Native American survival scenario

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Re: Native American survival scenario

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alynnidalar wrote:I dunno if that particular idea works, I'm just throwing things out there. My point isn't for them to have the exact same conditions as Europe, my point is that disease could transform the American political/social/economic landscape as much as the Black Death transformed Europe.
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.

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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Now that I think about it, early mass settlement of the United States and the Caribbean by the Empire of the Britannic Isles (see the Gunpowder Plot proposal in the shared doc), while shifting immigration from the Caribbean, would not prevent the eventual vast settlement of the United States by Europeans. Eventually, immigrants will not be able to find enough cheap land and would start carving up the depopulated areas west of coastal settlements on the East Coast of the United States.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Any eligible noblewomen from Scotland for a third son of an English king? Read https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zz- ... irbqfddwc9 for the political situation. Details: Prince James (born 1636-11-27, died 1712-11-27), who didn't exist in real life, has two children (not counting stillbirths) with a Scottish noblewoman to which he remains faithful. He belongs to an episcopalian sect of moderate Puritans (to which his father also belongs to, but the other royal children do not). He was the favourite child of his father and mother, even becoming a hereditary Prince of Wales. In the same grant of title, he was made the hereditary Viscount of Renfrew, which was based on the non-hereditary title of Baron of Renfrew, and the Great Steward of Scotland (which until then was normally combined with the title of Prince of Scotland). He preferred living in Glasgow and erected a palace on its outskirts, while his father held court in Holyrood (the other royal children lived in Whitehall.) Kind and tolerant, he was viewed as something of a weakling by his jealous older brothers (whom he idolized for some unfathomable reason.) I would say that Anne Hamilton would fit the bill, but I already decided that she marries the middle brother (John).
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Hmm, war with Scotland, anyone?
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Frislander wrote:Hmm, war with Scotland, anyone?
Who? Why? When? Which scenario?
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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mèþru wrote:
Frislander wrote:Hmm, war with Scotland, anyone?
Who? Why? When? Which scenario?
Think about it: James marries a local Scottish noblewoman. His descendants remain in Scotland and with the help of the Scottish nobles have him (James or one of his sons) crowned as king of Scotland. This usurpation incites the English to march in. This could further stymie interest in the New World, especially if Scotland wins.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Scotland is not likely to win, as the highlanders and Irish would support reigning Stuarts. The combined forces, logistics, wealth and population of England and Ireland are better than Scotland's. James, due to his adoration of his brother, would refuse to accept the position. He is the de facto King of Scotland under Charles II (oldest of the brothers) anyway, as Charles II didn't care about Scottish matters (not the same character as the real Charles II). James is far from the succession anyway, due to Charles and John's many children. Some Scottish and English rebellions actually happen after Charles II converts to Catholicism in 1672. James played an in important role in getting the Lowland nobility and Scottish Parliament to cooperate with Highlander soldiers in putting down the rebellions and also served as one of the leaders of the Scottish Army during the rebellions.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

I was wondering if I should kill Gustavus Adolphus in the fictitious Anglo-French War (1625-1638). He died in 1632 in real life in the Thirty Years War that was already over ATL. Then I wondered if I should kill any historical figures or rise (more) non-historical figures to prominence in fictional wars.

