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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:01 pm 
Lebom
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Proto-Caspian is the name of a PIE-derived language i have been working and reworking on for some time now. The name is simply to place it somewhere in our world before I haul it over to my conword where I shall collide it with the native languages there. Thus P.Casp is very much like any other early stage IE language and retains much of the irregular inflection of PIE.

But for now I just want to write out the language. Partly to showcase it and partly to actually have it written down in a cohesive manner.

Sound changes


Stage I: PIE > Pre-P.Casp



Interaction of PIE *e before and after laryngeals.
*e > ē ā ō / _{h1, h2, h3,} -change affected across diphthongs.
*e > e a o / {h1, h2, h3,}_

*i *u *o > ī ū ō / _H
*Ḥ > ā / C_C
*H > u / #_C

Metathesis of larygeal + vocalic liquid pairs. an irregular sound change, usually occurred in reduced 0-grade stems.
*HṚ *ḶH > ṚH ḶH

The interaction of vocalic consonants before laryngeals goes as follows:
Code:
   *h1   *h2   *h3
*ṛ   īr   ūr   ūr
*ḷ   īl   ūl   ūl
*ṃ   wā   wā   wō
*ṇ   yā   yā   yō

Assimilation of *m before coronals.
*m *ṃ > n ṇ / _ {*s *t *d *ḱ *ǵ *y *ṇ}

Vocalic consonants de-vocalize before vowels and other vocalic consonants:
*ṃ *ṇ > m n / _V

*ṃ *ṇ > wa ya

Apocope after stops but not aspirated stops nor labio-velars[super]1[/super]:
*s > ∅ / P_

Palatization of stops before front vowels. Not that labiovelars were unaffected by this. Note, *á was treated as a front vowel.
*k *g *gʰ *ḱ *ǵ *ǵʰ > č j ĵ ś ź ẑ / _{front vowels}

Merger of labio-velars with plain-velars
*kʷ *gʷ *gʷʰ > *k *g *gʰ

Loss of voice of voiced aspirated stops. Note satemization of *ǵʰ
*bʰ *dʰ *ǵʰ *gʰ > pʰ tʰ šʰ kʰ

Fricativization of voiceless stops before stops.
*p *t *k *ḱ > f ś x ç / _{stop}

Some form of the ruki sound law. Though *w and *y did not trigger this change.
s > š / _{*r *u *k *i} -

S-S-SATEMIZATION!!!
ḱ ǵ > š ž

Epenhetic w is added between long vowels
w / V̄_V̄

V̄V and VV̄ segments are simplified to V̄

Loss of laryngeals :'c
H > ∅

1. possibly because *kʷ *gʷ and *gʷʰ where treated as ku gu and gʰu early on

Stage II: Pre-P.Casp > P.Casp

Fricativization of aspirated stops. Note initial~medial forms.
pʰ tʰ šʰ kʰ > f ś~c š~č x

Formation of diphthongs Vi and Vu.
Vy Vw > Vi Vu

Debuccalization of initial s and rise of the glottal[super]?[/super] ḥ!
s > ḥ / #_

Assimilation of x.
x > ḥ

Fusion of s and y sequences.
sy > ś
ys > ś

Metathesis of ḥC giving rise to an array of Cḥ clusters.
ḥC > Cḥ

Lengthening of vowels around ḥ.
V > V̄ / _ḥ but not _ḥV̄
V > V̄ / Cḥ_ but not V̄Cḥ_

Fortuition of ḥ after n.
ḥ > g /n_

Fricativization of consonants preceding ḥ.
p t k b d g > f c ḥ w ź ġ / _ḥ

Loss of glottals post consonantly.
ḥ > ∅ /C_

Nasalization of voiced stops finally.
b d g > mb nd ng / _#

AAnd almost forgot this but reduction of mid vowels!
e o > a


Final Inventory for Early P.Casp


I've been using my own notation so far so i shall give the IPA approximation and the rough orthography:

Consonants:

