due in part to the loss of *k and *h), so it was lost as a separate category.

The formation of the plural is heavily dependent on the shape of the root. If the root ends in a vowel, then -šo is suffixed, frequently with lengthening of the final vowel as well. If the root ends in a consonant, then either -i or -o is suffixed depending on whether the PA final -a was preceded by w or not. Also, originally bi-syllabic nouns (such as miihi "bison" from *mo·swa, "moose"), due to the lack of final syllable loss, have no separate plural form.

The obviate is formed much more simply: it (generally) takes the form of a -t suffix attached to the plural.

Examples:

"dog"
SNG otam
PLU otami
OBV otamit

"duck"
SNG sisiip
PLU sisiipo
OBV sisiipot

"man"
SNG itani
PLU itanišo
OBV itanišot

"woman"
SNG iti
PLU itiišo
OBV itiišot

"bear"
SNG moti
PLU moti
OBV motit

"louse"
SNG iši
PLU iši
OBV išit

Inanimate nouns, on the other hand, inflect only for singular-plural. Again there is a three-way allomorphy between the forms of the plural suffix: after vowels the form is generally -šot, often with lengthening of the preceding vowel. After consonants the suffix is of the form -ot/-at. After originally bi-syllabic roots the suffix is generally of the form -t. There are as always a good few exceptions.

"house"
SNG šišišom
PLU šišišomot

"stone"
SNG ohan
PLU ohanat

"day"
SNG iisi
PLU iisiišot

"stick"
SNG maka
PLU makit

"arrow"
SNG oti
PLU otit

"berry"
SNG miini
PLU miinot

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:58 pm 
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Right, I've decided to keep PA *θ and *r separate, with *r :> t. No other change occurs: the results will stay mostly the same apart from including θ. Thus "woman" is now iθi, "dog" is now oθam, "bear" is now moθi and "arrow" is now oθi, still homophonous with oθi "snake".

Also, how the hell do you do basic tables with columns? because I want to post my possessive paradigms and can't do it properly in a nice table.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:18 am 
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Changes to changes again. Now preconsonantal *s, *x, *ç and *θ all become ʔ at the same time: before the loss of *k, but after the loss of *h and *ʔ. *s afterwards still becomes h. Also ʔ is epenthesised to the front of vowel-initial words. Now the examples words are of the form:

EDIT: 'itani "man" from *erenyiwa
EDIT: 'i'i "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
'oθam "dog" from *aθemwa
'ošata "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
EDIT: 'anti "hawk" from *kenriwa "eagle"
mo'i "bear" from *maθkwa
miihi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
siipo "ghost" from *či·paya
šoopih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
noma "fish" from *name·wa
EIDT: 'iši "louse" from *ehkwa
napi "water" from *nepyi
EDIT: 'isika "fire" from *eškwete·wi
'oθi "arrow" from *aθwi
šišišom "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi
'ohan "stone" from *aʔsenya
'iisi "day" from *ki·šekwa·wi
manoon "settlement, village" from *menika·ni

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:17 am 
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Reanalysis time!: I've realised that there is a glaring asymmetry in the nouns: in original polysyllabic nouns, the obviative is a -t suffixed on what appears to be the plural form: 'itani, 'itanišo, 'itanišot "man, men, man (OBV)". Now these nouns are going to be re-analysed along the lines of the original bi-syllabic nouns: mo'i, mo'i, mo'it "bear, bears, bear (OBV)". Now plural and obviative are separated and formed agglutinatively: plural is still formed in the same way, but the obviative is now a -t suffix attached to either number depending on the number of the noun:

"man"
Code:
     SING    PLUR
PROX 'itani  'itanišo
OBV  'itanit 'itanišot


"dog"
Code:
     SING   PLUR
PROX 'oθam  'oθami
OBV  'oθant 'oθamit


"bear"
Code:
     SING  PLUR
PROX mo'i  mo'i
OBV  mo'it mo'it

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:49 pm 
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OK, so the reanalysis will only fully take place in the more innovative Southern dialect. In the more conservative Northern dialect, only the first part (-:šo begin reanalysed as plural) will occur, and the obviation distinction will therefore be lost in the plural.

"man"
Code:
PROX 'itani
OBV  'itanit
PLUR 'itanišo


"dog"
Code:
PROX 'oθam
OBV  'oθant
PLUR 'oθami


"bear"
Code:
PROX mo'i
OBV  mo'it
PLUR mo'it


Also, *č now merges with *θ as in Arapaho, so "ghost" is now θiipo

Possession markers to come soon.

