Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

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Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

This is a scratchpad for a language I want to add to the collaborative project at this thread. I am unsure what the language would be like. Currently I'm leaning towards an Algonquian language with an Iroquoian-derived pidgin as a male register spoken by a fictional genetically Algonquian Iroquoian ethnicity à la Island Carib, but I'm not sure how much I can borrow as the Iroquoians were much less paternalistic than the Island Caribs. I want to explore plausible origins for this people, as well as plausible origins for some of their peculiar traits. For example, I want them to not share the same sound changes as the Oneida-Mohawk branch, yet have a strong lexical similarity with Oneida compared to other Iroquoian languages. The peoples lived mainly around Philadelphia and Princeton, but their territory stretches far throughout the Delaware River Valley (actual basin, not the extended Philadelphia metropolitan area) in their years of greatest extent. They were often at war with the neighbouring Susquehannock and Lenape peoples, who also frequently fought with each other. This conculture also often allied with the Iroquois League without joining it. The language that they would speak would probably have influences on neighbouring languages. The problem is that I know very little about Iroquoian and Algonquian languages and the time frame of their sound changes. I found a version of Charles Julian's 2010 paper, "A History of the Iroquoian Languages", but it is a bit long, I do not know enough linguistics to understand all of it, I'm too lazy to read it all and I have other things to work on (the two current proposals for the alternate history, my own conworld (link in my signature) and life and work outside of conworlding). My posting on this thread is probably going to be very infrequent, so I suggest that people move on with discussion and proposals for the language without me. A collaborative conlang, if you will. Because I want to focus more on kårroť, I am also going to post less frequently (as in, logged in for most of the day almost every day vs taking 1-day to several week long breaks) in the ZBB in general. On the upside, I plan to revive my blog somewhere in September/October. You can still send a gmail email to methru.glenpleksalutu@gmail.com to request editing privileges for the alternate history's Google Doc. The people who participate in the thread will be credited as co-creators of the language in the aforementioned doc.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

My current idea is that several Proto-North-Iroquoian speaking tribes from the Oneida-Mohawk branch (which was mutually intelligible with Proto-North-Iroquoian) go on a massive raid on the southern lands. Many of the raiders decide to settle near the Delaware (river). They often kidnap Delaware (peoples) women and adopt them as wives. The Iroquois did this all the time, but they did not do it in such massive numbers. Most Iroquois wives were born as Iroquois. Those that were not eventually learned an Iroquois language, became adopted by a clan and took on the customs of that clan. Would this happen with a massive influx of foreign wives, mostly from the same ethnicity and therefore able to talk to each other in their native language and pass it to their children, making the Delaware language the language of these Iroquoians along with a male Iroquoian-based pidgin? Or would the wives be thoroughly Iroquoiacised and pass the Iroquoian language to their children?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by Frislander »

How's it coming along, meth? Can you find decent resources in Proto-Iroquoian, because it'd be nice to see them if you can.
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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

I wrote:I found a version of Charles Julian's 2010 paper, "A History of the Iroquoian Languages"
link
I'm currently focusing on my own conworld.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by Frislander »

mèþru wrote:
I wrote:I found a version of Charles Julian's 2010 paper, "A History of the Iroquoian Languages"
link
I'm currently focusing on my own conworld.


Wonderful!
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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

I've decreased my focus on my own conworld and went back to the gunpowder plot scenario. I'm currently reading the paper I've linked to here.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

Do the Lenape have an Iroquoian kinship system or some other kind? All I know is that it is matrilineal and bifurcate merging.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by Zaarin »

mèþru wrote:Do the Lenape have an Iroquoian kinship system or some other kind? All I know is that it is matrilineal and bifurcate merging.

I did some research but didn't find a definitive answer whether it was Iroquoian or Crow. My instinct would guess Iroquoian, but I have nothing to confirm that.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

I found a PDF saying that they were different from the specific system of the Iroquois (still enough room there to be the generic term "Iroquoian"), but it didn't elaborate on how.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

I want to revive this but I have nothing to say right now. I completely forgot about this.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

1st draft:
PMO-3 is the last shared sound change before the split from Proto-Mohawk-Oneida.

Pidgin consonant system:
/t k
n
s ʃ h
t͡ʃ
ɹ j w
l/
/t͡s/ ⟶ /s/ before
/kʷ t͡s/ ⟶ /kw ts/
/Ɂ/ ⟶ /h/ at the end of words, except when doing so creates homophony
/Ɂ/ ⟶ ∅
[ʃ t͡ʃ] are phonemicised
/l/ only exists in borrowings.

Vowel system (both pidgin and Delaware dialectal):
/i iː u
e eː o oː
ə əː
ɐ
äː/

epenthetic [ɪ] ⟶ /i/ in the same position in was phonemicised in Oneida.

Vocabulary in their dialect of Delaware is Munsee and northern Unami in origin, but there is no Munsee influence in sound changes. There are fewer loanwords from settlers than in the Delaware languages, with a preference for coining new words or calquing.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

Need resources on Munsee, Unami, North Unami and Common Delaware.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by Vijay »

Well, I have one of the Dear America diaries, which has a bit of Unami in it. :P

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Re: Iroquoian/Algonquian conlang scratchpad

Post by mèþru »

I think I'll go with an Iroquois kinship system. I still need English language resources regarding Lenape languages and their sound evolution.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

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