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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:25 am 
Lebom
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The phonology of the Láadan which is built for a predominantly feminine use, bizarrely has a lack of certain consonants (Láadan has “b” and “d”, but not “p”, “t”, “k”, nor “g”; it has “th”, but not “s”)...
That puzzles me, without knowing it, I partly reproduce this lack when I distinguished a feminine and masculine pronunciation in tuskheejlusav ...
Yet I do not have the same mother tongue nor same gender as S H Elgin...
And I have not found any other linguistic or psychological explanation for this coincidence...
What to think about it...
Have you tried/do you know gender differentiation in phonology ...


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:31 am 
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I'm not sure she ever gave an explicit reason for choosing those consonants. The only clue I've seen is in a paperback Láadan grammar where the phonology is listed and then at the bottom it says:

Quote:
There is one more consonant in Láadan: it is ''lh'' and it has no English equivalent. [...] It is a sound with a hissing quality, and is not especially pleasant to hear. In Láadan it occurs only in words that are themselves references to something unpleasant, and can be added to words to give them a negative meaning.


So it could be that she chose the phonology not because she felt those sounds were inherently more feminine, but simply because she liked them. Still, I'd say that excluding voiceless stops, dorsal sounds, and the sibilant /s/ while describing the slurpy sound /ɬ/ as "not especially pleasant" seems like a preference for "soft" sounds that fall gently on the ears and make it very difficult to sound aggressive. Would someone yelling "Bíi dom le hal witheháa wa!" in their most threatening voice still chill your bones?

Quote:
Have you tried/do you know gender differentiation in phonology
Most of my conlangs belong to a family that has a consonant-based gender system, and even the languages that have lost the grammatical gender categories still retain the associations in given names and in some cases words for occupations. You wouldn't want to name your daughter "Tati" for example, since /t/ is in every language the sound most securely attached to masculinity. Feminine consonants outnumber masculine ones by a considerable margin, partly because in the old old protolanguage there were separate "married" and "maiden" feminine genders versus only one masculine, and partly because sound changes tended to increase the ratio even further over time.

-----------
edit:

Im not sure if there's really a universally feminine characteristic of any language that could be pointed to across all human cultures. I think, given the right cultural associations, even /t/ could sound feminine to a givenculture (it's the feminine marker in many Semitic languages, for example) and /m/ could sound masculine.

In my own conlangs, there is one language called Khulls which is very politically powerful. A small tribe calling itself the Moonshines broke away from them about 800 years before the maturation date of classical Khulls and developed a different phonology, vocabulary, and grammar. The Khulls people were somewhat feministic by world standards, but the Moonshines were extremely feministic by anyone's standards, living a lifestyle far beyond what even the feminists among the mainline Khulls speakers would be comfortable with. The traits of the Moonshine language thus came to be seen as feminine by the mainline Khulls speakers.

The main differences in phonology were that
*Moonshine lost the ejective stops /ṗ ṗʷ ṭ ḳ ḳʷ/, merging them with the voiceless stops.
*Moonshine retained the /j/ offglide in positions where Khulls swallowed it, meaning that Moonshine speakers could distinguish between /je/ vs /e/, etc, where Khulls only allowed /e/.
*Moonshine lost the distinction between velar and glottal fricatives, whereas Khulls retained the contrast between /x xʷ ɣ ɣʷ/ vs /h hʷ ʕ ʕʷ/.
*Moonshine lost the distinction between plain and labialized consonants when not before a vowel, meaning that labialization in Moonshine could be analyzed as simply being a cluster of a plain consonant and /w/.
*Moonshine retained nasals in some positions where mainline Khulls has stops. For example, Moonshine myàm "women's clothing" vs Khulls bèbʷ with the same meaning.
*Moonshine lost the pharyngealized vowels of Khulls, merging them unconditionally with short low-tone vowels of the same color.