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Last edited by Frislander on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:57 pm 
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Right, more changes to sound changes. Firstly, the stuff with the vowels and glides merging is moving to the start (where it should be, really). Secondly, before word-final glide and vowel loss, an accent is placed in the word. It is placed first of all on the first long vowel. If there are no long vowels and the first syllable is light, the accent goes on the second syllable, otherwise on the first. Finally, before the effects of *ʔ and *h occur, a long vowel is shortened in a syllable which precedes another long vowel.

So the example nouns now look like this:

'itáni "man" from *erenyiwa
'i'í "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
'oθám "dog" from *aθemwa
'ošáta "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
'ánti "hawk" from *kenriwa "eagle"
mó'i "bear" from *maθkwa
mííhi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
θíípo "ghost" from *či·paya
šóópih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
nomá "fish" from *name·wa
'íši "louse" from *ehkwa
napí "water" from *nepyi
'isiká "fire" from *eškwete·wi
'oθí "arrow" from *aθwi
šíšišom "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi
'óhan "stone" from *aʔsenya
'íísi "day" from *ki·šekwa·wi
manóón "settlement, village" from *menika·ni
hípi "river, stream" from *si·pi·wi
'ínoopi "snow" from *ko·na·powi

This accent is contrastive:

'o'í "snake" from *aθko·ka
'ó'i "land, country" from *askyi

One or two minor adjustments may follow, but that is the basic gist of it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:03 am 
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...Or alternatively, an accent is placed on all syllables containing a long vowel or a coda consonant, and then a accent is lost if it is followed later in the word by another accent. This enables accent-less words. EDIT: and the accent is now only lost if the syllable directly following it also has one. Now the examples are thus:

'itani "man" from *erenyiwa
'i'í "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
'oθam "dog" from *aθemwa
'ošatá "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
'ánti "hawk" from *kenriwa "eagle"
mó'i "bear" from *maθkwa
mííhi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
θíípo "ghost" from *či·paya
šóópih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
nomá "fish" from *name·wa
'íši "louse" from *ehkwa
napi "water" from *nepyi
'ísiká "fire" from *eškwete·wi
'oθi "arrow" from *aθwi
šíšišóm "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi
'óhan "stone" from *aʔsenya
'íísí "day" from *ki·šekwa·wi
manóón "settlement, village" from *menika·ni
hipí "river, stream" from *si·pi·wi
'inóópi "snow" from *ko·na·powi

This accent is (still) contrastive:

'o'í "snake" from *aθko·ka
'ó'i "land, country" from *askyi

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:11 pm 
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What pitch is the accent? Also, let me get the sound changes straight:
  1. Final vowels are dropped in words of more than two syllables, with the resulting final glides being lost as well.
  2. Consonants disappear initially before a glide.
  3. All syllables with codas or long vowels receive a high tone (I assume that's what the accent is, based on the only Algonquian language I read about: Arapaho).
  4. High tone is lost if the following syllable has one.
  5. Post-consonantal /we wa/ collapse into /o/, /je ji/ collapse into /i/ and /ja/ becomes e. Initially, /we/ becomes /o/ and /je ji/ become /i/, while /ya/ is raised to /je/. All glides are then lost after consonants. Are all of these short?
  6. Short initial /e/ becomes /i/. /o/ becomes i, /a/ becomes /o/ and /e/ becomes /a/. Is this still all short?
  7. Short vowels are lengthened before /h/, and long vowels are shortened before /ʔ/. Both consonants are lost.
  8. /s ʃ r/ collapse into /h/.
  9. /ʔ/ is inserted before a word initial vowel.
  10. /k/ is lost. /t/ then backs to /k/. /r/ become /t/.
  11. /θ/ becomes /h/ before another consonant..
  12. /ʃ/ becomes /s/ and /t͡ʃ/ becomes /ʃ/.
  13. Either between two vowels, short /i/ becomes /j/ and short /o/ becomes /w/.
  14. A long vowel before another vowel becomes a short vowel-glide sequence, with /iː/ becoming /ij/, /aː/ becoming /ah/.
  15. Any remaining short vowels appearing before another vowel are deleted.
  16. /w/ merges with /j/, and the merged phoneme then becomes /ʃ/.
  17. Long vowels are shortened finally.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