Also, I'm deleting the Iroquois scenario, because the Gunpowder Plot scenario is basically the definite scenario at this point. I can always find a copy of the Iroquois scenario if I want to go back to it.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Still waiting for a response to my previous post's first paragraph.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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I'd have to go read up on him, but as I've got history coursework to be getting on with among other things I'm a little tied up at the moment. You can if you want to, it's just that I don't really care much either way (yet: if I get round to reading up I might find something else to change my mind).
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Notes on Gustav and the situation of Poland:
Gustav II Adolph, commonly known in English as Gustavus Adolfus, was considered one of the biggest personalities of the Thirty Years War. He fought lots of wars against Poland (Gustav's father, the Lutheran Charles IX, deposed his older brother, the Catholic Sigismund III, King of Poland/Grand Duke of Lithuania, from the throne of Sweden.) In his early years, he also won astounding victories against Danes and Russians who thought his young age would make his country an easy target. He entered the Thirty Years War due to economic reasons and as a war of Swedish expansionism. His goal was to unify all of Protestantism, both Lutheran and Calvinist, under a Evangelical Union with himself as the secular head. He tolerated Catholics but was deeply religious. Gustave would probably have gone on to be one of Charles I's major competitors as leader of Protestantism in ATL and would probably fight a war to split Poland between himself, German client nobles, Russia and whoever else would join him. Most nobles preferred not to associate with him until it was clear that he was their only choice, but he might seem attractive as Charles I promotes unity between Christians of different sects in his later reign. His main rival within Protestantism in real life was Denmark, who are reluctant allies (and very close family) of the ATL British (who overshadow the Danish). Poland, which had begun persecuting all of its non-Catholic citizens starting in the reign of Sigismund III, was seen as a dangerous enemy to the German Protestants, Russians, Danes, Swedes and Ottomans. These groups, minus the Ottomans vied with Poland for control of the Baltic. The Ottomans, Polish and Habsburgs fought for influence in Hungary, Romania and Moldova. The Danes and Swedes vied for control of German Protestants (who mainly wanted independence from each other and larger powers) while the Ottomans supported any European force that was aligned against Russian, Polish and Habsburg influence. The Ottomans and Russians were frequently distracted from unleashing anti-Habsburg hell by wars with Shiites. On one hand, a large campaign against Poland might be interesting, as this time the HRE can't intervene without splitting itself apart. Therefore HRE will probably continue the policy of neutrality from the Anglo-French War). It fits into a continuing pattern of Protestant wars completely wrecking traditional Catholic power in a scale much larger than OTL. The German and Danish princes would probably not join, while I'm not sure what the British, who want as much competition in the Baltic as possible to ensure that no one controls the trade routes there, might do in the end. The Dutch, who have similar economic policies in the Baltic, might even fight on the Polish side.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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So from your description (good work there, by the way) it seems to me like we have two possible options. Either GA stays alive and Charles gets further embroiled in wars on the continent, either allied with or opposed to GA. Perhaps Charles tries to exercise his own influence on the German protestants as well (e.g. through his brother-in-law Frederick, fifth Elector Palatine). If we then put in a war in Poland, if the HRE tries to intervene then it'll probably split apart and perhaps England might regain some lands on the continent again (not much chance of that, mind).

Alternatively, we kill GA, which frees up a space within Protestantism of the devout secular leader for Charles to fill, again further embroiling him in wars on the continent (in OTL James sort of filled this role but generally refused to be dragged into the Thirty Years War, despite his daughter being married to the Elector Palatine Frederick; A more devout and crusading Charles might do otherwise).
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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The HRE post-1624 (ATL end of the Thirty Years War) probably won't intervene. If Gustav Adolf dies, I have no idea what the next big European conflict might be, but without the closure of thePEace of Westphalia there wouldn't be an era of peace. Gustav Adolf is the only real alternative with in the ATL to Charles I to a leader of Protestantism. Everyone who was a contender in real life before Gustav Adolf had either ended support for political Protestantism (even if remaining religious Protestantism) or ends up reluctantly backing Charles I. The thing is that Charles I loses interest in the continent and the Protestant cause in general after seeing how well disestablishment works. The big unknown is what France does after its utterly humiliating defeat in the recent Anglo-French war in which a large part of their country becomes an independent entity with the French king as its ruler in name only, while France is forced into an unwanted military alliance with Britain. France basically lost its position as the big challenger against Habsburg domination. With the loss of the Netherlands and the disastrous situation in the HRE, the Habsburgs aren't really that powerful either. The British are neither capable of nor interested in becoming the top European power, while the Ottomans are also busy. Sweden can't become the new top power on its own because of a lack of funds and population. Poland-Lithuania is extremely big and powerful, but too disorganised and indecisive to maintain its power. The Ottomans are too stretched out to fight both the Shiites, rebellions at home and the Christians. Russia was so backwards that historians don't consider it as a part of Europe in that era. Sweden, Russia and Denmark, all keen to carve Poland before the other two do, as well as France, have the best motives for conflict. Charles I would support his Danish relatives if Sweden attacks them, but won't go and protect them if they start an invasion in far away lands. France's best shot at regaining power is to somehow get a huge chunk of Italian and German territory without actually getting into a fight with the HRE. I don't see how they can do that, but they will try their best at it. They may also want to buy land from other countries and start making trade posts in rich areas (India and Africa).
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

