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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:21 pm 
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I've basically taken over the conworld due to a lack of input from Frislander. He can reject my ideas and I'll make new ones. I'm not taking over the board. Making rules is still up to Zompist. Enforcing them is till up to him and the moderators. I posted that statement because people were clogging the thread with redundant POD suggestions (mainly regarding Vinland). I should probably have elaborated.

If the French stayed in Quebec, the expensive policy of settling the territory with Catholics would probably add to the crushing debts of their monarchy. The Americans would still pay taxes to the British for the war, so they might start a revolution anyway. It is likely that the American Revolution would occur later (most ;likely pushing the French one to later as well). It is an interesting idea that I'd like to look more into.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:11 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:51 am 
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Unlikely, as the French Revolution happened due to Jacques Necker concealing massive debts from spending money on fighting the American War of Independence. If there was no such scandal, the revolution might have happened somewhat later.

I'm interested in making the Sionese language for the Sion scenario, but I'm a bit unsure about what language the settlers of New Sion would actual speak. Currently I'm leaning on late 16th century Extremaduran Ladino with a heavy Spanish influence, but I have no idea what that translates to in terms of grammar and lexicon. I also need information on Osage, Illinois and Qupaw, as Sionese borrows heavily from them in the early 17th century. The language also borrows a bit from the 17th century New England dialect of English and an assortment of various Algonquian and Iroquoian languages in Illinois Country and the east coast.
I also want to invent an Iroquoian language for a fictional people who lived around Philadelphia and Princeton (later migrate to the Ohio Country and become a nation of the Iroquois before the Tuscarora). Should I make these languages in a separate thread?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:07 pm 
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I don't think it is possible that the French could hold onto the Illinois Country even if they held Quebec. The French strategy was to exchange areas they conquered in European for American possessions, so the POD should probably be based in Europe instead. An exchange would also further alienate the British colonists from Britain.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:36 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:13 pm 
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Why would they revive Hebrew? The whole romanticism and return to Zion was done later. While it may be called Zion, New Sion is not Zionist. I think that country would either speak Ladino, Yiddish, Spanish, English or French. Whichever of the languages it speaks, it will definitely borrow extremely huge amounts of vocabulary from Native languages.

Paper money already existed as a concept in Europe, but paper notes were not considered money. They were instead more like IOUs. The Europeans already knew foreign lands which adopted paper notes as legal tender (East Asia), but a Europeanish country using this method would probably make it more attractive. New Sion more or less assimilates the various tribes, which adopt many European customs and clothing as well as a form of Catholicism. The natives do keep some of their customs, but tribes, clans and ethnicities disappear during the time of slavery, making the Amerinds of New Sion a single ethnic group. The languages they speak survive in the large amounts of loanwords in Sionese. New Sion has no interest in protecting the tribes near the European colonies. Only the major tribes involved in the Mississippi Valley fur trade are of concern.

As for a strong foreign policy, Sion has no interest in Europe, except minimising damage to Jews. With almost no navy to speak of, New Sion is also unable to act in Europe. It is the most powerful polity in the Americas north/east of New Spain, but it does not have the inclination to seize vast amounts of territory which it can neither settle or prevent others from settling in. Yes, I haven't gotten that far, but New Sion would not be a major global player in the 17th century anyway.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:20 pm 
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I suspect Yng was mocking your clichés through irony...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:05 pm 
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From what I've written about New Sion, here's what seems cliche:
It does some a bit like an althist wank, but given that the Sionians have advanced technology and stuff, they pretty much lord over the Natives until internal politics leads to the end of slavery. Slavery is what basically caused new Sion reason to expand. Amerind citizens, as well as immigrants, gave New Sion numerical advantages over the colonies.
The idea of separation of church and state prior to the 17th century had basis in many ancient philosophies, early Christian writings, treaties between European countries and the Pope and Lutheranism's Two Governments doctrine. The founders of New Sion belong to two different religious groups: Jews (vast majority) and Roman Catholics. Many of two are closely related to each other. The Jews don't want to be persecuted, but have no interest in proselytising. It seems natural for there to be a de facto separation of church and state, or at least an agreement to recognise the Roman Catholic Church and Castilian Rabbinical Judaism as legal religions. In 1636 of OTL, Roger Williams founded Providence Plantations with freedom of religion.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 am 
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OK, I've been thinking more deeply about the repercussions of killing off James I, and I've come to the conclusion that it could work. Simply put, James is now not constantly trying to keep the Church of England following the "middle way" like Elizabeth: the church will now certainly swing in favour of the more Puritan end of the spectrum (and thereby there would be no Spanish match for Charles). Also, Charles is now not trying to push the Church the other way towards , and will probably be moulded into a strong Protestant by whoever his Lord Protector is. All those things which made the monarchy so unpopular (James further worsening the monarchy's finances by overspending, the rise of Buckingham, the Forced Loan) will now not take place, and Charles is likely to be much more in tune with the national mood in general.

This results in two things: 1, there is nowhere near the same level of dissatisfaction with the monarchy among Puritans and Parliamentarians as there was in OTL and 2, there will not be the large influx of strict Puritans with a strong dislike of the British monarchy into the colonies. The latter would also drastically reduce the likelihood of early independence as in *here*. While this would not be absolutely perfect for the natives, anything which makes the US more like Canada is, in my opinion, frankly an improvement.

As for the Sion idea, while the separation of church and state is plausible, I think also that a measure of Judeo-Christian syncretism is not only possible, but almost certain.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:17 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:58 am 
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I'm going to heavily revise th Sionian scenario. After reading a bit about metallurgy, I decided that the Amerind nearby New Sion learn bronze working, but not iron working. Also, I may have had extremely unrealistic ideas of how large New Sion's pre-immigration population is.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:08 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:33 am 
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Jewish immigration is already a given. I just had in mind completely unreasonably large figures for the Amerind slaves/citizens in New Sion. Amerinds still make the majority before immigration, and Jews still make the majority after immigration.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:06 pm 
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I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Various ores are traded in exchange for shoddy iron tools and ornate decorations. The most important and vital part of the Sionian economy is the ore for metal trade. Sionians also control most of the North American trade by being the middleman between Europe and the Amerinds. The Amerinds are taught to look for ores and to mine by the original settlers.
Since you seem to know more about location of ore in North America than I do (specifically, something at all), it would be helpful if you could direct me to some map of the resources available.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:08 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:16 pm 
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I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


Last edited by alynnidalar on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:41 am 
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I found out that the Missouri Lead Belt used to have iron mines. The problem of iron, copper and lead is solved. Still need a source of tin (there's a little in the Lead Belt, but I'm not sure if it is enough). Not vital, but useful in trade with Europe: significant amounts of silver and gold are found in the Lead Belt.

The city of New Sion is also close to Arkansas, Illinois and Kentucky, which probably have their own resources. Whatever vital metals cannot be found in high enough quantities can probably be gained by teaching mining to various tribes and trading with them. If Amerinds refuse to give access to resources known to exist on their lands, there is also the option of war.

For a better idea of where the original city is, it is located about .

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:46 am 
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Since Frislander isn't editing the document, I'll add the Gunpowder Plot proposal for him.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:21 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:46 pm 
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I'll also add a bit of my own ideas if you have no objections.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:51 am 
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I have gone as far as I could think of (for now) with the Gunpowder Plot. I still think that there would be colonies, but, without the Civil War and religious persecution of Puritans, I think that the colonial population would remain very low.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:33 am 
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