Last edited by mèþru on Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:34 pm 
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It is a high pitch, but your sound changes are mixed up: I'll have to repost them here:
  1. Short inital *e becomes i (this is a general Western Algonquian thing)
  2. Final vowels are dropped in words of more than two syllables, with the resulting final glides being lost as well.
  3. Consonants disappear initially before a glide.
  4. All syllables with codas or long vowels receive a high tone.
  5. High tone is lost if the following syllable has one.
  6. Post-consonantal *we, *wa collapse into o, *ye, *yi collapse into i and *ya becomes e. Initially, *we becomes o and *ye, *yi become i, while *ya is raised to je. All glides are then lost after consonants. This is irrespective of length.
  7. *o becomes i, *a becomes o and *e becomes a, irrespective of length.
  8. Short vowels are lengthened before *h, and long vowels are shortened before *ʔ. Both consonants are lost.
  9. *s debuccalises to h.
  10. *k is lost. *t then backs to k and *r becomes t.
  11. ʔ is inserted before a word initial vowel.
  12. *θ, *š, *ç and *x become glottal stops before another consonant..
  13. *š becomes s and *č becomes θ.
  14. Between two vowels, short *i becomes j and short *o becomes w.
  15. A long vowel before another vowel becomes a short vowel-glide sequence, with *iː becoming ij, *aː becoming ah and *o: becoming ow.
  16. Any remaining short vowels appearing before another vowel are deleted.
  17. *w merges with *y, and the merged phoneme then becomes ʃ.
  18. Long vowels are shortened finally.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:26 pm 
Smeric
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Running the vocab through these sound changes, I got:
'itani
'íθí
'oθám
'ošátá
'ánti
móθi
mííhi
θíípo
šoopíh
nomá
'íši
napi
'ísiká
'oθši
šíšišóm
'ohán
'íísí
manóón
hiipí
'iinóópi
'oθí
'ósi
It looks pretty different from you most recent list. Maybe I did something wrong in SCA. Here's the sound changes I plugged in:
L=ieoa
H=íéóá
V=ieoaíéóá
N=iaioíáíó
C=ptk'mnrsšhθ

e/i/#_/_·
·//_#
V//_#
[wy]//_#
C//#_[wy]
L/H/_·
L/H/_C[C#]
H/L/_(·)(C)(C)H
w[ea]/o/C_
w[éá]/ó/C_
y[ie]/i/[C#]_
y[íé]/í/[C#]_
ya/e/C_
yá/é/C_
we/o/#_
wé/ó/#_
a/e/#y_
á/é/#y_
V/N/_
h/·/V_
·ʔ//_
[ʔh]//_
s/h/_/_C
k//_
t/k/_
r/t/_
/'/#_V
[θšrs]/'/_C
š/s/_
č/θ/_
[ií]/y/V_V
[oó]/w/V_V
i·/iy/_V
í·/íy/_V
a·/ah/_V
á·/áh/_V
o·/ow/_V
ó·/ów/_V
V//_V
[wy]/š/_
·//_#
V·/V²/_

Also, I think šíšišom should undergo some haplology.

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


Last edited by mèþru on Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:05 pm 
Smeric
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I propose the following orthography for this language. It is based on the idea that the Ohio government would start a program to write Amerind languages of that state without pre-existing writing systems in English-based Latin alphabets (before Webster invented American English spelling). Other Amerind languages to the east and west are given similar orthographies in what is called the Detroit System:
/p t k ʔ/ <p t k hh> (glottal stop is not written initially)
/m n/ <m n>
/θ s ʃ h/ <th s sh h~wh> (<wh> after <t> or <s>)
/iː i oː o aː a/ <ee e oo o aa a>
/iː˦ i˦ oː˦ o˦ aː˦ a˦/ <eei ei ooi oi aai ai>

The words I wrote become:
etane
eithei
othaim
oshaitai
ainte
moithe
meeihe
theeipo
shoopeih
nomai
eishe
nape
eisekai
othshe
sheisheshoim
ohain
eeisei
manooin
heepei
eenooipe
othei
oise

I put the phonology in the romanisation thread. If someone makes an English-orthography that I like better, that would become my new proposal.

