Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs.

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs.

Post by Knit Tie »

Hello again, everybody!

Hopefully you remember me from the romanisation challenge thread, where I asked for help with writing my decidedly un-English evolution of English with the same letters that are used in English, but even if you don't it's no big deal, since I'm going to give you a link to the document again anyway and ask for your critique and your help in figuring out some grammar for the bloody thing that would fit well with the sound changes, and also hopefully in finishing the phonology up with some allophones, tone sandhi and dialectal differences.

Thanks in advance and have a nice day!

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Knit Tie wrote:Hello, ladies and gentlemen, my name is German (yes, seriously. It's pronounced [ɡʲɛ̝ɾmɐn̪], though) and I'd like to ask for help in romanising my diachronic mutilation of English.

The phonology can be found here and I'm deliberately going for something opaque and possibly defective.
mèþru wrote:Welcome to the ZBB! Have some pickles and tea! (It's a board tradition for welcoming new members).
ImageImage
German (yes, seriously. It's pronounced [ɡʲɛ̝ɾmɐn̪]
Not an uncommon name, actually.
Knit Tie wrote:I'm deliberately going for something opaque and possibly defective.
Just keep the current orthography. :-D
I can post a more language specific defective orthography later. Check Zzmpist's rules for predicting English pronunciation from spelling.
mèþru wrote:Orthography for Shayana (WIP, probably has errors):
Shayana:
/pʰ p~p͡x pʲ~pʲj tʰ t~t͡x tʲ~tʲj kʰ k~k͡x kʲ~kʲj ʔ/ <p b~pk by t d~tk dy k g~kk gy k~g~rh~h>
/m~m͡x mʲ~mʲj n~n͡x nʲ~nʲj~ɲ ŋ/ <m my n ny ng>
/ɾ~ɾ͡x/ <r>
/t͡sʰː t͡s~t͡sx t͡sʲ~t͡sʲj t͡ʂ̺ʰː t͡ʂ̺ t͡ɕ̻/ <ts ds dsy ch j jy>
/f s ʂ̺~ɕ̻ x/ <f~v s~z sh~zh~s k>
/ɹ~ɹj j w/ <ry y w>
/lʲ~lʲj~ʎ ɫ~ɫ͡x/ <ly l>
/i ɪ u e ə o ɐ/ <i~ü i~ü u e~ün~üm~ü oe o a>
/ĩ ɪ̃ ũ ũ˩ ə̃˩ ɛ̃ ɔ̃ ɔ̃˩ ɐ̃ ɐ̃˩ ä̃ː/ <in~im in~im un~um uhn~uhm oehn~oeahn~oehm~oeahm en~em on~om ohn~oahn~ohm~oahm an~am ann~amm ahn~ahm an> (use the nasal used in the original English)
/u˩ o˩ ə˩ ɐ˩/ <uh oh~oah oeh~oeah ah>, but only if the vowel was pharyngealised before Vˀ → V˩
For owels with contrastive length in Old Shayana, /VːC VC/ <VC VCC> with the following exceptions:
  • /Vt͡ʃʷ/ <Vtch>
  • /Vd͡ʒʷ/ <Vdj>
  • Just double the nasal in nasal vowels
    No doubling for approximants, /h/ or other digraphs
An interpunct grave accent can be used to separate letters or as syllabification markers to ease reading. Vowel length is not indicated.

I'll make document with detailed instructions for spelling à la Zompist.
Knit Tie wrote:That looks amazing, mèþru. I take it the post Old-Shayana long vowels aren't marked and are instead inferred from context?

My own attempt at romanising Shayana is trying to imitate the results of a completely new orthography developed somewhere after the Middle period that has since then been given the occasional facelift. It also looks like Irish because the man who was updating it to mark phonemic palatalisation was a big fan of Celtic languages in-universe and because I love how the Irish orthgraphy looks in real life :P