So I have Sweden and the Ottomans invading Poland-Lithuania, with the Swedes targeting Livonia and the Tatar raiders targeting Podolia. The Prussians are openly secretly cooperating with the invading Swedish forces because they will get crushed if they support the Poles (also, the elector/duke ties to Sweden). I wonder where the non-Tatar elements of the Ottoman army will have as their goal if they are avoiding a war with the Habsburgs: Kiev, Lviv or somewhere else? The eventual goal is to seize Vilnius and Kraków.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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So if I understand correctly, the goal is to have Native American states in the present day, or European states in North America dominated by Native Americans? That sounds really similar to something like Nunavut or the Navajo reservation. Or maybe a post-colonial state like Congo or Indonesia. The common thread in any region under partial or complete native authority is demographics. In Asia, settler colonies never took off on a large scale, for many reasons. In Africa, they were limited to relatively temperate areas in southern Africa and the eastern highlands, and they were quickly drowned out by large native populations, especially where independence lead to white exodus (we'll call this moment when Europeans no longer found settler colonies worth pursuing "the finish line" for native states). Eastern North America, however, is a very different place. It is relatively well suited to European settlement, presented very limited demographic competition (even before the epidemics), and contained no complex states capable of resisting European agendas. The Spanish, in full view of the envious British, were establishing sugar plantations in the Caribbean four hundred years before "the finish line," and the French almost beat the English to colonizing what is now eastern North America in Quebec. Natives driving Europeans into the sea is sadly nonsensical. The subjugation of African kingdoms many times more populous and well equipped shows that Europeans could not be repelled if they really wanted the land. The most promising idea is that Europeans remained relatively uninterested in the land until crossing "the finish line," basically turning much of North America into Nunavut. But how realistic is this? Religious refugees from England didn't flee one specific leader or event; their exodus spanned generations. And what about the numerous prisoners who were sent to the colonies? How long would England ignore gains by the Dutch, or the French, especially given the commercial value of tobacco, timber, furs, and other products coming out of the region?

There are numerous enemies to this alt history plan. One is demographics: Pushing the epidemics back is a drop in the bucket since Europeans quickly outnumbered the most optimistic pre-contact population estimates anyway. Another is economics: you need a wide variety of powerful people in London to ignore personal financial and political gain, and stay that way. I don't see the timely assumption of a certain prince doing all of that.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Did you go to the Google Doc (link posted many posts earlier) and read the current scenario before you posted? The religious problems kind of quiet down with a possibly sustainable solution. The British do colonise the Americas, but colonisation of the mainland happens at a much slower rate (although it starts rapidly, dotting almost the entire coast between St. John's and South Carolina with small villages by 1614 before cooling down). Most of the colonisation is focused on the Caribbean.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by Hydroeccentricity »

Sorry, I only read the thread. But I assumed all the relevant information was here. In any case, I doubt very much that cooling Puritan discomfort in England is going to make a huge difference. There is still money to be made on the continent, and European rivals busy gobbling it up. Colonies were peopled by more than just religious fanatics (and of the religious refugees, many were Catholic, Jewish, Quaker, or other groups who couldn't all be happy in England at the same time because humans are assholes). Did England stop having criminals in your scenario? Yes, England sent plenty of criminals and indentured servants to Barbados, but in our world, British colonization of the Caribbean and the mainland were not mutually exclusive. Britain's Caribbean holdings were deemed more profitable and more strategically important even as thousands of migrants were pouring into the mainland colonies. And remember, you don't need to put a dent in white immigration; you need to virtually eliminate it. Trying to prevent all of this with a policy shift in Whitehall is like trying to prevent the Scramble for Africa by killing off Leopold of Belgium. You need a really tremendous change to overcome the demographic and economic forces pushing for white domination of the continent. Are beaver pelts poisonous in this timeline or something? Does tobacco taste like kimchi farts?
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Hydroeccentricity wrote:British colonization of the Caribbean and the mainland were not mutually exclusive. Britain's Caribbean holdings were deemed more profitable and more strategically important even as thousands of migrants were pouring into the mainland colonies. And remember, you don't need to put a dent in white immigration; you need to virtually eliminate it. Trying to prevent all of this with a policy shift in Whitehall is like trying to prevent the Scramble for Africa by killing off Leopold of Belgium.
The simultaneous settling of both with a focus on the Caribbean still happens. You underestimate the impact of policy on immigration during colonisation. The government ultimately reviewed and decided who can immigrate or even set up colonies at the beginning. Royal grants being necessary for colonisation continued to be a thing, but eventually laws were used instead of special case-by-case inspection of each ship. In the althist, the abolition of royally granted monopolies in England, which all real life American colonies were before the 18th century, makes initial immigration even faster. Disappointment over the lack of gold and news of the lack of it essentially creates an economic setback for the colonies as the "Americas craze" takes a big PR dip. The lack of willingness to curb Caribbean settlement in order to curry favour with Spain means that many of would-be immigrants would go to the Caribbean as their first choice - especially since gold is found on some islands. The king's anti-English attitudes would lead him to curb colonisation both on the mainland and in the Caribbean so he could grant land there to Scottish nobles, who barely populate their colonies. Ireland and Guyenne eventually follow. Religious immigration is also less of an issue. The colonial population of the mid-17th century America is actually higher than OTL, but growth and immigration happens at a slower pace as well. The population of America in 1790 might be half of OTL.

