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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:44 pm 
Avisaru
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mèþru wrote:
Also, some Papuan languages lack a voicing distinction.


Yes, but not necessarily the ones in the immediate contact area (which btw I'm assuming is Halmahera since you're going off of Ternate Malay), nor do the other languages you're proposing as major sources of influence lack it either.

My source for this by the way is the World Phonotactics Database, which is probably the most comprehensive such database I know.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Halmahera actually would just use Ternate Malay. I mean the area of New Guinea. Some of Asmat–Kamoro languages, for example, lack voicing distinctions. The area where they live was already a place of trade between them and the peoples of Maluku.

The Ottomans retain the fortress and port of Sukhumi. An exodus of Muslim Abkhazians occurs to the Circassian coast, where they build new cities. A new eyalet is established with Tuapse as the capital. The remaining Muslim ethnicities not subordinate to Russia - the Adyghe, Balkar and Karachay - became subject nations but also highly autonomous defenders of the coast. The Nogais are split between several groups at this time, some of them being under Russian control, the rest being allied with the Crimean Tatars.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:16 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
Halmahera actually would just use Ternate Malay. I mean the area of New Guinea. Some of Asmat–Kamoro languages, for example, lack voicing distinctions. The area where they live was already a place of trade between them and the peoples of Maluku.


That's more reasonable, yes. Although even then Asmat at least features voiced stops as common allophones of the nasals so I'm still not entirely convinced. I guess you could get away with it, though my instinct then would be to merge with the nasals rather than the voiceless stops.

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The Ottomans retain the fortress and port of Sukhumi. An exodus of Muslim Abkhazians occurs to the Circassian coast, where they build new cities. A new eyalet is established with Tuapse as the capital. The remaining Muslim ethnicities not subordinate to Russia - the Adyghe, Balkar and Karachay - became subject nations but also highly autonomous defenders of the coast. The Nogais are split between several groups at this time, some of them being under Russian control, the rest being allied with the Crimean Tatars.


Interesting; cue Abkhaz-influenced West Circassian variety, or vice-versa (I should probably make an attempt at that).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Frislander wrote:
instinct then would be to merge with the nasals rather than the voiceless stops
Changed it
Probably the Abkhaz, Balkar, Circassians and Karachay talk to each other in Turkish. Also the east Circassians are included. I'm making Anapa the capital instead of Tuapse, so it is called the Anapa Eyalet.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Also the Ubykh language. They are ethnically Adyghe but speak another language. And the Abazin What will be interesting is that the Abkhaz of those who stay in Georgia becomes influenced by Georgian (mix of dialects from throughout the country), Mengrelian and Svan in a manner similar to what I did with Guelin, but on a much less drastic scale in regards to the phonology and with grammar simplification. The Abkhaz of those who leave will be considered (a) dialect(s) of Abaza. Since you seem to have interest in this language region, I'm sure you would be better at making up that language than me. I'll open a doc with some ideas for Abkhaz.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:32 am 
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The city of Gəncə is renamed Марияпо́ль after Tsar Alexi's wife Мария Ильинична Милославская. The Muslim population in the region continues calling it Gəncə to the present, but the city is never renamed. It becomes the economic center of the new Russian conquests, as it had more Russian settlement than Baku.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:18 am 
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The /y œ/ and long vowels were influences from a nearby Svan dialect. I can see why they might be only a dialectal feature, but they seem to me to be likely developments in some Abkhaz dialect. Since both Svan and Mingrelian have glides, I think Georgian Abkhaz should also have them. I had only labialisation and then a shift of the non-labialised vowels to the front to make things interesting. If you don’t like that, it’s not as big of an issue as the first two.

Some Old Believers find refuge in Lithuania but are eventually kicked out due to issues with the local Orthodox community. They then flee to the Crimean Khanate. During the Ottoman-Russian Wars, they fought on the Ottoman side. This helps discredit the Old Believers in the eyes of the public. The Old Believers in the khanate became known as the istreltsı, from стрельцы.

The Georgian Muslim and Georgian Christian community in the Ottoman regions bordering Georgia adopted their own standardisation of Georgian, based mainly on the Meskheti dialect (which is closely related to the Kartli dialect that Standard Georgian is based on). The Georgian community in Khuzestan has its own literary tradition based off of the Kakheti dialect and is unintelligible with the other standards but is mutually intelligible with Eastern Georgian dialects.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:17 am 
Avisaru
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mèþru wrote:
The /y œ/ and long vowels were influences from a nearby Svan dialect. I can see why they might be only a dialectal feature, but they seem to me to be likely developments in some Abkhaz dialect.


