Conlang with a Mayan-inspired script

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:19 pm

Here's the phonology that I posted to the Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread, which either is or is based on a phonology that gleb generated:

/m n/
/ⁿg ⁿɢ/
/p pʰ p’ b t tʰ t’ d k kʰ k’ g q qʰ q’ ɢ/
/f s h/
/w l j/

/u i a/

(C)V(m/n/ⁿg/ⁿɢ/f/h/w/l/j)

I'm not going to lie, my main motivation for working on this language is the script. I hope to derive the Tim Ar alphasyllabary from it, using clawgrip's excellent guide. It's very Mayan-style.

A little bit of conhistory

The Proto-Tim Ar-O speakers had a pretty significant empire, but no writing system, similar to the Inca. They probably kept some sort of numerical records (I want to have it be similar in purpose to but different in execution from quipu) and maybe had some proto-writing, but no real writing system per se. The empire eventually withered and fell, no doubt in part because of the conquest of what eventually became the Tim Ar by the speakers of this language. They brought with them their religion and, consequently, their script. The Tim Ar, down the line, ended up becoming a geopolitical group in their own right, but the script was adapted, in a much-simplified form, to fit their language.

Writing system

Here's some preliminary glyphs:

More: show

What I'm planning on doing is indicating sounds that close syllables using certain simplified glyphs for monosyllables placed atop the glyph. I'm still on the fence as to where sound complements would appear; I'd do the bottom but Mayan does that and so does Caber. Any advice?

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:23 pm

More glyphs:

More: show

Duns Scotus · Post by **Duns Scotus** » Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:40 pm

This is really awesome! I love it! One thing you might consider: how will this be simplified? Perhaps there will be a more complicated monumental script, and a simplified book hand, like Hieratic and Hieroglyphs proper. You might take a look at some images of Mayan codices to see how their writing was simplified.

HerljosScheindorf · Post by **HerljosScheindorf** » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:23 pm

I like it ! great work

I only find the glyph for "roots" to be a little confusing about the thing evocated, in total contrast with pretty every other logograms that appear pretty clear to me once the meaning is told a first time.

Frislander · Post by **Frislander** » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:11 am

duns_scotus wrote:This is really awesome! I love it! One thing you might consider: how will this be simplified? Perhaps there will be a more complicated monumental script, and a simplified book hand, like Hieratic and Hieroglyphs proper. You might take a look at some images of Mayan codices to see how their writing was simplified.

I'll second that, and also make the recommendation of considering the phonetic component and how that will be reflected in the system.

alynnidalar · Post by **alynnidalar** » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:54 am

They're gorgeous glyphs, though. I've wanted to create a similar script for some time, but just never was willing to put in the effort. I just love the look of Mayan and Mayan-type glyphs.

oxlahun · Post by **oxlahun** » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:42 pm

Those glyphs are lovely.

For dense square-ish glyphs, there aren't a lot of choices to add phonetic complements: the four sides, or infix the glyph inside a frame.

For this language, are the phonetic complements necessary? That is, is <tree> with particular complements semantically different from <tree> with other (or no) complements, or is it more like poetic emphasis?

If so, what about something more like ancient Egyptian determinatives—make the phonetic complements (some of which are the same glyphs) into their own glyph blocks? Even more fun: add the optional phonetic complement block only when it's not obvious which word you intended. Works fine for fluent readers, but it's a nightmare for archaeologists.

If not, then don't overthink it. Pick some sensible reading order within glyph blocks (maybe bottom to top if you're always going with the coda on top), and go with what the Mayans did: glom the complements on so the word-glyph is still dominant. If it doesn't work, visually, then don't use them on that word-glyph.

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:37 am

duns_scotus wrote:This is really awesome! I love it!

HerljosScheindorf wrote:I like it ! great work

I assume Frislander meant he seconded the entire comment when he wrote:I'll second that

alynnidalar wrote:They're gorgeous glyphs, though. I've wanted to create a similar script for some time, but just never was willing to put in the effort. I just love the look of Mayan and Mayan-type glyphs.

oxlahun wrote:Those glyphs are lovely.

Thank you!

duns_scotus wrote:One thing you might consider: how will this be simplified? Perhaps there will be a more complicated monumental script, and a simplified book hand, like Hieratic and Hieroglyphs proper. You might take a look at some images of Mayan codices to see how their writing was simplified.

Frislander wrote:I'll second that, and also make the recommendation of considering the phonetic component and how that will be reflected in the system.

I agree RE: the monumental/book script differences and think there will be two different such forms. The phonetic component is something I want to work out once I find out what the monosyllables are—phonetic complements would be simplified monosyllables (preferably from open syllables).

