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zompist bboard • View topic - tube bo, kije bo & ALL GRAMMAR OF DAMA DIWAN

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:56 am 
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tube bo naja kije bo =
ACTIVE VOICE VERSUS PASSIVE VOICE
Before we see some examples, note that all the suffixes are:
1) -o, marker of nouns
2) -on =object before the verb.
3) –e =active verb, not followed by its object; so, if something is after –e, this verb (with its modifiers, if any) is DEPENDENT to the following (much like an active participle).
4) –en =active verb, to be followed by its object; in this case, the object itself is not marked; the object can be a noun, but also anything else, e.g. a whole phrase, or an indeclinable word. In rare cases, -en is not followed by something stated, but it is understood that there is an object to it.
5) –a =an adverb. Conjunctions and POSTpositions are categorized as adverbs, too.
6) –an =it forms a kind of genitive case, similar to English "of". (But the genitive in Dama, being a dependent word, goes before the modified word). As it means "in relation to", it has been also used for making PREpostitions.

7) In other words, the final –n (which is best pronounced as a velar nasal) serves to show how to construct the syntax tree. Apart from the function of the –n, Dama is a positional language: the modifier goes before the modified. That is not only because the biggest part of the world follows (or at least understands) that order, or because some people like it; it is, above all, because this word order is the most practical (as it minimizes ambiguity), the most “economical” (as it requires the minimum grammatical marking), and it is in accordance to the process of cognition. The native description of this order is:
nuna kawo, jama simo =
“first the perception, then the judgment”.
8) Because of this rule, there is usually a zero copula: “buso juko” =dog silly =(that) dog is silly; “juko buso” =a silly dog.

Some rudimentary examples: (bus-=DOG, kuw-=FEAR, muw-=CHILD).
buson kuwe muwo. THE CHILD THAT FRIGHTENS THE DOG. (rules 2 3 1)
buso kuwe muwo. THE CHILD WHO IS AFRAID OF THE DOG. Literally: the child that the dog scares. (1 3 1)
kuwen muwon buso. THE DOG FRIGHTENED THE DOG (in VOS order, rare order for Dama, 4 2 1).
buso kuwen muwo. THE DOG CAUSES FEAR (FRIGHTENS) THE CHILD. (English style SVO order, 1 4 1)
buson muwo kuwe. THE DOG IS AFRAID OF THE CHILD. (OSV, 213, usual word order for Dama).
With added prepositions (“sime kumo”, literally “logical particles”), which work as separators to help group the words together: an =BECOMES, un =NEGATION, in =POSITION.
buso an muwon kuwe. THE DOG BECAME A FEAR TO THE CHILD. (SOV, 1 2 3)
buso un muwon kuwe. THE DOG DOESN'T FRIGHTEN THE CHILD. (SOV, 1 2 3)
muwo kuwo. THE CHILD IS AFRAID. (1 1) Here note that we might as well take it as “the child’s fear”. The essence is the same, because “the child’s fear (exists)” is the same as “the child is afraid”. It is a case of disambiguation achieved through the word order (7).
buso kuwo. THE DOG IS AFRAID. (1 1, as in the previous)
buso kuwe. THE DOG CREATES FEAR, THREATENS, IS DANGEROUS. (1 3) Here we realize that in some way the passive voice is inherent in every noun (-o) while the corresponding active verb (-e) indicates the active voice. The verb in –e (3) is at the same time an active participle: “the dog (is) fear-causing”; again the meaning is the same as “the dog threatens”, because of the word order (7) and the zero copula (8 ).
kuwe buso. THE DOG THAT FRIGHTENS, THE FRIGHTENING DOG. (3 1). This is because of the word order (7): a verb before the noun is a modifier of the noun, just as the preceding element is the modifing element in all cases.
kuwo buso. THE DOG WHICH IS AFRAID. (1 1) Although so simple, this construction cannot mean anything else, because of the word order and because of the contrast between –e (3) and –o (1).
an kuwo buso. THE FRIGHTENED DOG. (1 1) Same as the previous example, with the addition of “an” which shows a change. “an” is really a copula, which also works as a verb aspect marker, and as a separator to clarify how words are grouped together in forming the syntax tree.
Now to introduce the adverb and the genitive (5 and 6 above):
ras-=ORIGIN
muwo kuwo rasan buso. THE CHILD IS AFRAID OF THE DOG. (1 1 6 1) Here “rasan” works as a PREposition (literally: "child fear of-origin the-dog): the child’s fear is from the dog, because of the dog.
muwo rasa buso kuwo. OF THE CHILD, THE DOG (IS) AFRAID. (1 5 1 1) Here “rasa” is a POSTposition: it connects first with the previous: muwo+rasa =from the child. This construction is pretty foreign in European languages, but it is the really orthodox and preferable in Dama.
In fact, these were only a few examples, there is no limit to possibilities of syntax constructions by using only the suffixes 1 to 6 and the word order (7).
All this shows that Dama has not a special device on verbs for KIJE BO (passive voice), but has many ways to express it and in various word orders. The ending -on / -un, which has been reminiscent of Esperanto at least to a friend, is not exactly “object marking” but can be regarded as "passive voice subject marking". The object is anyway unmarked after a verb suffixed with -en / -in. (The difference o/u and e/i is not phonemic in Dama).
If we compare to other languages, we find that Dama cannot have a totally free word order as classical ancient Greek or Latin, but it has great flexibility in this matter compared to some other “natural” and “constructed” languages; especially i refer to the precious Latino sine Flexione, which is indeed precious in my view, but it is so terribly rigid although it has many indeclinable particles, conjunctions, prepositions, and suffixes for active participle, passive participle, infinitive, number, gender, and a verb (“es”) as copula (“is”). Dama achieves so much more flexibility with only an –n that can be added to the words which anyway must end with one of the 3 vowels (a, e/i, o/u), so the final vowel must indicate something, which is the fundamental part of speech.
Since we compare to other languages, a friend has extolled to me Lojban as the perfect logical language which has a “raison d’être” because of its logic, while Dama has not! But there is no language without sufficient logic: the very fact that a language functions as language means that it is a logical language. And anyway, since Dama can perform such functions as in the examples presented, it has nothing to envy in the logic of Lojban or in the ability of any language to form syntax trees.
Also it does not envy Toki Pona for having a preposition “pi” for the genitive case; Dama has means for all functions, but it is not obliged to indicate any function; it has many devices to substitute a genitive, but it can go unmarked: “a ruso tina” = “you – eye(s) – blue gem way” =your eyes are blue (rules 1 3 7 8 ); in case you must mark to avoid an ambiguity “you (are) a pig” / “your pig”, a common means is “se” (having): “a se jano” =the pig that you have =your pig (rule 3).
Latino sine Flexione has a term ready for passive and active voice (i suppose “voce passivo” and “voce activo”), but Dama terms are no less good: “kije bo” (“receiving action”) and “tube bo” (“giving action”), remember rule 3 and 7.