/pʰ p~p͡x pʲ~pʲj tʰ t~t͡x tʲ~tʲj kʰ k~k͡x kʲ~kʲj ʔ/ <p b~bp~bh bj~b t d~dt~dh dj~d c~k g~gc~gh gj~g q~h>
/m~m͡x mʲ~mʲj n~n͡x nʲ~nʲj~ɲ ŋ/ <m~mh mj~m n~nh nj~n ng>
/ɾ~ɾ͡x/ <r~rh>
/t͡sʰː t͡s~t͡sx t͡sʲ~t͡sʲj t͡ʂ̺ʰː t͡ʂ̺ t͡ɕ̻/ <c~ts ds~dsh~dts dsj~ds tz dz~dtz dś>
/f s ʂ̺ ɕ̻ x/ <f s z ś k~x~ch>
/ɹ~ɹj j w/ <rj~r y v>
/lʲ~lʲj~ʎ ɫ~ɫ͡x/ <lj~l l~lh>
Palatalisation or lack thereof is only indicated when a sun consonant is followed by /i/ or /e/ or when a moon consonant is not followed by /i/ or /e/, with the exception of <z>, <ś> and the digraphs that contain them, which are always used to indicate their corresponding phonemes.
/ɪ u e ə o ɐ/ <i~y u e~yn~oe eu o a>
/i: u: e: ə: o: ä:/ <í~ý ú é~ýn~óe éu ó á>
/ɪ̃ ĩ: ũ ũ: ɛ̃ ɛ̃: ə̃˩ ə̃:˩ ɔ̃ ɔ̃: ɐ̃ ä̃:/ <in ín un ún en én euhn éuhn on ón an án
/ɪ˩ u˩ e˩ ə˩ o˩ ɐ˩/ <ih~yh uh eh~yhn~oeh euh oh ah>
/i:˩ u:˩ e:˩ ə:˩ o:˩ ä:˩/ <íh~ýh úh éh~ýhn~óeh éuh óh áh>
/ɪ̃˩ ĩ:˩ ũ˩ ũ˩: ɛ̃˩ ɛ̃˩: ɔ̃˩ ɔ̃˩: ɐ̃˩ ä̃˩:/ <ihn íhn uhn úhn ehn éhn ohn óhn ahn áhn
To contrast nasalised vowels with vowel+n sequences, double the <n>. Vowel+<m> is always a vowel+nasal sequence.
Long vowels may not be marked at all, though marking them is preferred in official documentation.
mèþru wrote:
Knit Tie wrote:post Old-Shayana long vowels aren't marked and are instead inferred from context
Correct. I couldn't think of a way to mark them without getting rid of Old Shayana long vowels and decided it might be fun to not bother at all.
I just made an English-based mostly phonemic orthographic reform for Old Shayana, and then let it evolve as I think it would without further reform. The details of how it evolved will be posted here as Google Doc later.
Knit Tie wrote:Palatalisation or lack thereof is only indicated when a sun consonant is followed by /i/ or /e/ or when a moon consonant is not followed by /i/ or /e/, with the exception of <z>, <ś> and the digraphs that contain them, which are always used to indicate their corresponding phonemes.
I wanted to do that or something like it, but I quickly lost track of my own orthography! That's why I'm going to make the Google Doc.
Knit Tie wrote:It also looks like Irish because the man who was updating it to mark phonemic palatalisation was a big fan of Celtic languages in-universe and because I love how the Irish orthgraphy looks in real life :P
I did it the way did it because these are supposed to be isolationist English speakers, right? There is no foreign influence except for using regular vowels rather than English ones, as well as <ü> because it is common in metal bands to add umlautsand also to say something is über. Also, why is the orthography reformed if you can have a super complicated one based off the natural evolution of an unregulated alphabet?
Knit Tie wrote:To contrast nasalised vowels with vowel+n sequences, double the <n>. Vowel+<m> is always a vowel+nasal sequence.
Why bother showing this contrast when it can be inferred from context and a native speaker's memory of how words are pronounced?
Knit Tie wrote:
I did it the way did it because these are supposed to be isolationist English speakers, right? There is no foreign influence except for using regular vowels rather than English ones, as well as <ü> because it is common in metal bands to add umlauts and also to say something is über. Also, why is the orthography reformed if you can have a super complicated one based off the natural evolution of an unregulated alphabet?
Isolationist English speakers who are from a multitude of different cultures and speak English mostly because it was the lingua franca of their space colonist ancestors, plus they were heavily into promoting immigration (followed by assimilation, of course) when the orthographic reform occured.
Why bother showing this contrast when it can be inferred from context and a native speaker's memory of how words are pronounced?
To make it easier for all the non-native speakers to read, now that they are easing up on the isolationism and picking up on imperialism.
mèþru wrote:Non-Dravidian members of the colony (I’m assuming that Dravidian speakers are not a majority) will have trouble differentiating dental from alveolar stops, so I think that the merger should be as soon as the dental fricatives become stops. Also, what happens to /w/ in a postvocalic position besides those after /a o/?
Vijay wrote:
mèþru wrote:Dravidian
*ears perk up* :P
Knit Tie wrote:
mèþru wrote:Non-Dravidian members of the colony (I’m assuming that Dravidian speakers are not a majority) will have trouble differentiating dental from alveolar stops, so I think that the merger should be as soon as the dental fricatives become stops. Also, what happens to /w/ in a postvocalic position besides those after /a o/?
Some modern varieties of English do distinguish between dental and alveolar stops already without being Dravidian, so I'd say that it's plausible. As for the postvocalic /w/ after vowels other than /a/, /o/ and /u/, it remains there to this day.