HerljosScheindorf wrote:I only find the glyph for "roots" to be a little confusing about the thing evocated, in total contrast with pretty every other logograms that appear pretty clear to me once the meaning is told a first time.

Interesting. I was trying to go for the whole roots stretching down into the ground and spreading out a ways thing.

oxlahun wrote:For dense square-ish glyphs, there aren't a lot of choices to add phonetic complements: the four sides, or infix the glyph inside a frame.

I'm thinking I'll go with the top for phonetic complements, the right for semantic ones.

oxlahun wrote:For this language, are the phonetic complements necessary? That is, is <tree> with particular complements semantically different from <tree> with other (or no) complements, or is it more like poetic emphasis?

In my current idea, they are necessary in some cases.

oxlahun wrote:If so, what about something more like ancient Egyptian determinatives—make the phonetic complements (some of which are the same glyphs) into their own glyph blocks? Even more fun: add the optional phonetic complement block only when it's not obvious which word you intended. Works fine for fluent readers, but it's a nightmare for archaeologists.

I'm kind of hesitant to do that, but that's mostly for aesthetic reasons. I'll have to see how this works out.

oxlahun wrote:If not, then don't overthink it. Pick some sensible reading order within glyph blocks (maybe bottom to top if you're always going with the coda on top), and go with what the Mayans did: glom the complements on so the word-glyph is still dominant. If it doesn't work, visually, then don't use them on that word-glyph.

I've decided to actually mark the onset rather than the coda. I'm thinking about using that exact solution, though it might cause some details to have to be omitted (hopefully the glyph will still be recognizable in that case).

Romanization

/m n/ m n
/ⁿg ⁿɢ/ ĝ ǧ
/p pʰ p’ b t tʰ t’ d k kʰ k’ g q qʰ q’ ɢ/ p ph p' b t th t' d k kh k' g q qh q' ġ
/f s h/ f s h
/w l j/ w l y

/u i a/ u i a (allophones [o e] written o e; allophone [æ] not distinguished in writing)

Numbers

This language counts in base twelve. Counting is done by bending the fingers in starting with the thumb. A closed fist is five, a closed fist with a thumb sticking out is six. Repeat for the other hand and you can count up to twelve.

fiĝ /fiⁿg/ [fiⁿg] one
liǧu /liⁿɢu/ [liⁿɢu] two
p'af /pʼaf/ [p’af] three
at'u /at’u/ [at’u] four
k'in /k’in/ [k’in] five
gi /gi/ [gi] six
ǧul /ⁿɢul/ [ⁿɢul] seven
ya /ja/ [ja] eight
ǧafa /ⁿɢafa/ [ⁿɢafa] nine
fi /fi/ [fi] ten
thul /tʰul/ [tʰul] eleven
wiqhu /wiqʰu/ [wiqʰu] twelve
t'im /t’im/ [t’im] 12²
p'owlu /p’uwlu/ [p’owlu] 12³
thuy /tʰuj/ [tʰuj] 12⁴
phuim /pʰuim/ [pʰuim] 12⁵

Allophonic rules

N > [+ same POA] / _C
wu ji > wo je
uw ij > ow ej
wj jw > jː wː
K > Q / _Q
Q > K / _K
S[+ voice] > [- voice] / _F
a > æ / _j

More glyphs

More: show

Some words to put to the glyphs

More: show

mèþru · Post by **mèþru** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:37 pm

Your scripts are really amazing masterpieces! As a person who has difficulty drawing stick figures, I wish I could make stuff like that. (Improving my drawing skills is on my agenda, but it is pretty far down on my list.)

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:54 pm

mèþru wrote:Your scripts are really amazing masterpieces! As a person who has difficulty drawing stick figures, I wish I could make stuff like that. (Improving my drawing skills is on my agenda, but it is pretty far down on my list.)

Thank you!

On the CBB, Keenir wrote:
What I'm planning on doing is indicating sounds that close syllables using certain simplified glyphs for monosyllables placed atop the glyph. I'm still on the fence as to where sound complements would appear; I'd do the bottom but Mayan does that and so does Caber. Any advice?
maybe to the side? (so the sound compliment that you want to use with, say, HEAD, would either be the wolf's neck or its snack...in terms of where it appears in relation to the wolf head HEAD itself)

I'm actually thinking I'll place the complement on the top of the glyph, and then simplify/compress the main glyph if needed.

And speaking of phonetic complements…

More: show

New glyphs

More: show

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:29 am

I suppose I should get down to grammar. Some of this you may already know; I apologize if so.