If it is poverty to have only 258 roots, still all these roots can become all parts of speech, and they can combine to express everything, usually with two words only, and these combinations are explicit: tuso saro (seed-powder) can only be “flour”, while –buro can only be “dough”, -niro is a slice, -tuto is pastry “filo”, -muko is a loaf of bread, -woso is noodles, -kino (“strips”) is broad noodles, -suso are roots emerging from the seeds, and so on. It is a big advantage to have only 258 roots together with the mentioned suffixes, because experimenting with my own constructed languages showed me that even 222 roots can work as a functional language, (well, sometimes you need a not-so-neat derivation process which is overcome if you have 36 more roots), and on the other hand it is an advantage over rich languages, because the Dama vocabulary can be learnt within one week only (this has also been tested) and then the world has an all-purpose language, moreover it is an advantage that people exercise their mind in order to express everything by using only those 258 roots, it is great fun too, and kind of therapy: when you feel confused or pressured, sit down and express the problem, and your hopes, in Dama; or, read in Dama the Zoroastrian story of Warharan Yazata, by reading which it is believed that all obstacles are overcome; alternatively, get a random phrase in Dama and see if it can be interpreted as an advice.
To know more or to challenge Dama, you can be a member in https://www.facebook.com/groups/omado.sosti.matiko/ Indeed, Dama was born just out of a challenge: i was too passionately stubborn to accept that so simple a thing could compete to my own conlang, or that such a vocabulary that came from mere random could ever be memorized; but after i came to memorize it within five days, it was impossible, in spite of all my efforts, to use again the language i had constructed and passionately loved before. In my conlang, while i received feedback from anyone, i could add, remove, or modify anything, and so i deed: i had to keep adjusting it to all the needs i perceived; on the other hand, after employing all means available by its phonology, Dama is not possible to be adjusted, i can only adjust myself to it, this is why i never consider it mine – but it won me, and if you get to know it, it may win you too!


Last edited by Dama Diwan on Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:57 am 
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Has anyone really been far as decided to construct even languages want to do look more like?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:40 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:53 am 
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http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/has-anyon ... -more-like

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Ansu frú ônal savel zaš gmlĥ a vek Adúljôžal vé jaga čaþ kex.
Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:38 am 
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valiums, you obviously mixed up your words so I don't know what you mean, but since you used the word "construct", I must say Dama is not constructed. It is the most natural thing that can work as a language. Its whole form is simple mathematics, and all forms got their meanings by pure divination, but always with the purpose to use for international communication.
So, let me now go to post it into another place.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:26 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:33 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:51 am 
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Kath the Dragon, I know almost nothing of Lojban or Esperanto. How Dama came to be, you can read here: https://www.academia.edu/12434367/theory_history

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:56 am 
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I cannot even.

