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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:12 pm 
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I feel like the original purpose, however, is to preserve the culture of a fictional Algonquian people in Montana made up by Frislander. I have stated my reasons for why the Vikings could not colonise the area earlier in this thread. If there is no solution for the natives of Montana, then we must handwave facts in creating one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:18 pm 
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I suppose an alternative scenario is that they're on a reservation with a rapidly moribund language like the other Native Americans--but that's kind of depressing to conlang for. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:19 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
I feel like the original purpose, however, is to preserve the culture of a fictional Algonquian people in Montana made up by Frislander. I have stated my reasons for why the Vikings could not colonise the area earlier in this thread. If there is no solution for the natives of Montana, then we must handwave facts in creating one.


I didn't intend it to be the sole reason, but it does have some priority. Also, if anyone wants to make an a-posteriori Native-American language in this alt-hist they are entirely free to do so (in fact, I'd really like that).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:51 pm 
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No POD explains all these additional languages, and any sensible ones would mean some historical tribes would not exist or have lower populations. The whole existence of these languages is very Bethisadesque. Might as well get rid of plausibility and make our own Ill Bethisad .

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:20 pm 
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I think a viable native north america - if possible at all - probably does require a much earlier POD (though see below). Three possibilities spring to mind that people might want to think about:

1. A Viking north america (a north american Russia). Perhaps motivated by internal disputes in Scandinavia, or an invasion of viking lands by some other power? Vikings could easily end up swamped by a native underclass eventually. There would be interesting differences from a later colonisation, too: presumably the spread would be by rivers and coasts.

2. A forgotten north america. People just don't bother colonising it. After all, there wasn't anything interesting there. Changes in Europe might remove the religious impetus for English colonisation, which would be a big start. Or, at least, limit it to a few small colonies that never become large or independent enough to spread. Particularly if coupled with a bit more Viking contact early on, this could give native groups a bit of time to recover from the measles before the gold rushes (etc) start. Essentially a 'softer', slower difusion early on, and then presumably a victorian 'scramble for america' (because those guys didn't need reasons to invade places...).

3. What about a halfway house for that, where the Louisiana Purchase never happens? Could it be possible that the French just don't bother settling much, the Spanish/Mexicans don't bother much either (except maybe coastal california), and the interior remains simply a wilderness of surviving native tribes, tribes expelled from America (who might well in turn conquer the natives west of the mississippi), european adventurers and religious colonists, etc? Eventually somebody will take over, but it might take a while...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:56 pm 
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Salmoneus wrote:
I think a viable native north america - if possible at all - probably does require a much earlier POD (though see below). Three possibilities spring to mind that people might want to think about:

1. A Viking north america (a north american Russia). Perhaps motivated by internal disputes in Scandinavia, or an invasion of viking lands by some other power? Vikings could easily end up swamped by a native underclass eventually. There would be interesting differences from a later colonisation, too: presumably the spread would be by rivers and coasts.

2. A forgotten north america. People just don't bother colonising it. After all, there wasn't anything interesting there. Changes in Europe might remove the religious impetus for English colonisation, which would be a big start. Or, at least, limit it to a few small colonies that never become large or independent enough to spread. Particularly if coupled with a bit more Viking contact early on, this could give native groups a bit of time to recover from the measles before the gold rushes (etc) start. Essentially a 'softer', slower difusion early on, and then presumably a victorian 'scramble for america' (because those guys didn't need reasons to invade places...).

3. What about a halfway house for that, where the Louisiana Purchase never happens? Could it be possible that the French just don't bother settling much, the Spanish/Mexicans don't bother much either (except maybe coastal california), and the interior remains simply a wilderness of surviving native tribes, tribes expelled from America (who might well in turn conquer the natives west of the mississippi), european adventurers and religious colonists, etc? Eventually somebody will take over, but it might take a while...