Pronouns

1SG ahi
1DL.INCL ĝu
1DL.EXCL t'aǧ
1PL.INCL mu
1PL.EXCL nil

2SG.M qu
2DL.M qilu
2PL.M qal

2SG.F qu may
2DL.F qilu may
2PL.F iqim

3SG ga
3DL ey
3PL k'uh

Dialectally, ga may, ey may, and either uk'um, ik'im, or k'uh may are sometimes used for female third-person referents.

Word order

Word order is pretty much SVO, much like Common Caber, except that you can optionally mark a topic. If the topic is, say, a direct object, it is still fronted but the appropriate pronoun is used in its place. If this is ambiguous you can replace the pronoun with the topic marker tay again; dialectally this is becoming more common in all cases.

Ga iǧġil wit'a.
ga iǧġil wit'a
3SG climb mountain
'he climbs the mountain'

Ga tay iǧġil wit'a.
ga tay iǧġil wit'a
3SG TOP climb mountain
'as for him, he climbs the mountain'

Wit'a tay ga iǧġil ga.
wit'a tay ga iǧġil ga
mountain TOP 3SG climb 3SG
'as for the mountain, he climbs it'

Note that in the case of the last sentence, the overt third-person pronoun ga as the subject means that the topic is not the subject.

Most adjectives follow their referent:

wit'a ĝahtey
wit'a ĝahtey
mountain tall
'tall mountain'

Numbers and the determiner way 'this, these' precede their noun:

way wit'a
way wit'a
this mountain
'this mountain'

fiĝ wit'a
fiĝ wit'a
one mountain
'one mountain'

Degree words come before their corresponding adjective:

mukhu ĝahtey
mukhu ĝahtey
too tall
'too tall'

Plurals

Plurals tend to be formed in one of the following ways.

The first, typical of stems ending in -{V,#}CV, is adding the suffix -nV, where V is an echo vowel of the final vowel in the stem. In writing this tends to be written with the glyph for nah MOON.

p'ugunu
p'ugu-nV
leaf-PL
'(three or more) leaves'

wit'ana
wit'a-nV
mountain-PL
'(three or more) mountains'

lini
li-nV
precious.stone-PL
'(three or more) precious stones'

The second tends to apply to open syllables following a closed syllable (-VCCV#): A syllable-final h is added. This is indicated in writing by using the glyph hu TREE.

affah
affa-h
nose-PL
'(three or more) noses'

t'unt'uh
t'unt'u-h
axe-PL
'(three or more) axes'

Syllables that end in a fricative or a nasal (or prenasalized stop) take the ending -:a, which geminates the previous consonant.

nimma
nim-:a
river.mouth-PL
'(three or more) river mouths'

sihha
sih-:a
hill-PL
'(three or more) hills'

suyuĝĝa
suyuĝ-:a
staff-PL
'(three or more) staffs'

qhunaĝĝa
qhunaĝ-:a
qhunang.tree-PL
'(three or more) qhunaĝ trees'

ĝiffa
ĝif-:a
ear-PL
'(three or more) ears'

The final regular method of pluralization is the suffix -wi.

yulwi
yul-wi
lake-PL
'(three or more) lakes'

upuqilwi
upuqil-wi
spear-PL
'(three or more) spears'

wowwi
woy-wi
feather-PL
'(three or more) feathers'

thiwwi
they-wi
they-PL
'(three or more) they plants'

A few words take the suffix -y, though this is rare. There is no way to predict this, though the majority of the words that take a plural in -y are monosyllables.

huy
hu-y
tree-PL
'(three or more) trees'

k'ay
k'a-y
doorway-PL
'(three or more) doorways'

ĝuy
ĝu-y
finger-PL
'(three or more) fingers'

dey
di-y
shell-PL
'(three or more) shells'

Duals

There is much less variation in the formation of duals.

