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 Post subject: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:23 pm 
Avisaru
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In 514 BC, Harmodius and Aristogeiton, commonly called the "Tyrannicides", attempted to assassinate the tyrants Hippias and Hipparchus. They only succeeded on the latter count, and Hippias stayed in power for another four years, until his increasingly cruel rule (and unnerving association with Persia) drove the Alcmaeonidae to take action to try to remove him. They bribed the Delphic Oracle to tell the Spartans to aid them in overthrowing Hippias' regime, and it worked. The Spartans marched to Athens, overthrew Hippias (allowing the Alcmaeonidae to take power and exile Hippias and the other remaining Pisistratids. Hippias later went on to join Xerxes and in fact guide him through his conquest of Greece.) An interesting consequence, however, was that, as the Spartans marched, they passed by Plataea, and the Plataeans asked them for aid in defending themselves against the aggressions of Thebes, which had been trying for years to conquer its neighboring cities and unify Boeotia. The Spartan king Cleomenes said no—such an alliance would be impossible to actualize due to the distance between Sparta and Plataea—but recommended that they seek help from Athens instead. They did this, and Athens accepted, and as a consequence Thebes and Athens became enemies. In the second Persian invasion of Greece, Athens rallied the various states of Greece to band together and repel the Persians—and Potidaea joined them, but Thebes refused, and instead fought on the Persian side. Following the war Thebes was punished for this action, by being removed from leadership of the Boeotian League. Athens, meanwhile, became the center of Greek literature, philosophy, and the arts. Following the conquest of Greece by Alexander the Great, its dialect (Attic) became the basis for Koinê Greek, which would later evolve into what we know today as Modern Greek.

In 514 BC, Harmodius and Aristogeiton, commonlie called the "Turannicides", attempted to assassinate the turants Hippias and Hipparchus. Theȝ succeeded on both counts. Immediatelie the Alcmaeonidae took advantage of this opportunitie to take back control of Athans. Theȝ exiled the remaining Pisistratids (Pisistratus son of Hippias in fact joined Xerxes and guided him through his later conquest of Greece.) Unrelatedlie, in 507 the citie of Plataea allied itself with Theibes to form the basis of what would later be called the Boeotian League, which was later strengthened bie the addition of Theispis as a defensive measure against a Thettalian invasion. When the Persians invaded in 480, theȝ were met at Thermopulae with a contingent of Boeotian and Peloponnesian troops, who, while not victorious, were able to hold off the main flank of the Persian armie for long enough for the Corneia to end and the main bodie of the Spartan armie to set out in assistance. Soon afterwards the Allied navie, led bie the Athanians, met and destroȝed or routed a large portion of the Persian fleet at the Battle of Chalcis. Following this decisive victorie the Persian armie was met and defeated bie a combined Boeotian and Spartan force at the Battle of Chaeronea. The following period marked Thebes as the center of Greek literature, philosophie, and the arts. Following the conquest of Greece bie Alexander the Great, its dialect (Boeotian) became the basis for Koenâ Greek, which would later evolve into what we know todaȝ as Modern Greek.

The native name, however, is Ϝεͱο̨τισς, or Weȝötiss.

(Information on the language will follow.)

