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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:36 pm 
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Salmoneus wrote:
mèþru wrote:
Please refrain from posting on either of those unless if you can provide something new to the conversation.


So you've taken over not only Frislander's conworld idea, but now also the thread/board itself? Well, good luck enforcing that...


Torco/Zaarin: I wonder what would have happened in north america without Napoleon. Say: Wolfe never conquered Quebec; as a result, the French do well enough in the war that they aren't bankrupt, so that Louis isn't forced to call a parliament, or at any rate is able to stay on top of it, so there's no Revolution and no Napoleon, and no Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars.

Perhaps without French help, the Colonies lose the War of Independence - or perhaps the French help too much, and the Colonies fall into the French sphere of influence. Either way, by the early 19th century, the French aren't forced to sell off central north america to the US, while the British are able to really apply themselves in the War of 1812 - perhaps they retake the colonies; perhaps there's a lengthy series of wars throughout the first half of the 19th century.
In any case, the French don't settle that much in the interior (and eventually lose Quebec) - there are a few French states in the southern Mississippi area, but the interior is ruled via the local nations (and some pushed out of the US). These eventually ally with the US to throw out the French.

This makes sense to me. The French never really focused much on colonization beyond the fur trade. In the long term, I think expansion pressure is still going to result in the US pushing into the interior, legal or not; however, if France was keen on holding onto its possessions, I could see them being more likely to arm and advise the Native Americans than going to war directly--which is exactly the scenario we were looking for.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:21 pm 
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I've basically taken over the conworld due to a lack of input from Frislander. He can reject my ideas and I'll make new ones. I'm not taking over the board. Making rules is still up to Zompist. Enforcing them is till up to him and the moderators. I posted that statement because people were clogging the thread with redundant POD suggestions (mainly regarding Vinland). I should probably have elaborated.

If the French stayed in Quebec, the expensive policy of settling the territory with Catholics would probably add to the crushing debts of their monarchy. The Americans would still pay taxes to the British for the war, so they might start a revolution anyway. It is likely that the American Revolution would occur later (most ;likely pushing the French one to later as well). It is an interesting idea that I'd like to look more into.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:11 am 
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mèþru wrote:
I've basically taken over the conworld due to a lack of input from Frislander. He can reject my ideas and I'll make new ones. I'm not taking over the board. Making rules is still up to Zompist. Enforcing them is till up to him and the moderators. I posted that statement because people were clogging the thread with redundant POD suggestions (mainly regarding Vinland). I should probably have elaborated.

If the French stayed in Quebec, the expensive policy of settling the territory with Catholics would probably add to the crushing debts of their monarchy. The Americans would still pay taxes to the British for the war, so they might start a revolution anyway. It is likely that the American Revolution would occur later (most ;likely pushing the French one to later as well). It is an interesting idea that I'd like to look more into.


Part of my lack of input is to do with a slight deficiency of relevant historical knowledge and the fact that I currently cant post unless there is a phone signal.

That is an interesting idea: a double revolution against both the French and the English.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:51 am 
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Unlikely, as the French Revolution happened due to Jacques Necker concealing massive debts from spending money on fighting the American War of Independence. If there was no such scandal, the revolution might have happened somewhat later.

I'm interested in making the Sionese language for the Sion scenario, but I'm a bit unsure about what language the settlers of New Sion would actual speak. Currently I'm leaning on late 16th century Extremaduran Ladino with a heavy Spanish influence, but I have no idea what that translates to in terms of grammar and lexicon. I also need information on Osage, Illinois and Qupaw, as Sionese borrows heavily from them in the early 17th century. The language also borrows a bit from the 17th century New England dialect of English and an assortment of various Algonquian and Iroquoian languages in Illinois Country and the east coast.
I also want to invent an Iroquoian language for a fictional people who lived around Philadelphia and Princeton (later migrate to the Ohio Country and become a nation of the Iroquois before the Tuscarora). Should I make these languages in a separate thread?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:07 pm 
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I don't think it is possible that the French could hold onto the Illinois Country even if they held Quebec. The French strategy was to exchange areas they conquered in European for American possessions, so the POD should probably be based in Europe instead. An exchange would also further alienate the British colonists from Britain.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:36 am 
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mèþru wrote:
I didn't think of early exposure! That could work even better, but I think that one crucial reason for why the Black Plague was so devastating was because it was introduced through several routes and was sometimes reintroduced to a recovering area. There were also lots of wars and trading that spread the plague, much more than that of pre-contact US. Another factor was the persecution of minorities that were thought to have caused the plague. When people live amongst their own tribes, the minorities don't exist.