/m n
p b t d k g
tʃ dʒ12 tɕ dʑ~ʑ12
f s ʃ ʒ ɕ1 ɕ2 χ~ɦ1 χ~ɦ2
j w r l/

<m n
p b t d k g
č j ĵ c ź ẑ
f s š ž ś ç h ġ
y w r l>

Vowels:

Short
tonic: /i æ u/ <í á ú>
atonic: /ɪ ə ʊ/ <i a u>

Long
tonic: /i: e: a: o: u:/ <î ê â ô û>
atonic: /i: e: a: o: u:/ <ī ē ā ō ū>

diphthongs:
/əɪ aɪ əʊ æʊ/ <ai ái au áu>

----

And that's about it! Bit more complicated with many exceptions but I may delve into that later. For now, have some word comparisons with related languages Sanskrit and Avestan.
Image

Numerals:

áigas /'æ̀ɪ̯.gəs/
dwṓ /'dwô:/
tráyas /'træ̀.jəs/
gatwár /gət'wǽr/
pánga /'pæ̀ŋ.gə/
wā́š /'wâ:ʃ/
hāftwá /χa:f.'twǽ/
açtṓu /əɕ2.'tô:w/
unáuya /'ʊ̯næ̀ʊ̯.jə/
dášyat /'dæ̀ɕ.jə/


I think I'll get into nouns in the next post as allophony has a lot to do with the major dialects that surge out of P.Casp in Late-P.Casp. Sorry if the layout is a bit messy, btw. It's been months since i actually formulated all these sound changes as I've been sound changing words of a dictionary for ages... Welp, hope the next post is more orderly!

Toodles~

Edit: Keep forgetting some REALLY important sound changes.

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Last edited by Lyra on Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:54 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:16 pm 
Avisaru
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So far so traditional, but at the same time I think 'wow, that's a lot of palatalisation and fricativisation!'.

I'm slightly puzzled by x's variance with voiced sounds but γ not doing. Why is it like that?

What plans do you have for the daughterlangs?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:55 pm 
Lebom
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Frislander wrote:
So far so traditional, but at the same time I think 'wow, that's a lot of palatalisation and fricativisation!'.


Yeah, the current stage isn't very crazy at all. Partly why it's just a quick write up and not a proper introduction.

Frislander wrote:
I'm slightly puzzled by x's variance with voiced sounds but γ not doing. Why is it like that?


Yeah, now that i look at it ɣ wasn't really the best way to put it. Both ç and ġ which should probably be annotated as ɕ2 and ɦ2 are rare sounds that are treated differently in different daughter langs (or so i have planned). They don't survive the Late-P.Casp sound changes and are assimilated differently. Which can cause some variance later on. For example:

Dialect A assimilates ç with ś (most common sound change) but Dialect B approximates it to y. Added with a metathesis rule I plan for coronals before stops, it will give those little nuance variations in the early dialects sorta categorize the daughter langs later on. Loose ends is what I call them.

With that said, the Late-P.Casp sound changes for *açtôw "eight" could go as follows:

A: *əɕ2tô:w > əjtô:w > əɪtô:w > ɨtô:
Early-P.Casp > defining ɕ2 > ay becomes regular diphtong ai and loss of glides after long vowels > diphthong reduction
B: *əɕ2tô:w > əɕtô:w > ətɕô:w > ətɕô:
Early-P.Casp > defining ɕ2 > metathesis to tɕ > loss of glides after long vowels

So apart from the initial stage, all the other sound changes to happen in both Late-P.Casp dialects.

So yes, thank's for bringing that up -I'll fix it now. but do keep in mind the rough IPA values i have given are for the sake of it rather than actual exact values.

Frislander wrote:
What plans do you have for the daughterlangs?


So apart from the example given, I am currently working on the local conlangs of my conworld, which are a priori, so as to give some sort of strata for the sound changes AFTER Late-P.Casp. Nothing too sure as of now as I don't want to get ahead of myself.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:06 pm 
Avisaru
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Lyra wrote:
Frislander wrote:
What plans do you have for the daughterlangs?