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:28 pm 
Smeric
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Interesting! If Plataea allied with (or more probably, was conquered or threatened by) Thebes, the Boeotian League would not need Aegina to fight with the Athenians. This war was the basis of the Athenian fleet, but s smaller fleet might have been built anyway as Athenian citizens learn about Persian designs on Greece. Thebes, being far in land, could not fight for control of the Greek islands like Athens could. Unless if the Delian league, based on Athenian naval power, is formed and the Peloponnesian war fought, the lands of Greece would be locked in constant proxy war until the Macedonian invasion. That invasion, unlike the real life equivalent, could possibly unite the Greek city-states and kingdoms against Macedonia. Another alternative is that Thebes tries to make an empire of satellite states on land similarly to Athens' Delian League. A massive mainland Greek war between Thebes and Athens would ravage the land and the Macedonians could easily conquer the remains. Peloponnesia would be untouched. Several leagues would form to protect the area from Macedonia, but the Macedonians would turn the Leagues against each other to divide and conquer the rest of Greece.
To adopt a scenario where Athenian does not became the prestige dialect of Greece, I would suggest the last scenario. Athens could be utterly destroyed by the Theban army. Sparta, however, is most going to be the most powerful and least damaged area in the aftermath of the Macedonian conquests. I would make a dialect of Spartan with heavy Theban and minor Athenian influences the basis of Koinê Greek.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:59 pm 
Smeric
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Gytheion, a major Spartan port seems like a good candidate for the source of the dialect I mentioned earlier. As the Hellenic Empire centers on the Mediterranean, the dialect must be coastal. One issue with Theban is that that city was not coastal (it is today, but the city boundaries are much bigger).

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:04 pm 
Avisaru
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The scenario I presented is not without its problems, no. It's based on a simplified and handwaved version of history. In reality, the Greeks wouldn't have been able to hold Thermopylae for more than another day even with Boeotian aid, and it's doubtful that an allied force of less than basically all of Greece would have been able to stop the Persians on land, to say nothing of sea. If I really wanted to make Thebes as powerful as it should realistically be, I would have started way back with the Lelantine War.

But this way is more fun. All I need to do is help my friends the Turannicides kill one man.

(Besides, my goal isn't to get a dialect of something other than Attic—it's to get Boeotian specifically. Boeotian was a very interesting dialect with a very interesting vowel system, and it is what I used to create this conlang.)

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:12 pm 
Avisaru
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Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:28 pm 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:48 am 
Smeric
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So the idea is that, besides the different standard for Greek and Alphabet coventions, there would be no changes and butterflies? For example, we would just have a Theban Socrates and Platon, academy , etc.; Alexander, Hellenism, the Roman Empire, Christianity playing out exactly the same, just spelled in a different way?


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:06 am 
Avisaru
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Many important figures were not born, but rather moved, to Athens. Aristotle was born in , in Chalcidice. Plato and Socrates are harder, especially since Plato was born to a prestigious family. Of course, I don't know nearly enough about philosophy to even begin to speculate on what would happen if the situation were to change, so I am willing to invent a Theban Plato—call him Varaeo—and say that Socrates moved to Thebes.

Any other changes I similarly cannot predict, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts, if you have any.

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:21 am 
Smeric
Smeric

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Posts: 2316
Location: Bonn, Germany
Well, the point is, of course, that changes build on each other, so when we arrive at the modern world, it might not be recognisable to us. But that seems not to be what you're aiming for. So we'd have to look at what changes would be inevitable and whether it's possible to keep the main develpments. Unfortunately, I don't have the ime for that right now...


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:12 pm 
Smeric
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From what I understand, Socrates was involved to some extent in Athenian politics and felt some sense of loyalty to the people of Athens. I doubt that he would move. However, that does not prevent a Theban from hearing of his ideas and applying them in Thebes.
About butterflies, the only way to avoid them is to take a chapter from Ill Bethisad - if something is extremely unlikely but still justifiable and suits your goals, than to hell with reason and historical accuracy. Romance speaking Welsh colonists flying their airship squadrons in a war against the Florida-Caribbean empire sounds too awesome for things like reality. It is, after all, not a history book. It is a story, and you decide how that works. If historical accuracy is important, then the whole premise is stupid. If it isn't, then do whatever you want. If maintaining the pretense of being historically accurate while flatly contradicting it is what you want (which is basically what all alternate historians, even the "hard" ones do), then what you need is what Ill Bethisad calls "points of convergence." These are PODs within the main POD that make the world more like ours - a divergence from diverging.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:21 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 434
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Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:04 pm 
Lebom
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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:25 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 434
Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


Last edited by ObsequiousNewt on Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:47 pm 
Lebom
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 Post subject: Re: Modern Greek
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:44 pm 
Avisaru
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Weyötiss has several notable grammatical features to be noted. At first glance, it appears to be SOV:


My father's native language is English. I can understand and speak it.