To all ZBBers: please read this. It's hilarious.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:01 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:07 am 
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What's the word for that, where form and semantics are related like that?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:10 am 
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I think it was called visual onomatopoeia, either that, or some other kind of onomatopoeia. Such thing definitely exists, granted, but it's silly to say the least to think there's one combinations of sounds to be the be all and end all of a given concept/idea/characteristic/whatever.

IIRC in great many languages most of the words for small, big, fast, slow, etc. were such onomatopoeias.

Edit: look up those takete/baluba and kiki/bouba experiments, very relevant.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:12 am 
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Hmm, I was pretty sure there was some word for it when it was specifically the entire lexicon, as in this case. Does anyone remember that proposal to analyse PIE in exactly the same way (employing an idiosyncratic reconstruction to allow it)?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:17 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:24 am 
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Dang, I was sure that discussion was where I'd seen the word I'm thinking of.

Edit: While we're on the topic of that thread, how many milliNylands are we giving this?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:58 pm 
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What about 150?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:43 pm 
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I see you stick to the point of feelings from words. What I mean when I say that words give feelings?
Consider a few examples (I could give all the 264 morphemes as examples, but for reasons of time and space, here are 10)
SUWO warm
SUMO cold
BAWO bitter
MITO sweet
JEMO salt(y)
TAKO chest of the body
KIMO horse
JABO ox, bovine animals
BURO soft
SIMO opinion
All the Dama words speak to my senses. This is how I memorized them, although I did not define them. I feel the word JEMO is salty, BAWO is bitter, SUWO is warm, and so on. Some of you will laugh, I know, because somebody else told me he doesn't get feelings from words. American people, you see, westerners in general. I must try it with oriental people too, they have a different ability of feelings and concepts. As for me, I even get the smell of horses by the word KIMO, I feel the smell of cows, and even the heavy movement of bovines from the JABO, and even the feel the texture of dough from the word BURO. NOTE: ALL LETTERS IN DAMA ARE PRONOUNCED AS IN I.P.A., with pretty much space for personalization. Experiment with yourself: get another 10 words:
JUBO
MUSO
WAJO
NIWO
RABO
MASO
WIWO
TASO
SANO
KIBO
and try to get a feeling from each word. You will probably not get the same feelings, because you are influenced from the languages you already know, but just let the words speak to your senses, not only to vision, to all senses, and not only to senses, to inner feelings as well. SIMO (opinion, judgment) gives me a feeling of reasoning and forming an opinion, for example.
This is what I mean, exercise yourself to get feelings from words. Then, after you see the meanings, you will be able to remember them easily. There is another relevant term: Emotional Intelligence, I understand not everybody has it in the same degree and form.
Of course, in all languages words give feelings, but for Dama that is especially interesting, because the words were connected to their meanings through a random function, which is really divination. It is not only what you call onomatopoeia. It is also inner meanings in sounds and combinations. The West knows very little of all this. In India this has been a whole science, of how the name relates to the named, it is too long a story to tell here. Just ask yourselves, in the original language of all people, yes all people used only one language in the recent past, how did they connect form to meaning? only by imitating sounds? only by imitating the movements of mouth for making sounds? No, the old people had feelings.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:12 pm 
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It's a fun idea to play with, but... real languages don't work like that.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:06 pm 
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Ansu frú ônal savel zaš gmlĥ a vek Adúljôžal vé jaga čaþ kex.
Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:40 pm 
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Yeah, if you truly consistently get these senses from each of those words, then you might be a synesthete. (very few people truly are, so when you show us these words, most of us get no real sense from it, besides the vague hard or soft.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:03 pm 
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so, I learnt another interesting Greek word, synesthete. Ah, Greek is indispensable.
Those who write on this forum, if they put their Greek words together, will make a full language, all made up of indispensable words. Greek language is going to be extinct and that can be very soon, but the Greek vocabulary will remain internationally. The grammar to use with such a vocabulary, is the Dama grammar. You commented only on the sound effect of Dama, but you did not say anything of its grammar, syntax, and ability to convey meaning.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:02 pm 
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Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:13 am 
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So... a troll or a Nyland?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:09 am 
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Tatxàvtaǰe ámə vèqa xa tənópə mála éqrə xa líryə xâjxé āllémə kʼàrtāmə.
[tʰɐtˈχɐʋtɐdʒe ˈæːmɨ ˈʋeqɐ χɐ tʰɨˈnoːpɨ ˈmæːlɐ ˈeːqrɨ χɐ ˈliːrjɨ χɒːdzˈχeː æːlˈleːmɨ ˈkɐrtæːmɨ]
They are someone with strange ideas about conlanging.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:04 am 
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