For option 2 I've had an idea, one based on history I've seriously studied: the Gunpowder Plot succeeds and kills king James. Prince Henry, who seems to have been more committed to the Protestant cause than his ditherer of a father, succeeds before his untimely death *here*. This avoids the reogn of Charles, which saw large amounts of puritans emigeate to flee from his imposition of Laudianism. The colonies are then seriously diminished both in numbers and also in religious vigour, as there isn't the same influx of fervent puritans as there was *here*, possibly leading to some colonies failing. The territories would probably still come under colonial rule at some point, as that is nigh-unavoidable, but the lack of a strong influx of early immigrants would be helpful I feel.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:11 pm 
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So uhh is the Gunpowder Plot followed up by Guy Fawkes traveling back in time and assassinating Ferdinand of Castile or

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:44 pm 
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Spain could not expand so far to take the land from the Americans. I imagine the Virginia colony and several English Catholic colonies would be set up instead. With the absence of English colonisation, the Dutch become the hegemonic power of the seas. England becomes more involved in Europe. The problem is that Henry would be too weak and young to take such control in the country at coronation and would die before his regency finishes. The regency would probably be composed of people loyal to James I, so there wouldn't be a lot of change except for persecution of Catholics due to the gunpowder plot. Then the throne would pass to King Charles.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:09 pm 
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So if Spain wouldn't take the continent because there would be English colonies in America then why bother with changing the Gunpowder Plot, the point of which was to prevent there being English colonies in America?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:32 pm 
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I think that the Gunpowder Plot idea might work better then I thought.
Read http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/ci ... n_01.shtml, which can serve as a basis. We go with the route that the plotters failed to seize power after the explosion of parliament. The person who controlled Charles I would become the ruler of Britain. At the time, Charles was under the care of Sir Robert Carey. Luckily, a bit of searching allowed me to find the man's memoirs: https://ia802705.us.archive.org/22/item ... regoog.pdf

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:44 am 
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mèþru wrote:
Spain could not expand so far to take the land from the Americans. I imagine the Virginia colony and several English Catholic colonies would be set up instead. With the absence of English colonisation, the Dutch become the hegemonic power of the seas. England becomes more involved in Europe. The problem is that Henry would be too weak and young to take such control in the country at coronation and would die before his regency finishes. The regency would probably be composed of people loyal to James I, so there wouldn't be a lot of change except for persecution of Catholics due to the gunpowder plot. Then the throne would pass to King Charles.


Actually, unlike Edward, Henry was a pretty fit boy, and grew up to be quite intelligent and politically aware, and certainly would have been a far better king than Charles was. He only died in 1612 because he caught typhoid fever, probably from swimming in the Thames; I'm presuming this doesn't happen. His reign would probably lead to England getting involved in the Thirty Years' War against the Hapsburgs (James refused to get involved because he was seeking a Spanish match for Charles, while his daughter Elizabeth was married to Frederick, Elector Palatine, leader of the Anti-Hapsburgs): this may have had an effect on the course of the war similar to the involvement of Sweden (though I can't say for sure as I haven't studied the course of the war in too great detail). Henry would also have been a more astute commander than Charles (who permitted Buckingham to Lord High Admiral, thus permitting the disastrous naval expeditions at La Rochelle and Cadiz, as well as giving the go ahead for Count Mansfeld's expedition). The more radical protestants in England would have been more satisfied with this, as they were keen for England to be seen to be fighting the Catholics, thus further contributing to reducing emigration.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:56 am 
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According to the first link of my most recent post, Henry would have died along with his parents. Also, he was only 11 at the time he died.
Charles would be 4 at the time, so there would plenty of time for him to develop a different world view than in real life (your parents being blown up by terrorists tends to change perspective a lot. Just ask Harry Potter.)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:31 am 
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I don't think four-year-olds can generally tell the difference between terrorists and serial killers or any other such thing.

---------

Having the Native American polities stay in a realistic althist is difficult, but, if a solution is found, I expect the European colonisation of most of the rest of the world would have been a great deal harder.