I dont think there's anything inherently feminine or feministic about these particular phonological differences, but members of both cultures who were in conjtact with the opposite culture came to see the differences as very strongly characteristic of a masculine vs feminine divide, and Moonshine speakers who learned to speak Khulls but retained a Moonshine accent would be seen as very effeminate, and likewise for the opposite direction.

edit2:

I think English has developed very strong attachments to word-final vowels denoting masculine or feminine names ,despite it not even being a native feature of our language. We've imported the association primarily from Spanish. In Spanish, almost all names ending in /o/ are masculine, except for a few like Rosario and Consuelo that are epenthetic forms of names of the Virgin Mary.

If I remember right, even J R R Tolkien admitted that he had to change the names of some of his characters to get rid of word-final /o/ in some feminine names ... I think he replaced them with /a/ or a vowel. I dont see any particular reason why /o/ is a more masculine sound than /a/, or why it should only carry this meaning in word-final position, but it's a very strong cultural association nonetheless. THe association might be weakened somewhat if a name is obviously foreign in some other way ... e.g. a name like Kazeko looks Japanese (and is), and therefore people would be less averse to using it as a girl's name than they would a name like "Tolaco" which sounds Spanish.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:48 pm 
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No, you are not remembering it right. Tolkein translated the names of the Hobbits into Germanic names that are supposed to be familiar to English speakers (I guess with so many medieval texts he was out of touch on what were familiar names). In Westron, names ending in /o e/ were feminine and those ending in /a/ were masculine, butt his was changed in the translated names: Maura became Frodo, for instance. The characters did keep their original names, but he never mentioned them in the story.

There are no inherently feminine or masculine sounds, as far as I'm aware. Remember that gender is a social construct which can differ from the biological sex of a person, with some cultures having more than two human genders. Also, gender in linguistics (depending who you ask) can sometimes refer to any noun class system. In languages where people of different genders have very divergent registers, the phonological differences are based off of culture unique perceptions. If there are any common properties though, expect them to be based on sound symbolism reflecting the roles of the different genders in society.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:56 am 
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A pertinent question might be: are there any languages with grammatical gender in which at least one noun with a male referent is of female gender, and vice versa? In German, Weib and Töchter are neuter, which is as close as I can think of right now.

There's nothing inherently "feminine" about /-a/; it's just that /-a/ is a typically feminine termination in many Indo-European languages, and also in Arabic.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:05 am 
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alice wrote:
A pertinent question might be: are there any languages with grammatical gender in which at least one noun with a male referent is of female gender, and vice versa? In German, Weib and Töchter are neuter, which is as close as I can think of right now.


Tochter is feminine (Töchter is the plural form), but Mädchen is neuter.

Quote:
There's nothing inherently "feminine" about /-a/; it's just that /-a/ is a typically feminine termination in many Indo-European languages, and also in Arabic.


Indeed.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:55 am 
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a begining of answer...
why reducing consonants for female...
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs ... 1/document
why avoiding some consonants for female...
http://www.newswise.com/articles/voice-appeal


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:25 am 
Lebom
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alice wrote:
A pertinent question might be: are there any languages with grammatical gender in which at least one noun with a male referent is of female gender, and vice versa?

In Polish "man" is "mężczyzna" which gender is masculine ("ten mężczyzna"), but this word is of the most typical feminine declension (Gen. "mężczyzny", parallelly to "kobieta" : "kobiety" ("woman")) in all cases and both numbers. It is the only such a noun besides ad hoc insults which purpose is commenting or questioning other's sexuality.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:45 am 
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alice wrote:
A pertinent question might be: are there any languages with grammatical gender in which at least one noun with a male referent is of female gender, and vice versa?

Taken as you asked it: probably lots of them. Lots of nouns will not discriminate by sex, so that many, or even most, of their referents may be of the 'wrong' sex. On the other hand, if it becomes particularly egregious there'll probably be a tendency to swap to the 'right' pronouns even if the noun otherwise looks to be of the 'wrong' gender (as I believe there's a tendency to do in German?).

