Native American survival scenario

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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by Frislander »

mèþru wrote:Okay, I'm not that good with creoles. I only remember bits and pieces of my thought process regarding the vowels, so you can change it as you fit. Just keep all of the currently written vowels.
By this do you mean keep the orthography and change the phonemes?
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

No, you can change both. I'm just asking you to not remove any of the phonemes, only add.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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mèþru wrote:No, you can change both. I'm just asking you to not remove any of the phonemes, only add.
OK, I think I know what you mean. I'll do a bit of tinkering.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

The loch-lock merger doesn't occur in Scots (maybe not even in Northern English, not sure), but it occurs in all Traatɥŋ varieties except for the one in the Scottish Caribbean.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Evened out the vowels into a standard 7-vowel-plus-schwa system, which given the influences I feel it would naturally evolve into. I've also put /t͡s/ in brackets and added /d͡z/ because I wonder whether these should be true phonemes, because 1) none of the proposed input language have just /t͡s/ and no /d͡z/ except Ewe, and even there they're not distinct from the postalveolar counterparts. So I think that they'd only be present at most in certain dialects/"higher register" speech, and most would probably merge them with the postalveolars.

The romanisation of the vowels, on the other hand, is not entirely settled and you're free to alter it if you see fit.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Maybe /ʊ ʌ/ exist as allophones? I want at least some relic of Algonquian in the vowels. /ʌ/ comes from short a in Powhatan (contrasts with /ɑː/ and is an allophone of /ä/. I remember that I thought /ɪ ʊ/ merge with /i u/, but then /o ɔ/ are raised to /ʊ o/ and /i u/ become /e ʊ/ in closed syllables. I completely forgot where /ä/ comes from. I didn't get into allophony on purpose by the way. I thought I'd leave it for other people to develop or just leave the language undeveloped. I thought the language would have a simplistic (C)V(C) phonolgy, but final /t/ + /s/ would become /t͡s/ so that it does not have to be separated. /d͡z/ would also fit. Maybe these could merge with postalveolars in rural dialects (aka the varieties with the most everyday usage) and then split again as an ongoing modern sound change based off of standardisation, with the merger being a marker of age.

Edit: changed <oo> to <u>
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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mèþru wrote:Maybe /ʊ ʌ/ exist as allophones? I want at least some relic of Algonquian in the vowels. /ʌ/ comes from short a in Powhatan (contrasts with /ɑː/ and is an allophone of /ä/. I remember that I thought /ɪ ʊ/ merge with /i u/, but then /o ɔ/ are raised to /ʊ o/ and /i u/ become /e ʊ/ in closed syllables. I completely forgot where /ä/ comes from. I didn't get into allophony on purpose by the way. I thought I'd leave it for other people to develop or just leave the language undeveloped. I thought the language would have a simplistic (C)V(C) phonolgy, but final /t/ + /s/ would become /t͡s/ so that it does not have to be separated. /d͡z/ would also fit. Maybe these could merge with postalveolars in rural dialects (aka the varieties with the most everyday usage) and then split again as an ongoing modern sound change based off of standardisation, with the merger being a marker of age.

Edit: changed <oo> to <u>
I switched /ə/ for your /ʌ/, partly for the purposes of the evening of the phonology I mentioned earlier: it can still definitely be present as an allophone of /ə/ if you want it, or as a marker of higher register. Also, if you're using <ɥ> for schwa in Traatɥŋ, then as a working thing let's have that for schwa in Bonni Tok as well, until we think of something better.

As for the origins of these vowels, I'd say the main source of /e o/ for me would definitely be the lowering of /ɪ ʊ/ plus the monophthongisation of /eɪ̯ oʊ̯/, however, you could pull it the other way and have the outcome be /ɪ ʊ/ if you wanted. /ɛ æ/ could merge as /ɛ/, while /ɑ/ could move forward: alternatively it is /æ ɑ/ that merge as /ä/.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