New Zion is now more specifically in the Red Rock Landing Conservation Area, and is spelled Sion. It is founded by 341 settlers, of which 255 are Jewish and 86 are Christian. The colonists anger their neighbours by engaging in raids to capture slaves. An agreement was made within the society that slaves who convert to Judaism (which never happened) or Christianity (which happened somewhat often) would become free members of the society if they knew Ladino and could be confirmed by committee to be a true believer rather than one that converts for status. The converted natives soon outnumbered the Europeans. Alarmed Jews tried to raise the amount of children in their families, but they could not afford the costs of bearing all these children. They resolved to ban slavery, but Christianity already became the majority religion of New Sion. The nation engaged in many wars over slavery, land and hunting rights with neighbouring tribes. With guns, germs and steel the settlers managed to conquer more territory than they could guard. Powerful chiefdoms and gradual centralisation similar to that of the Iroquois began forming to conduct deals with New Sion. Over time, New Sion and its neighbours, no longer engaged in raiding, made peace. The white Christians intermarried with the natives, leaving a heavily mixed population of native Christians and an ethnically pure group of Jews. The inhabitants introduced European goods, technology and Catholicism to the region early. They also brought exposure to diseases, leaving the surviving tribes near the Mississippi and eastwards immunity. When the English settled Jamestown, Chief Powhatan realised that these mysterious people belonged to the same religion as the troublemakers on his western borders, he had no hesitation in massacring the inhabitants. (A second settlement, Algernon, was founded somewhere else away from the Powhatan confederacy, perhaps on Kent Island.) By 1623, all of the natives of the Illinois Country knew how to work iron, while the Massachusetts tribe used bronze and had converted to Catholicism by the time the Plymouth colonists arrived. Massive plagues destroyed native society, which restructured into Hawaiian-style chiefdoms with strong social stratification. In 1626, an expedition by Frenchmen to discover the source of these technologies and Catholicism arrived at New Sion. The inhabitants refused to accept French rule or French fur trade monopoly, but agreed to commercial ties and an alliance against Spanish and English expansion. Spain and France rushed to seize these Catholic lands before other powers could. Local chiefs, who were already learning how to make European goods on their own, refused to be part of anyone's territory. A grand coalition of tribes near New Sion and the Great Lakes kicked out Europeans from the Ohio River Valley and the Mississippi River Valley. The Spanish and French changed their tactics, trying to purchase land and be respectful to the natives. In this way, the Spanish shut the English from the Gulf Coast. New Sion convinced many chiefs in the Mississippi River Valley to join their land and established forts to keep the Spanish out. They also established a settlement at the coast. The population of the colony before this point was predominantly Europeanised Amerinds who were Catholics. After this, it became more like a chiefdom confederacy with a predominantly non-Europeanised Amerind population following traditional religions. In trying to enforce New Sion laws on the new inhabitants, the older group of citizens sparked a civil war. It was resolved with the independence of most of the new acquisitions. Some were seized by Spain during the war and never given back. The coastal settlement was retained, as well as the forts along the Mississippi. The Jews in New Sion encouraged Jews abroad to emigrate. Many others, seeing the opportunities of the nation, also settled. A diverse mix of Sephardi Jews (most of the colonists), Ashkenazi Jews, Muslims (very few) and Europeans of various nationalities come to New Sion.
The Catholicism that came from New Sion diverged from that of the Church, being much more humane and compassionate. It rejected the crucial idea of non-believers going to hell, making it heretical in the eyes of the Pope. In response, the Catholic Amerinds of the US in non-Spanish territories formed their own church: The American Catholic Church. They adopted some Protestant teachings as well. About half of the original European Catholics and less among their descendants stay Roman Catholic. By 1637, enough Jewish immigration happened to make Judaism the majority religion of the nation again. The country separated church and state.
In the early days of the colony, all metal was needed for useful appliances. Paper notes began being used in lieu of coinage. These paper notes eventually replaced coinage as the currency of New Sion. The idea of paper money spread to Europe, where it was adopted by nations which had financial issues.
The Ladino language of New Sion is called Sionese. It was not distinguished by its native speakers from Mexican Spanish until the wars of colonial expulsion. It is written in a Latin script alphabet and is somewhat closer to Spanish (especially OTL Nuevo Leon Spanish and Extremaduran) than other dialects of Ladino. Due to these differences as well as lots of borrowing from neighbouring languages it is not mutually intelligible with any other dialect of Ladino and is not mutually intelligible with most Spanish dialects. About 30% of Sionese comes from Amerind languages, about 10% from English and 5% from various languages brought by immigrants (Yiddish, French, German dialects, Breton, Arabic). This is excluding the common borrowings that occur as international words, if there are any, as well as English borrowings already existing in Spanish.
The Iroquois League got guns at the same time as many of its traditional enemies learned iron-working. The Beaver Wars were a much more balanced war, which ended in 1648 by Sionian mediation by giving the Iroquois the right to hunt, but made the Iroquois need to pay tribute to local chiefs every year that they hunted in the Illinois Country.
Because Virginia is more to the north than in real life, George Calvert gets a grant to a land to the south of Virginia rather than above it, which is called Carolina (covering about 49,000 acres of North Carolina). Those who were interested in a Carolina colony were given some of the land the Virginia Colony was supposed to take, as well as the land south of Calvert's colony. Like the real life Carolina colony of 1629, these other colonies are never actually settled, leaving just the Puritan colonies, Virginia and Carolina.