Actually thinking about it yeah they probably are, and I've now thought of a source for them, so they can go back in.

Quote:
Since both Svan and Mingrelian have glides, I think Georgian Abkhaz should also have them.


Fair, and tbh deleting them universally probably was a bit extreme, they can certainly stay initially.

Quote:
I had only labialisation and then a shift of the non-labialised vowels to the front to make things interesting. If you don’t like that, it’s not as big of an issue as the first two.


That is interesting sure but the already established patterns of allophony in Northwest Caucasian are generally central vowel heavy and the palatal consonants generate the front vowels, and I see no reason why Georgian Abkhaz shouldn't use that to create its own front vowels.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:51 pm 
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I wanted the orthography to be French based, but I'm not sure how to romanise the vowels beyond /i y u ø a/ being <i u ou œ a>

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:34 am 
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Old Azeri (an Iranian language related to Tati) dies out even faster than in real life due to the Ottoman and Russian forces finding Azeri Turkish much easier to communicate in.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Dorgon doesn't die in 1650. He continues to rule until 1654, when the Shunzhi Emperor raises a mainly southern Han Chinese army to end the regency. Dorgon voluntarily stepped down and was immediately arrested. He was convicted on the count of treason by the Deliberative Council of Princes and Ministers.The Shunzhi Emperor ended the following edicts of Dorgon:
  • Requiring Han Chinese to shave their heads and wear their hair as queues
  • Requiring all bureaucrats to wear Manchu clothing
  • Enslavement of commoners by the Bannermen
The Shunzhi Emperor's favouring of people from the south and Han customs leads to a lot of discontent. Many of those who supported the end of Dorgon's regency now wished for his return to power and rebelled. During all of this, the Shunzhi Emperor demands the Deliberative Council to publicly supportDorgon's execution. The council takes the Shunzhi Emperor hostage instead and forces him to make Dorgon a regional administrator.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:31 pm 
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During the early part of the 20 Years' War, the Dutch favoured the Qing and the Portuguese the Ming. The Portuguese started supporting the Qing when the Dutch switched to Portugal's side in the war in Europe. Both supported Dorgon. When Dorgon was released from arrest, he suggested the creation of a new government office to manage relations with the European powers; the office would staffed with his Manchu supporters even though the trade took place in the south. With Dutch naval assistance, the conquest of Guandong was finished by 1645. The Southern Ming were completely conquered by 1658. They then invaded Burma, which was hiding the Yongli Emperor. The Portuguese wanted to avoid confrontation, as Burma was more valuable as an independent trading partner and place for Portuguese to serve as mercenaries. The Burmese refused to listen to the Portuguese and kept Yongli. The Qing invaded and Portugal did not come to the defense of Burma. Large swaths of Burma were destroyed, and the Shan states were annexed by the Qing. In ATL, the capital stayed in Bago, which helped save the power of the dynasty because it was too far for the Qing to reach. Pindale staged a successful counterattack, pushing the Qing out of Inwa. The Yongli Emperor, however, had been found and killed by the Qing during the war. The Burmese agreed to peace with the Chinese, losing some of the Shan states. Lanna was permanently lost to the Ayudhaya Kingdom, who killed the tributary rulers.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:50 pm 
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On re-examination, I think Switzerland would not stay neutral in the 20 Years' War but join the side of Louis XIII/Louis XIV/Henry V/Louis XV.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:13 am 
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What's the 20 Years' War? I was assuming the Thirty Year's War (but shorter), but in that case, what's Henry V doing in there?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:09 pm 
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I mean Henri V. The Thirty Years' War ended in 1624 in ATL. The Twenty Years' War is from 1640 to 1660 (peace was signed in 1661, but the cessation of hostilities during negotiation was about a year long). During the war, Louis XIII dies in 1644. He has only one child in ATL, named Louis, who dies later that year. Gaston was in open rebellion against Louis XIII and XIV and was an enemy of Mazarin, so Mazarin and his allies skip over him and crown Henri II, Prince of Condé as Henri V. Anne of Austria and most of the remaining nobility switched to supporting Gaston after Louis XIV died. Henri dies in 1646. His son, Louis XV (le Grand Condé), is established as the only ruler of France and Guyenne by treaty. During the war, a group of Guyennese nobles maintained a secret correspondence with Phillip IV, offering to rebel and install Balthasar Charles as King of Guyenne. Bathasar was the son of Elisabeth of France, a sister of Louis XIII, and therefore the legitimate heir in Guyenne (but not in France) if Gaston was not considered legitimate. However, they wanted Balthasar to abdicate from his Spanish titles and renounce the Spanish throne. Philip did not agree to that condition, so nothing came out of the talks, and those nobles remained loyal to Henri, duc de Rohan (Supreme Governor of Guyenne).