However, the object may be freely replaced with an adverb or adverbial phrase of higher valence:


In the beginning, God ordered an Earth and large fries.

Note that the object does not precede the verb, but rather follows it, so the word order may more accurately be described as subject-focus-verb-remainder.

Having lost the passive, Weyötiss instead relies on topic-fronting to decrease valency:


I'm sorry, the bananas haven't been shipped in yet.

Note that ινσηολα is not treated like a noun, but rather is an inseparable element of the verb phrase ινσηολα εθον.

Omission of subject pronouns may be seen as antiquated, or (in the dialects of central Attica and Euboea) slang speech. Elision of πφε in the sentence above is not only common in said dialects, but is seen in Boeotian and Peloponnesian colloquial speech as well.

Impersonals, by contrast, never take a subject:


It's snowing.

All questions are marked with the interrogative particle αρ, which stands first in the sentence:


Who can say where the road goes?


Were you born in this city?

Note however that questions using adverbs place the adverbs at the beginning of the sentence, before the subject:


Why isn't the driver stopping the car?

The imperative acts like a normal sentence, but with the subject effectively dropped:
,
Please get your cow out of my way.

(Note that the article is effectively identical to the second person possessive, so the clitic -το, which marks the second person, is often added. In central Greece (and especially Attic) this usage has spread to the other personal clitics -μο and -ϝηο.)

However, in the Arcadian and Boeotian dialects, the imperative comes first, such that the above sentences would be translated as Αθο ηισσηε, πο̨ϝ τα αυτο απεκ μο ηοσς.

It is also possible to use subjects with the imperative, although this usage is somewhat antiquated:


Thy kingdom come.

There are two ways to attach adjectives to nouns in Weyötiss. The former is simply placing the adjective between the noun and article, as above: ο σηοφο νερ the wise man. The second is placing the adjective after the noun, and repeating the article, and has the effect of shifting focus slightly onto the noun: ο νερ ο σηοφο the man who is wise. One must be careful not to omit the second article in this construction, as doing so causes the sentence to have an entirely different meaning (see "Predicate clauses" below.)

Genitives work in a similar manner: α το πα̨ς ματερ the child's mother, α ματερ α το πα̨ς the mother of the child. The latter construction is more common in colloquial Weyötiss, and the second (genitive-marking) article is often dropped, e.g. α ματερ α πα̨ς.

In both cases, an important thing to note is that the second construction is effectively treated as two noun phrases for the purpose of word order, so while Ιογ τον σηοφον νερ ϝεϝορακ. is a correct translation of "I saw the wise man", **Ιογ τον νερ τον σηοφον ϝεϝορακ. is incorrect and must be replaced with Ιογ τον νερ ϝεϝορακ τον σηοφον. Similarly, Ιογ ταν ματερ ϝεϝορακ ταν το πα̨ς.

PREDICATE CLAUSES

One of the most unique and pervasive features of Weyötiss is the <predicate clause>, or predicate clause. A predicate clause consists of an adjective placed after a noun, without an interposing article, and implies intent, purpose, or effect, and is thus often translated with the English infinitive of purpose. While it can be used with a simple adjective, it is most often used with an exocentric compound, a highly productive class of words retained from Ancient Greek. Take the following sentence:


I am laughing at your not having a wife, as a result you are the one cooking your own food.

The most direct translation of this sentence would be I am laughing at your not-wife-having (α-ϝανα̨κ-ο̨χ) , [such that] you [are] food-cooking. This is a slightly less than prototypical construction—the predicate clause is not an effect of the laughing, but rather of an embedded verbal noun.

The adjective in a predicate clause can also refer to a noun used elsewhere in the sentence:


Man has nothing good with which to recompense Heaven. (lit. "Men have nothing on good [to be] Heaven-recompensing.")

In the above sentence the predicate clause agrees with αυ̨τ "nothing".

This section should probably be expanded.

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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