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 Post subject: Cellar door
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:58 am 
Avisaru
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"Most English-speaking people ... will admit that cellar door is "beautiful", especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful than, say, sky, and far more beautiful than beautiful. Well then, in Welsh for me cellar doors are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant." - J. R. R. Tolkien, English and Welsh, 1955.

This phenomenon won't be new to almost everyone here. The term "cellar door", in its British English pronunciation, something like /sɛlə dɔ̝ː/ is largely considered to be the most beautiful word or combination. Some uses (mostly re-spelled) are found .

So, as conlangers, has anyone here deliberately used or deliberately avoided "cellar door" in their conlangs? Do you agree with it being at all "beautiful"?

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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:56 am 
Avisaru
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Well, "cellar door" doesn't do much for me; but I have my own "cellar doors" as well. I have to fight that tendancy sometimes, because it can lead to an SAE-ish feel to the languages. Not that I think there's anything wrong with it, but my conlangs are supposed to be spoken on another planet. Deliberatly avoiding "cellar doors" leads for me to a more alien sound, which is more fitting.


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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:02 am 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:58 am 
Smeric
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Well, as much as I idolize Tolkien, I actually strongly disagree with him in that I find "throaty sounds" highly agreeable, and indeed my three favorite groups of sounds do not occur phonemically in English: uvular fricatives, ejectives, and implosives. Oddly enough, I have no conlangs that include all three sounds: I have a couple languages with both uvular fricatives and ejectives, I have one language with both ejectives and implosives, but I have no languages with all three or with both uvular fricatives and implosives. Of course, I'm also not a huge fan of Welsh, preferring Irish and Gaulish when it comes to Celtic languages. You'll rarely find me disagreeing with the dear professor, and despite what I just said I find both Sindarin and especially Quenya very aesthetically pleasing, but this is one of those rare exceptions. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:10 pm 
Lebom
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Well I love hearing Arabic's /q/, /ʕ/, /ɣ/, and /ħ/ in songs and in every day words, so I'm against Tolkien on this one! The word /qal.ʕa/ 'citadel, castle' and /ʕajn/ 'eye' are exceptionally beautiful imo


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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:32 am 
Lebom
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I do like the words "cellar door", but I'm not sure I'd have /selador/ or whatever in any of my conlangs, other than by accident. A general aesthetic appreciation of the words is one thing, but there's also the matter of conforming the word to the general "feel" of the language - and I'm not sure /selador/ would really fit into most of mine that well. In native Viksen words, for example, /l/ is lost between vowels and /s/ palatalises before /e/, so you'd only get selador if it were a relatively recent loan.

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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:38 am 
Smeric
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I feel the euphonic appeal of the word. In Tautisca, a word pronounced [sɛlə dɔ̝ː] would be impossible - the language has no shwa.


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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:17 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:36 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:59 am 
Lebom
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I've got a WIP conlang based on "pashmina" پشمینه‎‎ being my "cellar door".

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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:38 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:09 pm 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:34 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:01 am 
Avisaru
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No, but it would affect the pronunciation of cellar door that he found so attractive.

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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:38 am 
Lebom
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Exactly. "Cellar door" is pretty meh in rhotic dialects, or downright gross depending on the pronunciation of /3`/.


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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:29 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:46 pm 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:48 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:00 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:38 pm 
Smeric
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I love hearing 's videos on conworlds and conlangs. He speaks some nonstandard dialect of Irish English that is just fun to hear.

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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:58 am 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:53 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:29 pm 
Smeric
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"rain" still has a rhotic sound in non-rhotic dialects.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:58 am 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Cellar door
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:53 am 
Avisaru
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