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:51 am 
Avisaru
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mèþru wrote:
Running the vocab through these sound changes, I got:
More: show
'itani
'íθí
'oθám
'ošátá
'ánti
móθi
mííhi
θíípo
šoopíh
nomá
'íši
napi
'ísiká
'oθši
šíšišóm
'ohán
'íísí
manóón
hiipí
'iinóópi
'oθí
'ósi

It looks pretty different from you most recent list. Maybe I did something wrong in SCA. Here's the sound changes I plugged in:
More: show
L=ieoa
H=íéóá
V=ieoaíéóá
N=iaioíáíó
C=ptk'mnrsšhθ

e/i/#_/_·
·//_#
V//_#
[wy]//_#
C//#_[wy]
L/H/_·
L/H/_C[C#]
H/L/_(·)(C)(C)H
w[ea]/o/C_
w[éá]/ó/C_
y[ie]/i/[C#]_
y[íé]/í/[C#]_
ya/e/C_
yá/é/C_
we/o/#_
wé/ó/#_
a/e/#y_
á/é/#y_
V/N/_
h/·/V_
·ʔ//_
[ʔh]//_
s/h/_/_C
k//_
t/k/_
r/t/_
/'/#_V
[θšrs]/'/_C
š/s/_
č/θ/_
[ií]/y/V_V
[oó]/w/V_V
i·/iy/_V
í·/íy/_V
a·/ah/_V
á·/áh/_V
o·/ow/_V
ó·/ów/_V
V//_V
[wy]/š/_
·//_#
V·/V²/_

Also, I think šíšišom should undergo some haplology.


Sorry, it was late, I was on my phone and I got a few wrong, sorry about that: here are the SCA2 formatted changes:

V=aeioáéíó
P=aeio
A=áéíó
C=ptkmnrhsčšθxçʔwy
G=wy
N=nhšθxçʔ

C//#_G
e/i/#_(T)C
w[ea]/o/C_
y[ei]/i/C_
ya/e/C_
we/o/#_
ye/i/#_
ya/ye/#_
G//C_
/'/_V·
/'/_VCC
'//_V(·)C'
'//_V(·)NC'
V//V…V…_#
G//_#
o/i/_
a/o/_
e/a/_
·//_C(')V·
·//_NC(')V·
/·/V_h
·//_ʔ
[hʔ]//_
[sxçθ]/ʔ/_C
s/h/_
k//_
t/k/_
r/t/_
/ʔ/#_(')V
č/θ/_
š/s/_
i/y/[#V]_(')V
o/w/[#V]_(')V
·/y/[ia]_(')V
·/w/o_(')V
V//_(')V
w/y/_
y/š/_
·//_#
P/A/'_
V·/V²/_
'//_
C//_²

I do agree that šíšišóm would undergo haplology, yes.

I also like the principal behind your orthography and will post my own version in the romanisation thread, though with the corrected phonology.

I also promise I will do possession today.

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Last edited by Frislander on Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:57 am 
Avisaru
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Frislander wrote:
It is a high pitch, but your sound changes are mixed up: I'll have to repost them here:
  1. Short inital *e becomes i (this is a general Western Algonquian thing)
  2. Final vowels are dropped in words of more than two syllables, with the resulting final glides being lost as well.
  3. Consonants disappear initially before a glide.
  4. All syllables with codas or long vowels receive a high tone.
  5. High tone is lost if the following syllable has one.
  6. Post-consonantal *we, *wa collapse into o, *ye, *yi collapse into i and *ya becomes e. Initially, *we becomes o and *ye, *yi become i, while *ya is raised to je. All glides are then lost after consonants. This is irrespective of length.
  7. *o becomes i, *a becomes o and *e becomes a, irrespective of length.
  8. Short vowels are lengthened before *h, and long vowels are shortened before *ʔ. Both consonants are lost.
  9. *s debuccalises to h.
  10. *k is lost. *t then backs to k and *r becomes t.
  11. ʔ is inserted before a word initial vowel.
  12. *θ, *š, *ç and *x become glottal stops before another consonant..
  13. *š becomes s and *č becomes θ.
  14. Between two vowels, short *i becomes j and short *o becomes w.
  15. A long vowel before another vowel becomes a short vowel-glide sequence, with *iː becoming ij, *aː becoming ah and *o: becoming ow.
  16. Any remaining short vowels appearing before another vowel are deleted.
  17. *w merges with *y, and the merged phoneme then becomes ʃ.
  18. Long vowels are shortened finally.


EDIT: Ignore this post.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:00 am 
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I was going to write this before your edit. Perhaps some of it still applies?
Your sound changes for the SCA doesn't follow what you wrote earlier.