Maybe more bickering in Europe causes greater wars between the European powers, leaving the Americas less well-attended to? A bunch of Portugal-Spain wars for example?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:24 am 
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  1. He'll learn when he gets older.
  2. He can understand at that age that there was an organised murder of his parents.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:14 am 
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There doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion of the simplest way to avoid total European domination of the Americas--i.e., don't have everyone die of disease ten minutes after Columbus shows up.

Take the Inca, for example. 60-90% of the population died from smallpox or other European diseases. One of those was the current Sapa Inca (the dude in charge), which led to a giant civil war. The Spanish showed up less than a year after the war theoretically ended, when tensions were still high. In a land ravaged by disease and divided by war, it's not surprising the Spanish were able to take advantage of the situation and seize power. But imagine disease hadn't killed over half the population. Imagine they weren't in the middle of a civil war and were still united (as much as the Inca Empire ever was) under a single ruler. Things could've turned out quite differently.

I highly doubt avoiding disease alone would be enough to totally wipe out European influence in all of the Americas (especially considering there weren't really Inca-like nations in what's now the US), but IMO it gives them a much better foothold than trying to claw power back hundreds of years later. It's easier to hang on to power to begin with than try to get it back later.

One thing I've considered is, what if plagues decimated the Americas a century or two before the Europeans showed up? As we know from the Black Death, such plagues can force dramatic social and political change, and it could also have forced Americans to figure out quarantines, etc. that would've helped when European diseases arrived. Figure out some way to make these plagues lead to more unified, centralized governments in the Americas that are better equipped to withstand European diseases, and that could be a place to start.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:16 pm 
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Really the only way to go about that, though, is to either handwave that the Native Americans had immunity to diseases they had never encountered, or go back and bolster the population of Vinland so that horrible foreign diseases wrack the New World in the 11th century instead of 16th.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:21 pm 
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Maybe I'm too late to the party, but I just wanted to say the only thing I can see at such a late date that might make the native americans able to withstand the might of early us imperialism would be a strong european ally investing heavily in them as a march. a stronger mexico could do the trick, or a russia unwilling to allow coast-to-coast expansion of the americans, maybe the french? I don't know, but without a heavy, and I mean heavy influx of war material technical experts and economic support I don't see the yankees not steamrolling them all the way to cascadia.

weren't the yanks in the early 1800s at war with the brits and canucks? maybe a britain interested in revenge could protract the blockade against the us and deviate part of its immense economic power into support for the native americans... hell, worked for me in a game of eu4 I played once :P

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:10 pm 
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Torco wrote:
Maybe I'm too late to the party, but I just wanted to say the only thing I can see at such a late date that might make the native americans able to withstand the might of early us imperialism would be a strong european ally investing heavily in them as a march. a stronger mexico could do the trick, or a russia unwilling to allow coast-to-coast expansion of the americans, maybe the french? I don't know, but without a heavy, and I mean heavy influx of war material technical experts and economic support I don't see the yankees not steamrolling them all the way to cascadia.

weren't the yanks in the early 1800s at war with the brits and canucks? maybe a britain interested in revenge could protract the blockade against the us and deviate part of its immense economic power into support for the native americans... hell, worked for me in a game of eu4 I played once :P