So apart from the example given, I am currently working on the local conlangs of my conworld, which are a priori, so as to give some sort of strata for the sound changes AFTER Late-P.Casp. Nothing too sure as of now as I don't want to get ahead of myself.


That's OK. I'm generally not a proper diachronic conlanger (with the exception of my Algonquian project, my protoforms are generally back-derived), so I'm generally not taking much cue from that sort of thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:54 am 
Sanci
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Numerals:

áigas /'æ̀ɪ̯.gəs/
dwṓ /'dwô:/
tráyas /'træ̀.jəs/
gatwár /gət'wǽr/
pánga /'pæ̀ŋ.gə/
wā́š /'wâ:ʃ/
hāftwá /χa:f.'twǽ/
açtṓu /əɕ2.'tô:w/
unáuya /'ʊ̯næ̀ʊ̯.jə/
Name for numeral ten?

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My collection numbers from languages and dialects changes incenssantly.
Today 21.1.2014 my collection includes: I have data for numbers from 21518 ways (both languages. conlangs and natlangs, their dialects, subdialects,... additional versions.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:59 am 
Smeric
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Nice! I have noticed some interesting things, such as the different developments of "long syllabic resonants" according to the quality of the laryngeal; I can't recall an IE language that does this. The resulting words you give have a very distinct sound flavour.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:14 am 
Smeric
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WeepingElf wrote:
the different developments of "long syllabic resonants" according to the quality of the laryngeal; I can't recall an IE language that does this.

Greek.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:04 pm 
Smeric
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KathTheDragon wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
the different developments of "long syllabic resonants" according to the quality of the laryngeal; I can't recall an IE language that does this.

Greek.


Of course, with the famous triple reflex!

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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:22 pm 
Smeric
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Using the sound changes listed, here is what I have for ten:
Ten is reconstructed as déḱṃ(t). Its forms include:
collective form: *déḱṃt, ordinal: *déḱṃtos, *deḱṃHós
If the (t) is not included, you get:
déšwa
If it is included, got two results as I was unsure if <y> counts as a front vowel:
(Yes): déśyat
(No): déšyat

I am a bit confused about which of <ś š ž ś ç h ġ> corresponds to <ʃ ʒ ɕ1 ɕ2 χ~ɦ1 χ~ɦ2>, as it seems like the letters do not correspond to the phonemes and <ś> is used twice. I understand something like this: <š>=/ʃ/ <ž>=/ʒ/ <ś>=/ɕ1/, <h>=/χ~ɦ1/, <ç>=/ɕ2/ and <ġ>=/χ~ɦ2/. Also, did you decide between long tonic vowels using inverted breves or macrons with acute accents, as your picture uses the second while the text uses the first.
There should be some difference in realisation between each member of 1,2 pairs or mutual exclusivity between them to prevent them from acting like a single phoneme.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:03 pm 
Lebom
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mèþru wrote:
Using the sound changes listed, here is what I have for ten:
Ten is reconstructed as déḱṃ(t). Its forms include:
collective form: *déḱṃt, ordinal: *déḱṃtos, *deḱṃHós
If the (t) is not included, you get:
déšwa
If it is included, got two results as I was unsure if <y> counts as a front vowel:
(Yes): déśyat
(No): déšyat


hah! yes, it's <dáśyat> because I forgot to include the merging of e and o to a. I'm glad you were able to follow the sound changes!

mèþru wrote:
I am a bit confused about which of <ś š ž ś ç h ġ> corresponds to <ʃ ʒ ɕ1 ɕ2 χ~ɦ1 χ~ɦ2>, as it seems like the letters do not correspond to the phonemes and <ś> is used twice. I understand something like this: <š>=/ʃ/ <ž>=/ʒ/ <ś>=/ɕ1/, <h>=/χ~ɦ1/, <ç>=/ɕ2/ and <ġ>=/χ~ɦ2/. Also, did you decide between long tonic vowels using inverted breves or macrons with acute accents, as your picture uses the second while the text uses the first.
There should be some difference in realisation between each member of 1,2 pairs or mutual exclusivity between them to prevent them from acting like a single phoneme.