First, what is T?
Second, <x> is actually /s/ before consonants, and <ç> is /r/ before consonants.
Third, ·/y/[ia]_V, according to your list, is wrong because <a·> becomes /ah/.
Finally, C//_² is listed no where on your list.

EDIT:I know what T is. It is a pretty useless category though.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:11 am 
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mèþru wrote:
I was going to write this before your edit. Perhaps some of it still applies?
Your sound changes for the SCA doesn't follow what you wrote earlier.

First, what is T?
Second, <x> is actually /s/ before consonants, and <ç> is /r/ before consonants.
Third, ·/y/[ia]_V, according to your list, is wrong because <a·> becomes /ah/.
Finally, C//_² is listed no where on your list.


They don't follow it because what I wrote earlier was wrong. I've had a few problems. I stored my SCA2 sound changes in a text document. I've also been keeping the tab with SCA2 open between sessions. Trouble is, I closed it recently, but I'd obviously forgotten to save the most recent changes, because when I came back to it just now, I found that that was the case. This meant that I've just had to figure out the sound changes again and put them back into the document. Furthermore I hadn't realised it before posting the SCA2 changes here practically straight from the file. It has since been edited. :cry:

Srry for the confusion.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:46 pm 
Smeric
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Even when we plug in the same sound changes, somehow we got different results. (See the romanisation thread.)
Are there any Siouan influences on this language?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:52 pm 
Avisaru
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mèþru wrote:
Even when we plug in the same sound changes, somehow we got different results. (See the romanisation thread.)
Are there any Siouan influences on this language?


Probably. I'll need to do some research on that before I can say anything for definite yet, as I've been very busy reading up as much as I can on the Algonquian side (which is an absolute pain, by the way) to think seriously about it. If you can find me stuff on Crow I would be grateful for it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:59 pm 
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The Wikipedia page is pretty detailed. For the purpose of grammatical influence, its probably all you need.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:08 pm 
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Why am I so indecisive? Before I move on to possession there is one little change to the sound changes I would like to make (I'm really sorry everyone for making you edit stuff again): k now not lost initially, but is reflected as a glottal stop: all other initial vowels now get an h instead. The sound changes and resulting words are now:

EDIT: previous sound changes out of date

OK, now for possession.

Possession is marked by a combination of prefixes and suffixes on the possessed noun. Non-dependent (or alienable) nouns are marked by first taking a possessed theme suffix -(a)m before any inflections. Nouns beginning with an initial h- fortition this to k-

Code:
       SING  PLUR
1st    na-   na--(a)nóón
(incl) ----  'a--(a)non
2nd    'a-   'a--(a)mó
3rd    hi-   hi--(a)mó
indef      ma-


nahóšimóm
na-hóšimó-(a)m
1-chief-POSS
my cheif

'ašíšómamanon
'a-šíšóm-(a)m-(a)non
2-house-POSS-INCL
our (incl.) house(s)

makí'ikám
ma-hí'iká-(a)m
INDEF-fire-POSS
someone's fire

There are no separate obviate possessive forms: all (3rd person) possessors must be proximate. As a consequence all possessed nouns must be marked as obviative when taking a third-person possessor.

himííhont
hi-míího-(a)m-t
3-bison-POSS-OBV
his bison (not *himííhim)

The forms have shown much contamination from the animate-intransitive verbal inflections, including the generalisation of the tone patterns in the plural suffixes.

Dependent (or inalienable nouns) nouns do not take the -(a)m, and are also slightly irregular. Many of their base forms begin with h- (often a reanalysed 3rd person prefix), with the possessive prefixes replacing it like so:

Code:
       SING  PLUR
1st    n-    n--(a)nóón
(incl) ----  '--(a)non
2nd    '-    '--(a)mí
3rd    0     -(a)mí
indef      m-


nihááh
n-ihááh
1-son
my son (from *nekwiʔsehsa "my son (diminutive))

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Last edited by Frislander on Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:59 pm 
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I like the look of this so far. It's quite believable as a Plains Algonquian language without being an obvious copy of either Arapahoan or Cheyenne. I'm interested in seeing more. (One minor correction: the terms are proximate and obviative, not obviate)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:14 pm 
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Whimemsz wrote:
I like the look of this so far. It's quite believable as a Plains Algonquian language without being an obvious copy of either Arapahoan or Cheyenne. I'm interested in seeing more. (One minor correction: the terms are proximate and obviative, not obviate)


Thanks: I'll edit.

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