I like this idea, but I don't understand why the Jewish settlers would keep on speaking Latino when they could revive Hebrew. Also, I'm not sure you give them enough of a global historical role. Obviously you have New Sion inventing paper money, being the first to divide church and state and unifying various tribes and saving them from colonialism, but why not have them articulate a stronger foreign policy and intervene in Europe? I guess you haven't got that far yet.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:13 pm 
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Why would they revive Hebrew? The whole romanticism and return to Zion was done later. While it may be called Zion, New Sion is not Zionist. I think that country would either speak Ladino, Yiddish, Spanish, English or French. Whichever of the languages it speaks, it will definitely borrow extremely huge amounts of vocabulary from Native languages.

Paper money already existed as a concept in Europe, but paper notes were not considered money. They were instead more like IOUs. The Europeans already knew foreign lands which adopted paper notes as legal tender (East Asia), but a Europeanish country using this method would probably make it more attractive. New Sion more or less assimilates the various tribes, which adopt many European customs and clothing as well as a form of Catholicism. The natives do keep some of their customs, but tribes, clans and ethnicities disappear during the time of slavery, making the Amerinds of New Sion a single ethnic group. The languages they speak survive in the large amounts of loanwords in Sionese. New Sion has no interest in protecting the tribes near the European colonies. Only the major tribes involved in the Mississippi Valley fur trade are of concern.