The example I was going to give looks more complicated than I thought. I remember "pirata", Latin for 'pirate', as being feminine. However, wiktionary claims that although it's a first declension noun that looks and declines like a feminine, it's really masculine. I don't know, however, how they define gender. Does it take the masculine pronoun (and does it do so even for a female pirate?)? What about adjectival declension? I don't know.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:44 pm 
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alice wrote:
A pertinent question might be: are there any languages with grammatical gender in which at least one noun with a male referent is of female gender, and vice versa? In German, Weib and Töchter are neuter, which is as close as I can think of right now.


German has der Rogner which means ‘female fish’ but is grammatically masculine and also die Drohne ‘drone’ for male bees, wasps, etc. For the latter term, there exists also a masculine Form (der Drohn), but the feminine Drohne is more common, at least among people who aren't entomologists.

However, while there is undeniably a mismatch between grammatical gender and biological sex in these two cases, one could plausibly argue that in the case of fish and insects all animals are perceived as not specifically gendered semantically, as sexual roles and dimorphism are very much different in fish and insects than in humans and mammals.

More unambiguous cases can be found in the domain of sexual behaviour and insults. There, German has die Tunte, die Tucke, die Schwuchtel, which can all roughly be translated as ‘faggot’ and unambiguously refer to a male homosexual or crossdresser but are grammatically feminine. There also is die Memme ‘sissy’, which isn't usually used to refer to women. Die Pussy has been borrowed from English with the same meaning, ie ‘sissy’ and referring to men. Semantically, all of them clearly have in common that they are an attack against their referent's masculinity. Also, at least Tunte (probably from Tante ‘aunt’), Memme (originally the female breast), and Pussy originally all meant some kind of female person or female sexual organs.

In the other direction there is der Vamp ‘vamp’ for a femme fatale. Again, the common element is that the behaviour of a Vamp is not in accordance with traditional, socially expected gender roles.

A different case are nouns which are normally indifferent with respect to semantic gender. Normally, the masculine is the generic gender, and words like der Student ‘student’ or der Lehrer ‘teacher’ are used both for specifically male students and teachers as well as generically. To refer to specifically female students or teachers, one would use the derived feminine forms die Studentin and die Lehrerin.

In some cases, however, there is no feminine form. Der Mensch ‘human being’, for example, is always masculine:

Er ist ein Mensch.
He is a human being.

and
Sie ist ein Mensch.
She is a human being.

but not
Sie ist *eine Menschin.

The only way to make it explicity that somebody is a female human being would be to use an adjective (ein weiblicher Mensch ‘a female human being’) or a compound form like Menschenfrau (Mensch + Frau ‘woman’).

This is more common in cases where the generic form is feminine, for example die Person ‘person’ or die Fachkraft ‘specialist’. The reason is likely that while the feminizing suffix -in is very productive in German, masculine nouns derived from feminine nouns are very rare in general, and even though German has a masculinizing suffix in -erich it is barely productive anymore.

More socially controversial cases are job titles for men in traditional female jobs, like (die) Krankenschwester ‘nurse’ (which contains Schwester ‘sister’ as part of the compound) or (die) Hebamme ‘midwife’ which are both grammatically and semantically feminine. Officially, the problem has been solved for Krankenschwester by creating the new compound Krankenpfleger as its masculine variant. Recently, the feminine form derived from it (Krankenpflegerin) has even replaced the original Krankenschwester as the legal job title for newly graduated female nurses, though female nurses who graduated before the change may still call themselves Krankenschwester and in colloquial usage, people of course don't care about it either.

For male midwives, German authorities took a similar route and created the word Entbindungspfleger for male midwives. The feminine variant Entbindungspflegerin ist not in use however; a female midwife is still a Hebamme. Legalese aside, a lot of people will have never heard of the term Entbindungspfleger, probably because it is of little practical relevance, as there are less than five certified male midwives in all of Germany. If you asked random Germans how a male midwife is called, most of them would probably answer something like (der) Hebammer or (der) Hebammerich (both in use colloquially, usually somewhat jokingly) or simply (die) männliche Hebamme ‘male midwife’. In fact, in Austria Hebamme is also the official job title for a male midwife.

