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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:33 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:05 pm 
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American efforts go to regaining New York, which they do successfully do when a French fleet arrives in northern New Jersey. General Arnold joined Washington in a united force to reclaim New England, which soon became a quagmire when the retreating forces under General Howe failed to launch a successful counterattack but continued to hold their positions in New Hampshire and Maine until late 1780. The Americans coordinated with the French fleet daring attacks that gained them Rhode Island and the island Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia soon became an even deadlier quagmire as the British could easily raid the island, it was hard to reinforce, and the area was a major naval base. The Continental Army eventually abandoned the island but took mainland Nova Scotia (now called New Brunswick) in 1778 after occupying it for two months. A local Patriot militia successfully held the island until early 1780. Throughout the whole time, the British navy raided New England towns.
In 1778, the British began a Southern strategy quite different from real life. With the loss of the very important Nova Scotia ports, the ports of the Caribbean and the Floridas became the new base of British operations. While simultaneously reinforcing their forces in New England, they began a large army buildup in Florida, which wrecked havoc in Georgia. George Washington was called from the Northern campaign to relieve the South, while a third, very small French fleet (a second had been sent to reinforce New England) joined him. The British managed to give these forces crushing defeats, reducing Washington's men into one among many tiny guerilla forces of the Southern theatre by early 1780. One of the French fleets in New England was defeated and sunk at the same time. Luckily for the American forces, the Spanish declared war in 1779. The West Indies, in the meanwhile, became yet another quagmire situation as the islands continued to pass from British to American hands. The pro-Patriot islanders soon became uninterested in supporting either side, and the whole region eventually came under British rule. Much of the plantations, the main economic benefit of the islands, were destroyed, and all of the supplies of the islands were taken by the Patriots. Many West Indian colonists became refugees in New Orleans.
General Arnold retook the island of Nova Scotia in 1781. While most of his army stayed to reinforce New England, many, including himself, went to aide the American forces in North Carolina. Washington's army and many other guerilla groups were trapped in southern Georgia and South Carolina, with long distances of British controlled territory between the them. The Iroquois League is convinced to join the American side of the war and participate in the Western theatre. They also ratify the Articles of Confederation. A Spanish army coordinates several brief skirmishes with British that allow the Southern militias and Washington to escape and join Benedict Arnold. Washington renounces supreme command but stays a general. General Arnold leads a combined American and Spanish army to retake most of the Carolinas. In 1782, the Battle of Charleston caused the British government to give up. Even though the majority of the British army managed to retreat from Charleston, a truce was declared. By the time news of the truce was received in the Western theatre (August 1782), almost all of the Indian Territory north of the Ohio River was under Patriot or Iroquois control, and all of the area south of it was under Spanish control. Most of Georgia, all of the Floridas and all of the Carribean possessions of the British remained under British control.

The alternate Peace of Paris:
The Iroquois send a party of representatives with the American negotiators.
Changed terms:
Nova Scotia is recognised as part of the United States.
Loyalists who wish to remain/return to the United States will be permitted to reclaim confiscated land and possessions. Other Loyalists must receive compensation for their lost land and possessions. All slaves in the United States owned by Loyalists, whether their owners return or not, shall be either auctioned or freed by the decision of the each particular state. The slaveowners must be compensated in all states for the loss of their slaves.
Great Britain, the United States and Spain shall all maintain perpetual access to the Mississippi River.
The Indian Territory north of the Ohio River shall be given to the United States. An exact boundary between British North America and the United States at this territory is defined.
All of these concessions also apply to Vermont. Great Britain shall recognise that Vermont is a part of the United States which is under disputed status within the countries of the United States.
Unsettled areas of the Indian Territory south of the Ohio River shall be given to Spain.
East Florida stays with Britain.
The Dutch keep Negapatnam, but allow the British to settle and trade in Dutch India.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


Last edited by mèþru on Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:32 pm 
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:12 pm 
Smeric
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With all of the suggestions I am posting, this discussion is getting a bit too big. I suggest moving the project to some website (preferably a wiki). I can make a Google Site for the project (but you will need a Google account to edit it).

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:05 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:59 am 
Smeric
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I don't know code either. I learned a little bit of HTML, CSS and Javascript, but I forgot most of what I learned. I can probably learn PHP or whatever I need pretty quickly, as I pick up on this fast and have friends are great at coding.
The advantage of a Google Site is that no knowledge of coding is necessary. I have made such sites before; they are very intuitive and easy to use, but have very few features. If you want to use code, the sites are HTML, CSS and Javasript compatible.