...Yes, but Britain ended the War of 1812 because they had Napoleon to worry about. I think the likeliest material supporters of the Native Americans would be the Dutch (who contributed to the initial rise to power of the Iroqouis--but why would they at this late point with no holdings in the New World?) or the French (but remember they are also embroiled in war thanks to Napoleon). The problem with Russia is that they never took an active interest in colonizing the New World. Sure, they claimed Russia, briefly claimed the Oregon Territory (but that was pretty nominal--Britain and America were the only real contenders there), and did some trading along the Pacific coast, but they never really invested in it (and, by the way, the Native Americans hated them--even as late the 1950s the Tlingit were suspicious of an American anthropologist until she cleared up that her last name was French not Russian). And of course Spain has been bankrupt since the Spanish Armada fiasco. I really can't imagine a European power with both the resources and the motivation to arm the Native Americans simply to curb American expansion--England and France might have the motive, but their resources were engaged elsewhere, and the Netherlands might have the resources but why would they bother?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:17 pm 
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With the scenario in the document I made (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zz- ... _h_SlGszpw, viewable by all and editing can only be done by self-declared contributors that have Google accounts), I took that Americans will eventually expand into the West for granted. The scenario I have minimises the damage. I say that colonialist powers (whether European or not) would inevitably discover the Americas and settle deep into its heartland. Which power affects the colonisation of the Americas. With England's vast sea power and separation from Europe by water, unless it becomes Tokugawa-level isolated (which I say is possible but unlikely) it would eventually control the east coast of the US and Canada. That doesn't mean it would be the only colonial power in that region or the power that settles the region. England could simply take over someone else's heavily populated colony. My belief is that the best hope for the Native Americas is the one I gave in the second paragraph on my first post on this thread (which also explains why Vinland is not viable): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=44344#p1120064
We already discussed a lot about why I am wrong in the third paragraph and have a lot of commenters who are pro-Vinland. Please refrain from posting on either of those unless if you can provide something new to the conversation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:17 pm 
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alynnidalar wrote:
One thing I've considered is, what if plagues decimated the Americas a century or two before the Europeans showed up? As we know from the Black Death, such plagues can force dramatic social and political change, and it could also have forced Americans to figure out quarantines, etc. that would've helped when European diseases arrived. Figure out some way to make these plagues lead to more unified, centralized governments in the Americas that are better equipped to withstand European diseases, and that could be a place to start.


Maybe land a handful of Basque fishermen on the shores of North America, at a convenient point in time. Blown off course, hungry, weakened and diseased. They just might have carried a few of the most devestating of European diseases, and met the right people to spread them. Or Breton fishermen. Or Scots fishermen. Or just throw some fishermen onto those shores. But it's always the Basques you hear about, so why not?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:07 pm 
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If we're going to take for granted that a Western power will colonize America, why not make it one that had a history of dealing more fairly with the Native Americans than Britain or especially Spain? That leaves us with France, the Netherlands, or Sweden. Let's call Sweden a non-player--they were crowded out first by the Netherlands, then by England. That leaves France and the Netherlands. The Netherlands did, of course, have a significant colonial empire in the Caribbean and Southeast Asia, but they were quickly forced out of North America. For a time, the Dutch were probably the second greatest naval power in Europe after England; if England could somehow be forced to suffer a major naval defeat, the Dutch could conceivably become the colonizers of the New World. There are still problems however: the Dutch and French were more fair with the Native Americans because they were vastly outnumbered. If in this new scenario the French and Dutch establish major colonies in the New World just like the English did, why shouldn't we assume that in time they'd also proceed along similar lines that the English did (recalling that, for all their problems, the English were still more fair than the Americans ultimately were). So basically, we're back to square one: European conquest of the New World and marginalization of the indigenous peoples was basically inevitable as of 1492; the only question was which power would become the dominant power--and as long as that power is not Spain (which seemed to be a little more comfortable with genocide than the other powers), I don't see that which power ultimately succeeds makes much difference.