Words that end in a consonant take the suffix -u. In writing this is indicated using the full form of the appropriate phonetic complement glyph, where the ending consonant is considered the onset.

uhuyu
uhuy-u
hand-DL
'two hands'

theyu
they-u
circle-DL
'two circles'

guthawo
guthaw-u
claw-DL
'two claws'

khahu
khah-u
knife-DL
'two knives'

If the word ends in a vowel, the suffix -wo is added. This is indicated with the glyph for woy FEATHER.

uhkhowo
uhkhu-wo
head-DL
'two heads'

ganliwo
ganli-wo
cloud-DL
'two clouds'

phuliwo
phuli-wo
foot-DL
'two feet'

ĝiqhawo
ĝiqha-wo
type.of.insect-DL
'two ĝiqhas'

luhiwo
luhi-wo
stick.branch-DL
'two sticks, two branches'

The Seven Kill Stele

Nagiĝĝa tay uya thunu eyaǧnutha sey yuhnu phayq'ih.
nagiĝ-:a tay uya thu-nV eyaǧ-nu-tha sey yuh-nu phayq'i-h
god-PL TOP give thing-PL count-able-NEG in.order.to nourish-NMLZ person-PL

Phayq'ih tay ha k'uh tha ha uyayun ha nagiĝĝa.
phayq'i-h tay ha k'uh tha ha uya-yu-n ha nagiĝ-:a
person-PL TOP DAT 3PL NEG DAT give-back-NMLZ DAT god-PL

P'al. P'al. P'al. P'al. P'al. P'al. P'al.
p'al p'al p'al p'al p'al p'al p'al
kill kill kill kill kill kill kill

WeepingElf · Post by **WeepingElf** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:23 pm

Rock'n'roll.

Carolina Conlanger · Post by **Carolina Conlanger** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:59 pm

This is probably the most impressive thing I've seen here.

mèþru · Post by **mèþru** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:31 pm

Did you look at his Caber Logography?

Carolina Conlanger · Post by **Carolina Conlanger** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:11 pm

mèþru wrote:Did you look at his Caber Logography?

That was really cool as well.

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:53 pm

WeepingElf wrote:Rock'n'roll.

Carolina Conlanger wrote:This is probably the most impressive thing I've seen here.

Carolina Conlanger wrote:
mèþru wrote:Did you look at his Caber Logography?
That was really cool as well.

Thank you!

Verb marking

-Ø STATIVE IMPERFECTIVE

One could almost call this the 'simple imperfective'. It's the default form of the verb.

ga uya
ga uya-Ø
3SG give-STAT.IMPF
'he gives, he's giving'

ga bat'uġ
ga bat'uġ-Ø
3SG know-STAT.IMPF
'he knows'

-tha DYNAMIC IMPERFECTIVE

The dynamic imperfective emphasizes that the situation is changing or ongoing right now (for "now" meaning "at the time relevant to the utterance").

ga uyatha
ga uya-tha
3SG give-DYN.IMPF
'he is in the process of giving, he's giving right now, he's in the middle of giving'

ga bat'uġtha
ga bat'uġ-tha
3SG know-DYN.IMPF
'he learns, he's learning'

-k/-ak ITERATIVE

ga uyak
ga uya-k
3SG give-ITER
'he gives again and again, he's giving over and over'

ga bat'uġak
ga bat'uġ-ak
3SG know-ITER
'he memorizes it, he focuses on it'

-w/-u CONTINUATIVE

The difference between the continuative and the dynamic imperfective is that the continuative has the sense that the action is taking a particularly long time, and the continuative does not imply any significant change pursuant to the action.

ga uyaw
ga uya-w
3SG give-CONT
'he is still giving'

ga bat'uġu
ga bat'uġ-u
3SG know-CONT
'he still remembers it, he still knows it'

-wol PERFECTIVE

ga uyawol
ga uya-wol
3SG give-PERF
'he gave'

ga bat'uġwol
ga bat'uġ-wol
3SG know-PERF
'he knew'

You can stack aspect markers:

ga bat'uġthak
ga bat'uġ-tha-k
3SG know-DYN.STAT-ITER
'he's in the middle of memorizing it'

Some derivational morphology

-a/-ha 'people of (noun)'

The form -ha is used after a final -a; otherwise the form -a is suffixed. Note that the noun refers to people as a group, but is treated as a singular noun for grammatical purposes.

khay 'plateau' > khaya 'people of the plateau'
wiqhu 'twelve' > wiqhua 'people of twelve (i.e., who use base-twelve)' (used of ethnic Khaya to differentiate themselves from peoples they conquered)
fi 'ten' > fia 'people of ten' (used to refer to the pre-Tim Ar)

-ni 'singular/singulative (of collective)'

This is applied to mass nouns to indicate a singular or singulative. It can be combined with -a/-ha above.

unnuh 'soup, stew' > unnuhni 'helping of soup, helping of stew'
p'uǧakhu 'sweat' > p'uǧakhuni 'bead of sweat, sweat droplet'
khaya 'people of the plateau' > khayani 'one of the Khaya'
wiqhua 'people of twelve' > wiqhuani 'one of the Wiqhua'

-khu 'characteristic substance'

thah 'cook, prepare food' > thahkhu 'spice, seasoning'
phan 'grind' > phankhu 'flour'
yuh 'feed, nourish' > yuhkhu 'food'
p'uǧa 'sweat (v.)' > p'uǧakhu 'sweat (n.)'