In the other direction, this usually isn't a problem as female job titles are easilly derived with -in from male ones in most cases. One interesting counter example is (der) Ober, a somewhat formal term for ‘(male) waiter’, which is also used as a polite way to address your waiter as in Herr Ober. While the more general term for waiter, (der) Kellner, has a long-established female form, (die) Kellnerin ‘waitress’, it would not be proper to address your waiter or waitress as Herr Kellner or Frau Kellnerin. Unfortunately, the intuitive Frau Oberin to address a waitress is ruled out, because that is already how you address an abbess. It seems the form Frau Ober is slowly asserting itself, which would make this another case of a masculine noun with semantically female referents.

The main difference between examples like der Rogner or die Drohne is that the latter are always of the ‘wrong’ gender, while more common cases of mismatches, as in die Hebamme for a male midwife, have the ‘wrong’ gender only as a secondary possibility, resulting from an expansion of the word's original scope.

Salmoneus wrote:
The example I was going to give looks more complicated than I thought. I remember "pirata", Latin for 'pirate', as being feminine. However, wiktionary claims that although it's a first declension noun that looks and declines like a feminine, it's really masculine. I don't know, however, how they define gender. Does it take the masculine pronoun (and does it do so even for a female pirate?)? What about adjectival declension? I don't know.


Latin first declension nouns (a-stems) are overwhelmingly feminine, but a few of them have masculine, like your example pirata, or agricola ‘farmer’, poeta ‘poet’, or nauta ‘sailor’. That they are masculine is evident because masculine pronouns and adjectives agree with them:

A dead (male) pirate is a pirata mortuus, not a *pirata mortua. A great sailor is a nauta magnus, not a *nauta magna. And it is hic acgricola ‘this farmer’, not *haec agricola.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:59 pm 
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A little far from phonology...


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:10 pm 
Sumerul
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Salmoneus wrote:
The example I was going to give looks more complicated than I thought. I remember "pirata", Latin for 'pirate', as being feminine. However, wiktionary claims that although it's a first declension noun that looks and declines like a feminine, it's really masculine. I don't know, however, how they define gender. Does it take the masculine pronoun (and does it do so even for a female pirate?)? What about adjectival declension? I don't know.

This is an example of a wider trend in Latin, where first declension nouns referring to people can be masculine instead of feminine. Cf. agricola, nauta, and others.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:15 pm 
Sumerul
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alice wrote:
A pertinent question might be: are there any languages with grammatical gender in which at least one noun with a male referent is of female gender, and vice versa? In German, Weib and Töchter are neuter, which is as close as I can think of right now.

There's nothing inherently "feminine" about /-a/; it's just that /-a/ is a typically feminine termination in many Indo-European languages, and also in Arabic.

In all the major Romance languages, the word for "person" is feminine, which means you get things like Spanish Él es una buena persona 'he is a good person'. There are other examples: Él resultó ser la primera víctima atacada 'he ended up being the first victim attacked', Él es buena gente 'he is a good person' (from la gente), tu hijito nos parece una criatura muy tierna 'we think your little son is a very cute toddler' (la criatura 'toddler').


I realize that your question was very likely focused on human referents only, but if we expand this to animals, then it's very easy to find examples in any language with grammatical gender. In fact, I bet that in most of those languages most animal nouns have this phenomenon. Ese que ves ahí es la girafa macho del zoológico 'That guy you're seeing there is the male giraffe of the zoo.'

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:32 am 
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In Roman languages where any word has a gender, sex and grammatical gender are disconnected...
This is an English point of view to think sex and grammatical gender describe the same concept...


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:15 pm 
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ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:
In Polish "man" is "mężczyzna" which gender is masculine ("ten mężczyzna"), but this word is of the most typical feminine declension (Gen. "mężczyzny", parallelly to "kobieta" : "kobiety" ("woman")) in all cases and both numbers.