Whether Switzerland joins depends on communication. I think a majority would be in favour of war. If at least one canton tells the rest that they will seek independence if they declare war, I'm sure that the idea would be scrapped in favour of just banning the sale of mercenary services to the Habsburg side. If they don't, I think somewhere around 20-16% of Switzerland will break off and ally with the Spanish.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:42 pm 
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I think Switzerland will stay out of this to make things simple.

I had a really long post with some ideas on southeast Asia, Dara Shukoh and Iran but lost it. I'll rewrite it later.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:02 pm 
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TIL about the Andalusian independentist conspiracy.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:55 pm 
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The Scottish Caribbean has a syncretic religion based mainly off of Reformed Anglicanism, Scottish Presbyterianism, Vodun and Akan religion. It resembles Winti but developed without contact.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Theodoor Pietszoon, a Beghard from Flanders, breaks off from the Catholic Church in 1663. He establishes a new sect of Christianity that allows priests to marry and be sexually active even after ordination and prohibits private property. It also only allows people to receive Church sacraments upon their 15th name day and has no monks, bishops, etc. The church is instead organised by a convention of priests which elect a first among equals to mediate in disputes. Religious matters are voted on by priests. The rules of the Third Order of St. Franics are required of all church members. It retains most other Catholic ideology and refuses to be associated with the Reformation. Theodoor Pietszoon was kicked out of his Beghard community and married a Beguine named Maria Matthysdochter. The sect stayed small, but some nobles with grudges against the Catholic Church from other countries came to hear Theodoor preach. The sect become known as Petranism, from his last name. The believers wear indistinct brown clothes. Their headquarters are in Ghent.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:44 pm 
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I think Ahmedabad will be the most populous city of the Mughal Empire. The lingua franca of the area of Sindh to Burma will be based off of some pidgin that has lower class Ahmedabad Gujarati as the superstratum and other Indo-Aryan languages as the substratum as well as a few borrowings from French. It will be written in a very phonemic script that branches off from the Old Gujarati alphabet or possibly is still the alphabet of Gujarati but is different from our world's Gujarati alphabet (like retaining the horizontal line above the letters). The script also uses versions of the West Arabic numerals that are modified to better fit with the strokes of the script. Some of the languages of the Indo-Aryan dialect continuum are called Hindavi with a similar but narrower definition than OTL Hindustani (not including Chhattisgarhi, Rajasthani and Bihari languages, for instance). Urdu refers to a Dari-based pidgin used by the military mixing many languages as well as military-specific slang. Delhi is considered a heavily Khariboli influenced part of the Braj dialect region. The Braj dialect of Agra is considered the prestige dialect of Hindavi. I'm not sure what I want to call the Gujurati-based creole. I was thinking of Amdavadi, meaning language of Ahmedabad. I don't like it though. I've rejected the term Hindustani.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:35 pm 
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India is a continent that extends from Balochistan and Khorasan to Sulawesi and the Philippines. It includes the historic lands of the Cham but not any other Viet area. It also includes Tibet and Yunnan. America is considered a single continent.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:32 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
I'm not sure what I want to call the Gujurati-based creole.

Garbaboli? :P


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:39 am 
Avisaru
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Well if it extends from Sindh to Burma then I'm guessing the main diffusion channel is the Ganges, so maybe Gangali?

Also when you say "America is considered a single continent", do you mean the whole of the Americas? And does your classification also mean that the Middle East but not "India" are part of Asia?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:10 am 
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It's the lingua franca, but I think it will only have native speakers in the area around Bharuch and Ahmedabad and maybe also in nearby parts of Rajasthan.
Frislander wrote:
Also when you say "America is considered a single continent", do you mean the whole of the Americas? And does your classification also mean that the Middle East but not "India" are part of Asia?
Yes to both.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:44 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
It's the lingua franca, but I think it will only have native speakers in the area around Bharuch and Ahmedabad and maybe also in nearby parts of Rajasthan.


Maybe Bharuchi then?

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