-aĝ 'to have (a/an) X'

q'aǧi 'bowl' > q'aǧiaĝ 'have a bowl'
qhuh 'rope' > qhuhaĝ 'have some rope'
suyuĝ 'staff' > suyuĝaĝ 'have a staff'
upuqil 'spear' > upuqilaĝ 'have a spear'

One can use adverbialized adjectives on -aĝ constructions to attribute some sort of quality to the possessum.

ga qhuhaĝ idimbun
ga qhuh-aĝ idin-bun
3SG rope-have long-ADV
'he has a long rope'

The suffix -aĝ is never used with body parts. A construction with the preposition ha is used in that case:

biǧnihu tay ga hu ey
biǧnih-u tay ga hu ey
arm-DL TOP 3SG DAT 3DL
'as for arms, he's got two of them'

-bun ADVERBIALIZER

idin 'long' > idimbun 'long' (note the n > m assimilation)
phalun 'resolute' > phalumbun 'resolute(ly)'

alynnidalar · Post by **alynnidalar** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:55 am

Pogostick Man wrote: -aĝ 'to have (a/an) X'

q'aǧi 'bowl' > q'aǧiaĝ 'have a bowl'
qhuh 'rope' > qhuhaĝ 'have some rope'
suyuĝ 'staff' > suyuĝaĝ 'have a staff'
upuqil 'spear' > upuqilaĝ 'have a spear'

One can use adverbialized adjectives on -aĝ constructions to attribute some sort of quality to the possessum.

ga qhuhaĝ idimbun
ga qhuh-aĝ idin-bun
3SG rope-have long-ADV
'he has a long rope'

I like this! Were you inspired by any particular natlang here?

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:34 am

alynnidalar wrote:
Pogostick Man wrote: -aĝ 'to have (a/an) X'

q'aǧi 'bowl' > q'aǧiaĝ 'have a bowl'
qhuh 'rope' > qhuhaĝ 'have some rope'
suyuĝ 'staff' > suyuĝaĝ 'have a staff'
upuqil 'spear' > upuqilaĝ 'have a spear'

One can use adverbialized adjectives on -aĝ constructions to attribute some sort of quality to the possessum.

ga qhuhaĝ idimbun
ga qhuh-aĝ idin-bun
3SG rope-have long-ADV
'he has a long rope'
I like this! Were you inspired by any particular natlang here?

Thank you! According to the Conlang Wikia, Hixkaryana has a derivation for "to have X", but doesn't really say much about it; the thing with the adverb modifying the possessum just seemed like a logical extension.

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:11 pm

Simplified/hand versions of the phonetic complements:

More: show

Some working with the script and its simplification. The second image contains part of the Seven Kill Stele (which will probably have to be updated) and indicates the typical writing direction: Top to bottom, left to right.

More: show

Potential simplifications of full glyphs. I'm happy with some of these and unhappy with a lot of them. Any thoughts? Apologies that these are somewhat out of order. In retrospect, I probably should've labeled them.

More: show

Ser · Post by **Ser** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:17 am

Pretty scripty!

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:17 pm

Serafín wrote:Pretty scripty!

Thank you!

A potential daughter syllabary. In-universe this developed originally as a way to write the classical language (which was retained for use in official records) before being used for a daughter language.

More: show

Codas are indicated by using a glyph with the same vowel immediately following it (e.g., khay 'plateau' would be spelled KHA-YA). To indicate two consecutive syllables without codas but with the same vowel, one uses the appropriate null-onset glyph (e.g., khaya 'Khaya people' would be spelled KHA-A-YA).

WeepingElf · Post by **WeepingElf** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:47 am

WOW! That's an ENORMOUS change of style!

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:28 pm

The elements of antiquity in Classical Khaya:

t'ihsa 'copper'
hulyu 'tin'
qhaĝ 'iron'
suykul 'mercury'
mowol 'lead'
baft'ih 'silver'
lu 'gold'

mèþru · Post by **mèþru** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:31 pm

Not an "earth, fire water, wind" kind of thing?

Pogostick Man · Post by **Pogostick Man** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:40 pm

mèþru wrote:Not an "earth, fire water, wind" kind of thing?

I suppose I should clarify: These are the elements (of the Periodic Table) that people in antiquity knew about.

zompist bboard

Conlang with a Mayan-inspired script

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