As for a strong foreign policy, Sion has no interest in Europe, except minimising damage to Jews. With almost no navy to speak of, New Sion is also unable to act in Europe. It is the most powerful polity in the Americas north/east of New Spain, but it does not have the inclination to seize vast amounts of territory which it can neither settle or prevent others from settling in. Yes, I haven't gotten that far, but New Sion would not be a major global player in the 17th century anyway.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:20 pm 
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I suspect Yng was mocking your clichés through irony...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:05 pm 
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From what I've written about New Sion, here's what seems cliche:
It does some a bit like an althist wank, but given that the Sionians have advanced technology and stuff, they pretty much lord over the Natives until internal politics leads to the end of slavery. Slavery is what basically caused new Sion reason to expand. Amerind citizens, as well as immigrants, gave New Sion numerical advantages over the colonies.
The idea of separation of church and state prior to the 17th century had basis in many ancient philosophies, early Christian writings, treaties between European countries and the Pope and Lutheranism's Two Governments doctrine. The founders of New Sion belong to two different religious groups: Jews (vast majority) and Roman Catholics. Many of two are closely related to each other. The Jews don't want to be persecuted, but have no interest in proselytising. It seems natural for there to be a de facto separation of church and state, or at least an agreement to recognise the Roman Catholic Church and Castilian Rabbinical Judaism as legal religions. In 1636 of OTL, Roger Williams founded Providence Plantations with freedom of religion.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 am 
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OK, I've been thinking more deeply about the repercussions of killing off James I, and I've come to the conclusion that it could work. Simply put, James is now not constantly trying to keep the Church of England following the "middle way" like Elizabeth: the church will now certainly swing in favour of the more Puritan end of the spectrum (and thereby there would be no Spanish match for Charles). Also, Charles is now not trying to push the Church the other way towards Arminianism, and will probably be moulded into a strong Protestant by whoever his Lord Protector is. All those things which made the monarchy so unpopular (James further worsening the monarchy's finances by overspending, the rise of Buckingham, the Forced Loan) will now not take place, and Charles is likely to be much more in tune with the national mood in general.

This results in two things: 1, there is nowhere near the same level of dissatisfaction with the monarchy among Puritans and Parliamentarians as there was in OTL and 2, there will not be the large influx of strict Puritans with a strong dislike of the British monarchy into the colonies. The latter would also drastically reduce the likelihood of early independence as in *here*. While this would not be absolutely perfect for the natives, anything which makes the US more like Canada is, in my opinion, frankly an improvement.

As for the Sion idea, while the separation of church and state is plausible, I think also that a measure of Judeo-Christian syncretism is not only possible, but almost certain.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:17 am 
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I doubt it. The Christians among the founders of New Sion are genuine converts who, if they really wanted to, have the opportunity to convert back to Judaism. They didn't take that opportunity. The Jews definetly have had enough with being forced to adopt Christian customs. I think the trend in Sionian Judaism would be to purism. What is more likely is a light degree of Catholic-Amerind syncretism (basically, the American Church). The American Church definitely does not borrow religious beliefs from the Amerinds, but it does borrow their customs (like the two-spirit gender and drinking black drink) and some Protestant ideas (like the rejection of Catholicity and the idea of each man being able to interpret the Bible for themselves). The Church in essence, is a Puritan/Anglicanism/Catholicism/Amerind syncretic form of Christianity.

As for the Gunpowder Plot:
I wrote:
I think that the Gunpowder Plot idea might work better then I thought.
Read http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/ci ... n_01.shtml, which can serve as a basis. We go with the route that the plotters failed to seize power after the explosion of parliament. The person who controlled Charles I would become the ruler of Britain. At the time, Charles was under the care of Sir Robert Carey. Luckily, a bit of searching allowed me to find the man's memoirs: https://ia802705.us.archive.org/22/item ... regoog.pdf
I really don't feel like sifting through Carey's memoirs, though. You can make the proposal on the document and I will comment on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:58 am 
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I'm going to heavily revise th Sionian scenario. After reading a bit about metallurgy, I decided that the Amerind nearby New Sion learn bronze working, but not iron working. Also, I may have had extremely unrealistic ideas of how large New Sion's pre-immigration population is.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:08 am 
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mèþru wrote:
I'm going to heavily revise th Sionian scenario. After reading a bit about metallurgy, I decided that the Amerind nearby New Sion learn bronze working, but not iron working. Also, I may have had extremely unrealistic ideas of how large New Sion's pre-immigration population is.


Yes, though perhaps Sion's "Jewish" heritage and general religious tolerance might make it attractive to Jews from other parts of Europe to emigrate to.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:33 am 
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Jewish immigration is already a given. I just had in mind completely unreasonably large figures for the Amerind slaves/citizens in New Sion. Amerinds still make the majority before immigration, and Jews still make the majority after immigration.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:06 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
I'm going to heavily revise th Sionian scenario. After reading a bit about metallurgy, I decided that the Amerind nearby New Sion learn bronze working, but not iron working. Also, I may have had extremely unrealistic ideas of how large New Sion's pre-immigration population is.