tl;dr: Any solution that results in the survival of the Native Americans is going to be handwavey.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:40 pm 
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After the expulsions from Spain and Portugal, many desperate Jews, Muslims and genuine converts to Christianity that were suspected by Spanish authorities fled to the New World. As the Spanish Inquisition came, many died or had to convert to Christianity. In a possible ATL, those in northern Mexico fled by the tens of thousands in 1590. Most settled in Texas, while some led by the family of Luis de Carvajal y de la Cueva went as far north as Perry County, Missouri (which they named New Zion or something like that, but in Ladino). Most of the Texas settlements were discovered by the Spanish. The Jewish inhabitants were slaughtered while the New Christians died defending the former. Other villages remained in secret, similar to the mocambos of Brazil. New Zion became a powerful nation in the Americas which enslaved neighbouring tribes. The language of New Zion at the time was Ladino, which did not diverge enough from Spanish to be a separate language. I am not sure what happens, as such a polity would greatly change the political landscape of the Eastern US and Canada by the time of Jamestown. The group would have very few settlers (although they are very experienced ones) and would possibly be surrounded by enemies due to its enslavement of the surrounding peoples. I would venture to say that the population is at least 70% Jewish and the rest Catholic. Lack of contact could lead to interesting situations because a lot of important changes in the Church happened after the Catholics left. The polity would generally avoid European contact, but the only Europeans they would know about are those south of Texas.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:38 pm 
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I didn't think of early exposure! That could work even better, but I think that one crucial reason for why the Black Plague was so devastating was because it was introduced through several routes and was sometimes reintroduced to a recovering area. There were also lots of wars and trading that spread the plague, much more than that of pre-contact US. Another factor was the persecution of minorities that were thought to have caused the plague. When people live amongst their own tribes, the minorities don't exist.