We really shouldn't discuss the actual conland in the romanisation challenge thread, methinks.
I'm still working on my romanisation, by the way. I still think that most of the speakers will have trouble differentiating between dental and alveolar stops, especially as many Romance languages use denti-alveolar stops. Also, /iw/ could collapse into /y/ and /ew/ into /ø/ before these sounds emerge from /u/.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by KathTheDragon »

Holy quote wall

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

I suggest a tone dissimilation: when unstressed two syllables have the same vowel and mid tone, the first becomes high tone.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

/iw/ and /ew/ coalescence sounds really good, but I'm not so sure about tone dissimilation - maybe make it a dialectal thing?

But speaking of tones, I'm thinking about making the low tones phonetically spread over two syllables, with the syllable preceding the low-tone one acquiring a falling contour tone if there's a pause after the low-tone syllable, and otherwise with the low-tone syllable having a falling contour tone and the next syllable, which can be across a word boundary, having a rising contour tone.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

That sounds good. I don't really know much abut tone. I suggested what I did because I felt that your system, with only one tone other than mid, which doesn't really occur often, is lacking. Your idea is probably better than mine and also solves that gap.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Nortaneous »

why are there no palatalized aspirated plosives?
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Nortaneous wrote:why are there no palatalized aspirated plosives?
Read the second link in the first quote. It provides a list of sound changes. This actually makes sense to me. Palatalisation emerges after the fortition of English fortis consonants to aspirates in all positions. As the fortis consonants are now stronger than lenis ones comparing every position in one set to every position in another, the fortis could be a more coherent, resistant to sound change group than unaspirated ones. Then again, I might have misconceptions on how this whole sound change resistance thing works.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Nort - I actually did a fair bit of experimenting (i.e. talking to myself) with this and decided that strong aspiration can more or less "override" palatalization phonetically to the point of the latter being barely discernible, and that the palatalised aspirates therefore wouldn't be distinctive enough to become phonemes, but I can be wrong here.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

I have trouble with both palatalised/non-palatalised contrasts and contrasting aspirates with tenius stops, but I think that there is an audible difference (especially if one or both of them are realised with a glide). My conlang Proto-Kkasetean (aka Khásoitoi) has both regular stops, palatalised stops, aspirated stops, and palatalised aspirated stops.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Then how about we say that aspirated obstruents never became phonetically palatalised in the first place, since they were followed by a noticeable [h] as an offglide?

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by vokzhen »

I pointed out elsewhere that palatalization of one VOT without palatalization of the other is, as far as I'm aware, unattested. If anything happened, I'd expect aspiration and palatalization to reinforce each other, such as pʰʲ tʰʲ kʰʲ > pɕ tɕ kɕ.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

That could be an interesting way to increase the amount of palatal sounds in the language, or another allophonic frication/glide thing. Speaking about allophonic frication/glide things, does the velar frication in plain consonants become reanalysed as clusters of stop or affricate+ /x/ after /x/ becomes a phoneme?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Hallow XIII »

Knit Tie wrote:Nort - I actually did a fair bit of experimenting (i.e. talking to myself) with this and decided that strong aspiration can more or less "override" palatalization phonetically to the point of the latter being barely discernible, and that the palatalised aspirates therefore wouldn't be distinctive enough to become phonemes, but I can be wrong here.
"i can't hear a distinction my native language doesn't make when i produce it" is possibly the worst possible strategy for deciding what is and isn't possible
besides, for all intents and purposes sound change has no basis in phonetics
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Travis B. »