Where are they getting their metals from? Most mining in Missouri/Illinois seems to be lead and coal. Unless they're importing iron, copper, tin, etc.--they could get copper from the Lake Superior region, but by this time period, I don't think anybody was mining it anymore. (the Chippewa, at least, don't have a history of it, and white people didn't start seriously mining there until the 1840s, IRL) And I think the copper was mostly traded as finished goods, not raw metal, but I'm not sure on that. (e.g. as jewelry, tools like adzes and fish hooks, weapons like arrowheads and spear points...)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Various ores are traded in exchange for shoddy iron tools and ornate decorations. The most important and vital part of the Sionian economy is the ore for metal trade. Sionians also control most of the North American trade by being the middleman between Europe and the Amerinds. The Amerinds are taught to look for ores and to mine by the original settlers.
Since you seem to know more about location of ore in North America than I do (specifically, something at all), it would be helpful if you could direct me to some map of the resources available.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:08 pm 
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Frislander wrote:
mèþru wrote:
I'm going to heavily revise th Sionian scenario. After reading a bit about metallurgy, I decided that the Amerind nearby New Sion learn bronze working, but not iron working. Also, I may have had extremely unrealistic ideas of how large New Sion's pre-immigration population is.


Yes, though perhaps Sion's "Jewish" heritage and general religious tolerance might make it attractive to Jews from other parts of Europe to emigrate to.


Yeah, that's a good point. I can imagine quite a lot of European Sionists making aliya to New Sion. I still think it would be easier if they had a shared language though, and it seems to me that a revived Hebrew would really fit the bill. What do you think?

Edit: Maybe a kind of Hebrew-Indian mixed language? That could be a really cool althist conlanging project!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:16 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
Various ores are traded in exchange for shoddy iron tools and ornate decorations. The most important and vital part of the Sionian economy is the ore for metal trade. Sionians also control most of the North American trade by being the middleman between Europe and the Amerinds. The Amerinds are taught to look for ores and to mine by the original settlers.
Since you seem to know more about location of ore in North America than I do (specifically, something at all), it would be helpful if you could direct me to some map of the resources available.


I don't know that much, I'm afraid! Mostly I just know a little of the history of mining in Michigan, as it's my home state. Here's a basic summary of what I know/was able to confirm through Googling:

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan and parts of Minnesota and Wisconsin (basically, the region around Lake Superior) have significant deposits of iron and copper. The iron wasn't as immediately accessible, so it wasn't discovered and mined until the 1800s, but the copper lay close to the surface and was (relatively) easy to extract. (I say "relatively" because they were literally hammering at it with stone tools, which has got to be exhausting work!) Copper was mined there starting several thousand years ago. It wasn't molded, but was heated/hammered into shape and used to make jewelry, tools, and weapons that were traded extensively. (I believe artifacts have been found as far away as Louisiana!) The copper there is extremely pure, so they never came up with refining techniques or anything like that.

Anyway, eventually the copper mining slowed down (I imagine they'd taken out most of the really easy stuff) and mostly ended up as just jewelry, rather than tools. By the time the Chippewa (Ojibwe) showed up, apparently nobody was doing significant mining anymore. (not sure when this was, exactly. Pre-European-contact, AFAIK.) All the way back to the time of the French in the 1600s, some Europeans heard about the copper, but didn't really do much about it. I think there were a couple of aborted attempts to mine it, but they never went anywhere until the 1840s... probably because it was so far away and so hard to get to. Finally, in the 1840s people realized just how much copper was up there, and it kicked off a mining boom. (Wisconsin and Minnesota had copper mines too, although I think only Minnesota still has operating ones.)

Iron was discovered by accident, I think it was surveyors or somebody whose compasses kept getting thrown off until they finally realized there were massive iron ore deposits nearby. As far as I know, nobody before this point ever mined or even knew about the iron deposits. (this would've been around the same time as the copper mining rush)

As for Missouri and Illinois--I just found that out by googling "missouri mining" and similar terms.