/ʌ/ probably represents /ʌ̈/ anyway, so I guess /ʌ̈/ can be the most common realisation of the phoneme, with higher and fronter realisations under certain conditions. <ɥ> is for reduced vowels, with STRUT vowels as the prototypical pronunciation.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Now I can remember that /a ɑː/ is the origin of /ä/.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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mèþru wrote:Now I can remember that /a ɑː/ is the origin of /ä/.
Good. That settles that question.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Can you think of a reason for having /ʊ/ without /ɪ/?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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mèþru wrote:Can you think of a reason for having /ʊ/ without /ɪ/?
Well, I'm sure there must be some reason, but it'd probably be fairly contrived given the scenario. The only systems I seen like this (Mongolian and maybe Manchu) also have vowel harmony, with /i/ being a neutral vowel while /u/ and /ʊ/ participate in the harmony in some way.

The problem is that if you have both /ʊ/ and /ɪ/ in a system, it's highly unlikely that a sound change on one won't affect the other. In my view if you want /ʊ/ without /ɪ/ you'd better have another sound change or two which produces an /ʊ/ but not an /ɪ/.
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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mèþru wrote:The loch-lock merger doesn't occur in Scots (maybe not even in Northern English, not sure), but it occurs in all Traatɥŋ varieties except for the one in the Scottish Caribbean.
Northern English varieties mostly lack the phoneme /x/, changing it into /f/ or zero like in more Southerly varieties.

Citation to the effect:"Ch [ = x] as in loch has disappeared all over the n.Eng. area, except in a small portion of n.Cum., of which the southern limit is a line stretching from Bewcastle to Longtown and Gretna"

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Re: Native American survival scenario

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When did the change happen?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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I presume it happened at the same time as it did further South: around the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Although it did depend on the area of the country at which point the consonant disappeared.

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Re: Native American survival scenario

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I think that more of Northern English might preserve /x/ than in real life then.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Yes, that would be realistic.

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Re: Native American survival scenario

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I had this big mega-post on what I'm writing and lost it. :(
It's an idea for a colony in South America, made as a reward to loyal Basque and Navarrese landowners (all of whom are ethnic Basques) during the Anglo-French War that ended in 1637 (Spain was on the losing side). The colony is ruled according to the laws of the fueros instead of the laws of Madrid, and the districts elect a council for the purpose of colony-related policy. Each rewarded landowner would additionally act as a governor in the area of the colony awarded to them. When the colony achieves independence (which it will, at some point, in a bloody three-way war that tore apart families), it will stretch from the southern coast of the state of São Paulo to Uruguay. I had much more that I'll add later.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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As a reward to loyal Basque landowners, Philip III of Spain (died 6 July 1640 in ATL) made a new colony of the Crown of Castile. This colony, however, was organised with an unusual degree of independence, almost like an English proprietary colony. The colony was subdivided into grants to be governed by each landowner (only one, Francisco Ibarra de San Sebastián, actually moved to the colony). The laws of the colony were made by a council elected by the governments of the Basque provinces as well as Navarre. The first settlement and the colony were both called Nueva Pamplona (OTL Cananéia, Brazil). Expansion was mainly to the south and west, covering Brazil south of São Paulo, most of Uruguay, as well as parts of Misiones Province (such as Iguazu Falls). The capital of the colony was San Xavier (OTL Curitiba, Brazil). The largest city is in ___ (OTL ___, Uruguay). The colony originally centered on Basque whaling and was therefore mainly coastal. Spanish farmers started raising cows and planting staple crops in the interior. Jesuits flocked to the colony, as the colonial authorities were very favourable to them and protected their missions. Basque (especially Bizkaian and Gipuzkoan dialects), Charruan (several languages of which some stay alive in ATL), Kaingang, Guarani, Portuguese and Spanish were all spoken in the area. A pidgin, based off of Basque-Icelandic Pidgin, Portuguese, Kaingang, Tupi and Guarani, was the originally the lingua franca of the region, but that status was replaced with Spanish in the 1730s to 60s. The Spanish spoken in the region was heavily influenced by the pidgin and by other languages, to the point at which it was only partially intelligible with other Spanish varieties. The new variety was called Pamplonés. When the colony gained independence (in a bloody three-way war that tore apart families), Pamplonés (written in an orthography with clear influence of both Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, as well as its own unique features) and Basque (written in a Spanish-style orthography and is a melting pot of multiple dialects) became co-official. Popular culture of the country sees the Pelotas River as the dividing line between two cultural areas: north and south (actually, it is more of a continuum and makes a terrible dividing line between the two due to the very “north” coast and the very “south” rural northwest). In the south, the Basques mainly settled in the coast. Portuguese influence is very weak, if it can be said to exist. In the north, Portuguese influence is moderate, while Basques settled both in the interior and the coast. The south is more populous, but the population is also more spread out. The north has more nature and the older, original granted land is there. Within the north, the eastern Iguazu River serves as a second divide. In the far north, Spanish influence barely exists, and much of the population knows Portuguese. At the extreme, the town of Nova Pamplona (note change in spelling), the country is an extension of the São Paulo metropolis. In the Portuguese of this country, atravessar o Rio Iguaçu means to switch between Portuguese and Pamplonese or vice versa. The country of Nova Pamplona is very religious and socially conservative, although the descendants of immigrants from Italy and Germany that came in the late 19th and early 20th centuries are pretty liberal.