EDIT:
We also need a name for this alternate history and the website.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:20 am 
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I found something even better than Google Sites: A free wiki hosting service without ads! It uses MediaWiki, the same software that Wikipedia uses, so there will plenty of tutorials and stuff on how to use it.
Link: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Miraheze

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:28 am 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:37 am 
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The Iroquois and other Amerinds still retained lots of power. With European guns, more advanced knowledge of pre-gunpowder warfare, better stealth and mobility, more advanced knowledge of the land, Amerinds could still be formidable fighters despite their population advantage. However, I imagine that overtime the Amerind states would become predominantly white. The better position of the colonists once united is the reason for why I am treating western expansion as an inevitability. The difference is that the Amerinds have better treatment in the legal system (although still facing discrimination outside of it) and retain more of their languages and culture. However, I am just one collaborator. I have yet to hear from Frislander about what direction the project will take.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:49 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:10 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:08 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:42 pm 
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I based the idea for moving to website off of the high growth rate in content which has slowed down by now. I am, however, making a Google doc to organise what we know so far. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zz- ... _h_SlGszpw)
Frislander and future collaborators (if they have Google accounts) should email me at methru.glenpleksalutu@gmail.com to request editing privileges.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:00 pm 
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I forgot about this. However, I still maintain that the Paraguay Amerinds had a stronger position as they were united in a common cause with the Jesuists. The Amerinds in North America constantly fought with each other and rarely united (many of the great anti-colonial alliances actually fought with the pro-colonial minority among Amerinds).

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:15 pm 
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What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:55 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:28 am 
Smeric
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I finished my proposal on the Google Document. It is pretty long, but it changes history so much that the US West might still be part of Spain by 2016 (Okay, that's unrealistic, but possible.)

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:05 pm 
Smeric
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I am extending my proposal as there is nothing else for me to really do in the alternate history until the parts of the proposal are debated and either accepted or rejected. Feel free to reject as much of it as you want.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:11 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:29 am 
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:58 am 
Smeric
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I see only two possibilities for surviving Native American polities:
1) As has already been mentioned, a more successful Viking settlement. In that scenario, the Viking Settlement is permanent, attracts more colonists, and stays in contact with Europe, importing medieval technologies and government structures into North America. Then these technologies and structures would have to be taken over by neighbouring tribes, creating entities that would be bound into the European state system.
2) A longer shot would be a more successful resistance of the Central and South American native empires. Both Cortes and Pizarro were lucky - if, say, Cortes would have died during the or if Pizarro hadn't caught Atahualpa, the conquest would have been much more difficult. I think these Empires still would have come under European overlordship - after all, almost the entire world did, even oriental countries that were as technologically advanced as Europe, or even more advanced, in the 15th century, but perhaps it would have been a more India-like situation, with client states instead of the total replacement of the indigenous elites and governement structures. But that Scenario wouldn't help the North American natives.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:10 pm 
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My two cents:

I agree with Salmoneus and Whimemsz that the Iroquois Confederacy is a nonstarter-- however, I recently learned on Wikipedia that there's this other country in North America, called "Mexico", which had dealings with the Native Americans over both a wider area and a greater duration than the United States. If you're going to construct your alt-history by only dealing with the American involvement, then you're jumping into the story halfway through and ignoring the more formative (and alt-historically fertile) era of Euro-Indian interaction that comprised the early Spanish period, back when two or three Indian tribes might have actually been able to form an effective resistance, especially if you're writing pathogenics out of the scenario which to be realistic is a sine qua non. (There had even been a Spanish mission just a few miles east of Jamestown, settled in 1570 and massacred one year later-- the Powhatans were almost certainly aware of it, if it wasn't them who did it.)

My suggestion would be to start with the Natchez. They were the most sophisticated civilization north of the Rio Grande, had a strongly hierarchical structure, at least one "city", dominant over other tribes, headed a large cultural area, etc. They were on the decline by the time Europeans showed up, but if you postpone their disintegration, make them immune to disease, allow them to acquire Spanish horses... they might well have amounted to something.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:22 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:19 pm 
Avisaru
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My knowledge of this isn't very great, but as I recall the Five Civilized Tribes weren't the Five Civilized Tribes until they were the Five Civilized Tribes... before then, the Seminoles didn't exist yet, the Apalachee were more powerful (as were the "Coosa" and the "Cofitachequi", whoever they are), and the other Muskogean tribes hadn't yet filled in the political power vacuum left by the slow disintegration of the Natchez-Mississippian culture. And if we're talking about the Spanish in Florida, then the people they'd be dealing with were the Calusa and Timucua (who we don't talk about anymore).

I don't think you're going to find anything to work with in the plains. Cabeza de Vaca got a good close-up look of that area before the diseases hit, and unfortunately didn't find any Great And Powerful Empires that you could use-- the Seven Cities of Cibola and Quivira turned out to be a couple adobe hut villages built on some rocks. And it was for-ever until the Europeans advanced further into the interior: for centuries Santa Fe and El Paso were (as a friend recently put it) pathetic little outposts situated at the absolute edge of the world.

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– The Gospel of Thomas


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