Another issue with moving metal around--how do you transport the stuff? I have no clue how the ancient Americans did it, but in modern times, it's pretty much just boats, taking the ore down to the Lower Great Lakes where it's processed in steel mills right on shore. Overland, either you need people to physically carry the stuff, or if you're going to use wagons, you'd need reasonably decent roads (not a cheap or easy exercise!), and it'd be quite the lengthy journey... weeks, maybe?? If you're going to do it by boat and the boats are larger than canoes, then you'll need to build locks at the St. Marys River (the first IRL one was in 1798) because of the rapids, then go around through the Straits of Mackinac to Lake Michigan, down the Illinois River, and finally to the Mississippi to that settlement. (and let's pray everyone doesn't die in the process; there are literally thousands of shipwrecks in the Great Lakes. The first full-sized sailing ship on the lakes (Le Griffon in 1679) was also the first full-sized sailing ship to be lost with all hands on the lakes.)

Hmm, perhaps they could take it overland to the south shore of the Upper Peninsula, and then take it by boat--but I'm going to be honest, this all sounds extremely unlikely. That is a LOT of infrastructure for a pre-industrial society. Even if they realized there was copper being traded from somewhere, even if they arduously figured out where it was coming from, even if they somehow managed to transport the stuff... the logistics are just mind-boggling.

EDIT: Here's the major iron deposits. I have no clue about iron/copper deposits in Canada, in case you're wondering why I didn't say anything about Ontario.

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Last edited by alynnidalar on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:19 pm 
Smeric
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alynnidalar wrote:
mèþru wrote:
I'm going to heavily revise th Sionian scenario. After reading a bit about metallurgy, I decided that the Amerind nearby New Sion learn bronze working, but not iron working. Also, I may have had extremely unrealistic ideas of how large New Sion's pre-immigration population is.


Where are they getting their metals from? Most mining in Missouri/Illinois seems to be lead and coal. Unless they're importing iron, copper, tin, etc.--they could get copper from the Lake Superior region, but by this time period, I don't think anybody was mining it anymore. (the Chippewa, at least, don't have a history of it, and white people didn't start seriously mining there until the 1840s, IRL) And I think the copper was mostly traded as finished goods, not raw metal, but I'm not sure on that. (e.g. as jewelry, tools like adzes and fish hooks, weapons like arrowheads and spear points...)

Trade in native copper was pervasive throughout North America from Pre-Columbian times, and many tribes IRL got wealthy on the copper trade. Tin or arsenic would be more problematic. In some regions, Native Americans also utilized native iron, but native iron is rare in North America outside of the occasional meteorite. I recall reading about the Powhatans using it in small quantities in jewelry and tattooing implements; the northern tribes of the PNW also utilized iron from Asian shipwrecks for making adzes (plus bamboo, which they considered a highly valuable treasure and used to make hair ornaments). Note that this was not Native American ironworking, it was simply utilizing pieces of raw iron (or pre-made nails and what not from Asian shipwrecks).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:41 am 
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I found out that the Missouri Lead Belt used to have iron mines. The problem of iron, copper and lead is solved. Still need a source of tin (there's a little in the Lead Belt, but I'm not sure if it is enough). Not vital, but useful in trade with Europe: significant amounts of silver and gold are found in the Lead Belt.

The city of New Sion is also close to Arkansas, Illinois and Kentucky, which probably have their own resources. Whatever vital metals cannot be found in high enough quantities can probably be gained by teaching mining to various tribes and trading with them. If Amerinds refuse to give access to resources known to exist on their lands, there is also the option of war.

For a better idea of where the original city is, it is located about here.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:46 am 
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Since Frislander isn't editing the document, I'll add the Gunpowder Plot proposal for him.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:21 am 
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mèþru wrote:
Since Frislander isn't editing the document, I'll add the Gunpowder Plot proposal for him.


Sorry, I completely forgot: thanks anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:46 pm 
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I'll also add a bit of my own ideas if you have no objections.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:51 am 
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I have gone as far as I could think of (for now) with the Gunpowder Plot. I still think that there would be colonies, but, without the Civil War and religious persecution of Puritans, I think that the colonial population would remain very low.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:33 am 
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mèþru wrote:
I have gone as far as I could think of (for now) with the Gunpowder Plot. I still think that there would be colonies, but, without the Civil War and religious persecution of Puritans, I think that the colonial population would remain very low.


That's what I was aiming for with it.

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