First of all, we have several semantically neutral feminine nouns like „osoba” (”person”), „istota” (“being”, “entity”), „strona” (“party”, “side [in a contract]”), which can be normally used to describe both males and females.

(Not to mention situations when a feminine noun is used metaphorically, e.g. „On jest naszą chlubą” = “He is our pride.” or „On jest seksbombą” = “He is a sexbomb”.)

Quote:
It is the only such a noun besides ad hoc insults which purpose is commenting or questioning other's sexuality.

A bulk of nouns ending with -ta („artysta”, „idiota”, „internauta”) and -ca („zwycięzca”, „nadawca”, „najemca”) and several others („sędzia”, „cieśla”, „radża”) behave the same way, being morphologically masculine in agreement, but having the feminine inflection patterns.

Quote:
This is an English point of view to think sex and grammatical gender describe the same concept...

I remember getting a figurative cancer from reading a Facebook discussion with Anglophones arguing that not having separate words for “he” and “she” is genderrrrr ideology.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Genderrrrr ideology often try reengineering language, believing in linguistic relativity to erase unappropriate comportments...
They think better humanity can be obtained by totalitarian way...
That's madness, only willing reason can...

Is Laadan design made for the wish of erasing/enforcing female comportment (making speech more direct, without sexual dominance...)


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:44 am 
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xxx wrote:
Genderrrrr ideology often try reengineering language, believing in linguistic relativity to erase unappropriate comportments...
They think better humanity can be obtained by totalitarian way...
That's madness, only willing reason can...

Is Laadan design made for the wish of erasing/enforcing female comportment (making speech more direct, without sexual dominance...)
wat

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:08 am 
Smeric
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Aili Meilani wrote:
xxx wrote:
Genderrrrr ideology often try reengineering language, believing in linguistic relativity to erase unappropriate comportments...
They think better humanity can be obtained by totalitarian way...
That's madness, only willing reason can...

Is Laadan design made for the wish of erasing/enforcing female comportment (making speech more direct, without sexual dominance...)
wat

I've given up on understanding xxx already.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:34 pm 
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that sort of thing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_ne ... in_English


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Wikipedia wrote:
Láadan is a feminist constructed language created by Suzette Haden Elgin in 1982 to test the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, specifically to determine if development of a language aimed at expressing the views of women would shape a culture; a subsidiary hypothesis was that Western natural languages may be better suited for expressing the views of men than women. The language was included in her science fiction Native Tongue series. Láadan contains a number of words that are used to make unambiguous statements that include how one feels about what one is saying. According to Elgin, this is designed to counter male-centered language's limitations on women, who are forced to respond "I know I said that, but I meant this".
I personally think that the difference between men and women's views are mainly created by gender norms, which are a cultural, not biological, institution. As language evolves to make expression easier, most cultural subgroups' speech is inherently better at expressing their beliefs, stories and poblems than that of another subgroup, even if they are speaking the same language (think of slang, jargon, political slogans, etc.)

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Aili Meilani wrote:
xxx wrote:
Genderrrrr ideology often try reengineering language, believing in linguistic relativity to erase unappropriate comportments...
They think better humanity can be obtained by totalitarian way...
That's madness, only willing reason can...

Is Laadan design made for the wish of erasing/enforcing female comportment (making speech more direct, without sexual dominance...)
wat


I think it's best to just treat 'xxx' as an experimental piece of automated software. Sometimes it comes up with strings that almost resemble English... other times, it seems pretty random.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:25 pm 
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With a decidedly L2 bent, judging by those damned ellipses.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:47 pm 
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I can't tell if you are joking or not. Is xxx a bot?

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:51 pm 
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mèþru wrote:
I can't tell if you are joking or not. Is xxx a bot?

Yep, it's a bot designed to make my posts less confusing by contrast.

Not.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:59 pm 
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I consider xxx to be a troll, especially now that they used a well-known snarl word.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:03 pm 
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…or he is not a troll and genuinely believes gender ideologues exist and want to remodel the language in a feminist way using totalitarian means.

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