I believe it's just an error on my part on the notation.

ɕ2 is more like ɕ~ç depending on the dialect. And the same goes to the other type 2 sounds. I'm just unsure of what they are exactly as I need to think up what I want them to become later on. In some late dialects they are merged with the type 1 whilst in other's they are not or merged with other sounds. What would be the best way to annotate that?

On the inverted braves and macrons. basically one is my own notation the other is just "prettier" to me. I think I'll soon just stop being silly and use the inverted macrons because they are, by far, much handier to type out on most keyboards.

Thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:50 am 
Sanci
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I noticed from your last post that the Proto-Caspian also they have one of the dialect. Could you please tell me how is the name of the dialect?

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Today 21.1.2014 my collection includes: I have data for numbers from 21518 ways (both languages. conlangs and natlangs, their dialects, subdialects,... additional versions.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:49 pm 
Lebom
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Janko Gorenc wrote:
I noticed from your last post that the Proto-Caspian also they have one of the dialect. Could you please tell me how is the name of the dialect?


Still working on those dialects. When i have them finalized i shall have the numbers.

--

Been working on some texts to figure out the language. May talk about the cases and conjugation? Though i might just go straight to evolving the language and making it more interesting. I could explain you most of it's grammar but it's all very Early-IE.

"Ô Mêyas! Ô Hûlā!
Tás íšawas, tás yāsíš
mám gīwadānśám mai cārštá!"

Ányamatrî tadâ dāryâi gláčand.
Ya dašráwōm ásas tâ áźyāt:
Udânām, Frêrwa, Ápōnwa,
Náftanam, Yûrwaka.
Ítūr î Pyagawāsriyám áyēyatai.


"Oh Moon! Oh Sun!
Your arrows, your sword
my life-given you have taken from me!"

Then the All-Mother cried out in lament for the perishing one.
And from her tears these were begat:
Udana, Frera, Apona,
Notna and Yur.
Thus the five-sisterhood was made.


Árdiš Bābílaśa

Īdô anyaśáčōm wādyačwâm wāyáuśatwa wôkwa ka dḷčánd.
Tátina manáwas áustram dâuyat, an Šinârai lêncwa tái wīdánt ya ûdūr hā tśišánt.
Hā hīkántai, "Gyasšōtá, śkrêyatyas yêsūta ya ái yasmái fôgzīntar." śkrêyatē pán lêwas, nu gatú upá kakláus fáugnayat.
Tādâ hīkánt, "Gyasšōtá, wôstuš nôs dámaitar, kšun ūrdáyai uyás dyawám gīganśêt, ōfítūr nôs unányacēsšōsīntar nu áti anyašmás ántum mēuwápāsšōsīntar."
Yatár Á PÁTIŠ ftêyat hācáwai wôstuš árdiš ka manáwōm danyaśâs ušánt.
Á PÁTIŠ śêt, "Yáti wānd wātautâi wādyačwās wučyâi, î tând wáhainti, tādâ nauyás yêtuš hâitsīnti, hāi yajalyêt.
Gyasšōtá, uwár gāmá nu hâm dyačwâm wêyama ōfítūr hā mēdâršyatar."
Nē Á PÁTIŠ ûdūri áti anyaśáčōm î uwapánd, ya wôstum danyám urányat.
Tâ yâwat Bābílas jaltár -- upánē ûdūr Á PÁTIŠ anyašmás dyačwâ wīánd. Ûdūri Á PÁTIŠ áti anyašmás ántum î uwapánd.


Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.
The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
That is why it was called Babel -- because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.


Will try and and work on the "The king and the god" as well as the "sheep and the horses" soon.

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