New Zion is now more specifically in the Red Rock Landing Conservation Area, and is spelled Sion. It is founded by 341 settlers, of which 255 are Jewish and 86 are Christian. The colonists anger their neighbours by engaging in raids to capture slaves. An agreement was made within the society that slaves who convert to Judaism (which never happened) or Christianity (which happened somewhat often) would become free members of the society if they knew Ladino and could be confirmed by committee to be a true believer rather than one that converts for status. The converted natives soon outnumbered the Europeans. Alarmed Jews tried to raise the amount of children in their families, but they could not afford the costs of bearing all these children. They resolved to ban slavery, but Christianity already became the majority religion of New Sion. The nation engaged in many wars over slavery, land and hunting rights with neighbouring tribes. With guns, germs and steel the settlers managed to conquer more territory than they could guard. Powerful chiefdoms and gradual centralisation similar to that of the Iroquois began forming to conduct deals with New Sion. Over time, New Sion and its neighbours, no longer engaged in raiding, made peace. The white Christians intermarried with the natives, leaving a heavily mixed population of native Christians and an ethnically pure group of Jews. The inhabitants introduced European goods, technology and Catholicism to the region early. They also brought exposure to diseases, leaving the surviving tribes near the Mississippi and eastwards immunity. When the English settled Jamestown, Chief Powhatan realised that these mysterious people belonged to the same religion as the troublemakers on his western borders, he had no hesitation in massacring the inhabitants. (A second settlement, Algernon, was founded somewhere else away from the Powhatan confederacy, perhaps on Kent Island.) By 1623, all of the natives of the Illinois Country knew how to work iron, while the Massachusetts tribe used bronze and had converted to Catholicism by the time the Plymouth colonists arrived. Massive plagues destroyed native society, which restructured into Hawaiian-style chiefdoms with strong social stratification. In 1626, an expedition by Frenchmen to discover the source of these technologies and Catholicism arrived at New Sion. The inhabitants refused to accept French rule or French fur trade monopoly, but agreed to commercial ties and an alliance against Spanish and English expansion. Spain and France rushed to seize these Catholic lands before other powers could. Local chiefs, who were already learning how to make European goods on their own, refused to be part of anyone's territory. A grand coalition of tribes near New Sion and the Great Lakes kicked out Europeans from the Ohio River Valley and the Mississippi River Valley. The Spanish and French changed their tactics, trying to purchase land and be respectful to the natives. In this way, the Spanish shut the English from the Gulf Coast. New Sion convinced many chiefs in the Mississippi River Valley to join their land and established forts to keep the Spanish out. They also established a settlement at the coast. The population of the colony before this point was predominantly Europeanised Amerinds who were Catholics. After this, it became more like a chiefdom confederacy with a predominantly non-Europeanised Amerind population following traditional religions. In trying to enforce New Sion laws on the new inhabitants, the older group of citizens sparked a civil war. It was resolved with the independence of most of the new acquisitions. Some were seized by Spain during the war and never given back. The coastal settlement was retained, as well as the forts along the Mississippi. The Jews in New Sion encouraged Jews abroad to emigrate. Many others, seeing the opportunities of the nation, also settled. A diverse mix of Sephardi Jews (most of the colonists), Ashkenazi Jews, Muslims (very few) and Europeans of various nationalities come to New Sion.
The Catholicism that came from New Sion diverged from that of the Church, being much more humane and compassionate. It rejected the crucial idea of non-believers going to hell, making it heretical in the eyes of the Pope. In response, the Catholic Amerinds of the US in non-Spanish territories formed their own church: The American Catholic Church. They adopted some Protestant teachings as well. About half of the original European Catholics and less among their descendants stay Roman Catholic. By 1637, enough Jewish immigration happened to make Judaism the majority religion of the nation again. The country separated church and state.
In the early days of the colony, all metal was needed for useful appliances. Paper notes began being used in lieu of coinage. These paper notes eventually replaced coinage as the currency of New Sion. The idea of paper money spread to Europe, where it was adopted by nations which had financial issues.
The Ladino language of New Sion is called Sionese. It was not distinguished by its native speakers from Mexican Spanish until the wars of colonial expulsion. It is written in a Latin script alphabet and is somewhat closer to Spanish (especially OTL Nuevo Leon Spanish and Extremaduran) than other dialects of Ladino. Due to these differences as well as lots of borrowing from neighbouring languages it is not mutually intelligible with any other dialect of Ladino and is not mutually intelligible with most Spanish dialects. About 30% of Sionese comes from Amerind languages, about 10% from English and 5% from various languages brought by immigrants (Yiddish, French, German dialects, Breton, Arabic). This is excluding the common borrowings that occur as international words, if there are any, as well as English borrowings already existing in Spanish.
The Iroquois League got guns at the same time as many of its traditional enemies learned iron-working. The Beaver Wars were a much more balanced war, which ended in 1648 by Sionian mediation by giving the Iroquois the right to hunt, but made the Iroquois need to pay tribute to local chiefs every year that they hunted in the Illinois Country.
Because Virginia is more to the north than in real life, George Calvert gets a grant to a land to the south of Virginia rather than above it, which is called Carolina (covering about 49,000 acres of North Carolina). Those who were interested in a Carolina colony were given some of the land the Virginia Colony was supposed to take, as well as the land south of Calvert's colony. Like the real life Carolina colony of 1629, these other colonies are never actually settled, leaving just the Puritan colonies, Virginia and Carolina.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:14 am 
Smeric
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I'm adding the New Sion Proposal to the document.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:28 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
Please refrain from posting on either of those unless if you can provide something new to the conversation.


So you've taken over not only Frislander's conworld idea, but now also the thread/board itself? Well, good luck enforcing that...


Torco/Zaarin: I wonder what would have happened in north america without Napoleon. Say: Wolfe never conquered Quebec; as a result, the French do well enough in the war that they aren't bankrupt, so that Louis isn't forced to call a parliament, or at any rate is able to stay on top of it, so there's no Revolution and no Napoleon, and no Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars.

Perhaps without French help, the Colonies lose the War of Independence - or perhaps the French help too much, and the Colonies fall into the French sphere of influence. Either way, by the early 19th century, the French aren't forced to sell off central north america to the US, while the British are able to really apply themselves in the War of 1812 - perhaps they retake the colonies; perhaps there's a lengthy series of wars throughout the first half of the 19th century.
In any case, the French don't settle that much in the interior (and eventually lose Quebec) - there are a few French states in the southern Mississippi area, but the interior is ruled via the local nations (and some pushed out of the US). These eventually ally with the US to throw out the French.

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