I'm trying to mainly protect the Western US from loss of native culture and language. I forget, but I think actual political autonomy and/or Eastern US native cultures and languages surviving is just a bonus if we can achieve it. If we need to, we have already accepted a possibility of a multiple POD althist, but I prefer to use as few PODs as possible.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Moved the doc to a folder: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... W1BRGVKMVk
In the folder there also is a new doc I started which is supposed to be about the culture and history of the colonies.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Posted a new section on the new doc on slavery in the Scottish Caribbean. It could become the basis for a quasi-social democratic system. Also a lot on the music and the creole of the Scottish Caribbean.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Interesting stuff, and the phonology of Bonni Tok is also intriguing, but with the latter there are a couple of points I would like to query? Firstly, why does the language lack /l/ when all of the input languages bar Fante have it? Secondly, why is the vowel system so imbalanced? I'm guessing it's an English carry-over, but even so, it wouldn't take that much to morph the system to resemble an East-African language more, and in a creole-like set-up like what's being proposed here I'd probably expect that more.

Also, when you say this:
These groups [the original Caribs and Amerinds] have been completely assimilated into the black ethnicity and disappeared.
you mean that there's no Garifuna people/language, and that you are effectively proposing this as the counterpart to Garifuna *there*?
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by jmcd »

This is a very promising premise, and is going in an interesting direction.

One little nitpick however:
Scottish Caribbean dialect, spoken in the Lesser Antilles. This variety is unique in that it has no native speakers - it is acquired by Scots-speaking white children as they grow up. The Scottish influence seems to be mainly from Lanarkshire and Lothian. (no /r/ at all, no loch-lock merger)
Thankfully, you said there wasn't the loch-lock merger, because it's irrelevant to anything prior to the 21st century IRL. In a scenario where Scotland has acontinued independent worldwide prescence, I can't see such an assimilatory sound change ever appearing. I suggest ignoring modern Scots in looking at this alt history scenario, instead focussing on older Scots. A Textual History of Scots would be good reading material. A description of Older Scots can also found on http://www.dsl.ac.uk
Last edited by jmcd on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

This based off a real situation. Amerind slaves from the mainland were sold in the Caribbean and they completely disappeared, and Caribs disappeared in areas Europeans settled. Garifuna developed in St. Vincent, where there large areas of the island under complete native control. Garifuna might still appear. Also, I'm an opponent to the concept of counterpart cultures in fiction.
Frislander wrote:Firstly, why does the language lack /l/ when all of the input languages bar Fante have it? Secondly, why is the vowel system so imbalanced?
I based it on the phonology of Powhatan, the closest language to Carolina Algonquian I could find. Carolina Algonquian was a big influence on the early development of this creole before black people were imported en masse.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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mèþru wrote:This based off a real situation. Amerind slaves from the mainland were sold in the Caribbean and they completely disappeared, and Caribs disappeared in areas Europeans settled. Garifuna developed in St. Vincent, where there large areas of the island under complete native control. Garifuna might still appear. Also, I'm an opponent to the concept of counterpart cultures in fiction.
OK, I do agree somewhat. There's a place for counterpart cultures, but not really in alt-hist like this.
mèþru wrote:
Frislander wrote:Firstly, why does the language lack /l/ when all of the input languages bar Fante have it? Secondly, why is the vowel system so imbalanced?
I based it on the phonology of Powhatan, the closest language to Carolina Algonquian I could find. Carolina Algonquian was a big influence on the early development of this creole before black people were imported en masse.
I get what you're saying, but still if the influence of this substrate is strong enough to remove /l/ then the combined influence of both that and the African immigrant would surely be enough to even out that vowel system.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

Frislander wrote:I get what you're saying, but still if the influence of this substrate is strong enough to remove /l/ then the combined influence of both that and the African immigrant would surely be enough to even out that vowel system.
Okay, I'm not that good with creoles. I only remember bits and pieces of my thought process regarding the vowels, so you can change it as you fit. Just keep all of the currently written vowels.

@jmcd: Thanks! I'm kind of using both Middle and Modern Scots, because this during the transitional period between the two (early to mid 17th century, when the boundary is 1700)
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