These are rough (aka probably pretty off and with little thought) estimates for the 1950s
Native languages:
47.7% Pamplonese
23.2% Basque
18.7% Portuguese
5.0% Indigenous languages
4.6% Spanish
0.4% German (including German other than Standard)
0.2% Italian (including non-Italian Romance in Italy)
0.1% Other

Can understand:
98.8% Pamplonese
49.5% Spanish
42.1% Portuguese
32.9% Basque
11.1% Indigenous languages
10.0% Italian (including non-Italian Romance in Italy)
9.0% German (including German other than Standard)

Fluent:
84.3% Pamplonese
30.1% Portuguese
26.6% Basque
18.6% Spanish
3.7% Indigenous languages
0.8% Italian (including non-Italian Romance in Italy)
0.7% German (including German other than Standard)
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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A little on Pamplonese:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1myI ... -80kI/edit
Anyone interested in actually fleshing out the language? I'm not. The grammar is supposed to be somewhere between Uruguayan Spanish and São Paulo Portuguese with a lot of simplification. The words are intermediate forms between Portuguese and Spanish, but a lot of grammar and basic vocabulary comes from a descendant of Basque-Icelandic pidgin (which I don't have resources for beyond the little written Wikipedia because I didn't bother searching). There's also a lot borrowing from Guarani and Kaingang, on a level comparable to (but not as extreme as) Paraguayan. Did I also mention that at least two personal pronouns have lost the subject/object distinction and are derived from English? If you take on this language, email me at methru.glenpleksalutu at gmail.com and I'll add you to the list of contributors (with editing privileges added to all the docs I post here).
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Why would it be specifically Basque-Icelandic pidgin, and not just pure Basque? Why should a north-Atlantic pidgin spoken only in Iceland be transferred to the area south of Sao Paulo, when the Basque seemed more OK with just forming new pidgins wherever they went (see for instance that Basque-Algonquian pidgin was not based off of Basque-Icelandic pidgin)?
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Re: Native American survival scenario

Post by mèþru »

The first settlers spoke Basque-Icelandic pidgin and possibly included some non-Basques. I think it is very likely that Basque-Icelandic pidgin was a general pidgin for whaling in Europe during the Basque domination of that trade, given that it is mainly Basque, Dutch, Romance and English without much Icelandic. Also, a Romance language using English pronouns is too hilarious an opportunity to not take it.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Doc updated with a little more on the early part of the Polish war and some ideas I have France and Guyenne.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Again with a small paragraph on the Dutch and Spanish in Fujian and Taiwan.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Native American survival scenario

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Henrianne sides against the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars because of their alliance with the Erie, Scahentoarrhono and Wenro. The English sold weapons to the Iroquois. The Dutch sold weapons to both the Iroquois and that Iroquoian ethnicity I invented. The English and Dutch refused to stop selling weapons, but the English negotiated with the Iroquois to stop attacking the Erie, Henrianne and Scahentoarrhono and Wenro. This meant that the Beaver Wars were mainly constrained to north of OTL New York state.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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