Does anyone have any knowledge of cases where lenis stops palatalized and fortis stops at the same POA did not, in any given environment? The only case that comes to the top of my head at the moment is Arabic, and this was unconditional palatalization, and /g/ is already the least favored lenis stop out of /b d g/.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Hallow XIII wrote:"i can't hear a distinction my native language doesn't make when i produce it" is possibly the worst possible strategy for deciding what is and isn't possible
That's true, but my native language does make a hell of a lot of phonemic distinctions when it comes to palatalisation, so I thought that I might be qualified to judge when palatalisations work and when they don't :P

Although seriously, I simply couldn't find any information about any languages with both aspiration and palatalisation contrasts other than Scottish Gaelic, which is a phonological mess, and was left with nothing but my own guesswork with regards to how these two mechanisms would interact. I guessed wrong, as it turns out.

Though I have to admit that the reason Shayana has no palatalised aspirated obstruents is mostly "political," in the sense that I wanted to both include palatalisation-as-an-alternate-dimension into my conlang because it's so underrepresented in that field and make it sufficiently different from both Russian and Irish. Those two languages have rather symmetrical palatalised-unpalatalised pair systems, annd I decided that maybe going for some deliberate asymmetry would be nice.

In any case, the verdict is that a lack of palatalisation on aspirates is unrealistic, and I'll try to rectify it immediately. The question is, then - what would the aspirates palatalise to? Maybe they would undergo full palatalisation, as opposed to the partial aspiration of their tenuis counterparts?
Hallow XIII wrote:besides, for all intents and purposes sound change has no basis in phonetics
Really? I never knew that.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Nortaneous »

languages with aspirated palatalized consonants, according to PHOIBLE: Irish, Yeyi, Igbo, Lai, Bora, Jaqaru, Paez
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Frislander »

Knit Tie wrote:
Hallow XIII wrote:"i can't hear a distinction my native language doesn't make when i produce it" is possibly the worst possible strategy for deciding what is and isn't possible
That's true, but my native language does make a hell of a lot of phonemic distinctions when it comes to palatalisation, so I thought that I might be qualified to judge when palatalisations work and when they don't :P
OK, so your native language is Russian, which doesn't distinguish aspiration, the reverse situation to English.
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Yes, but since I speak both fluently, I thought that it wasn't such a stupid idea, you see...
I'm just digging myself deeper here, am I not?

Anyway, expect an update this evening.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by vokzhen »

Knit Tie wrote:In any case, the verdict is that a lack of palatalisation on aspirates is unrealistic, and I'll try to rectify it immediately. The question is, then - what would the aspirates palatalise to? Maybe they would undergo full palatalisation, as opposed to the partial aspiration of their tenuis counterparts?
I stand by my earlier suggestion pʰʲ tʰʲ kʰʲ > pɕ tɕ kɕ (> tɕ > ɕ). Clusters of /pʰj kʰj/ ending up as phonetically a stop-fricative cluster isn't too uncommon from what I know. Another possibility is several independent changes, but it's likely to effect more than just the aspirated, e.g. palatalized labials often "lingualize" to /t c tʃ/ etc but once again it generally effects the whole series (Standard Czech pj bj mj > dialectical t d n, Polish pj bj mj > dialectical pɕ bʑ mȵ, Tswana pʰj p'j bj > tʃʰw tʃ'w dʒw, Lhasa Tibetan pj bj mj > tɕʰ tɕ ɲ).

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

That took a bit longer than I expected and I've yet to deal with the wonky way Google docs handles tables, but it's done - the link above now leads Shayana 2.0, now with vowel reduction and palatalised aspirates. Please take a look.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

I'm still working on Shayana 1.0 romanisation...
Also, what about my suggestions from earlier (/iw ew/ collapsing into /y ø/ and an earlier alveolar-dental merger among speakers who don't come from places on Earth with this distinction.)
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Coming right up.

EDIT: And it's done!

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

This looks absolutely amazing, methru, especially the sound change table at the end. Here, have a link to Shayana V1.0 since that thing deserves a new lease on life with a writing system this good.

Maybe I can actually even turn it into a dialect where palatalised aspirates all turned into something else.

Speaking of dialects, what kind of dialectal variation do you think could most likely be there in a phonology like that.

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