West African - Native American Creole

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onshoulders
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West African - Native American Creole

Post by onshoulders »

Has anyone done any work on or heard of any natural language that is a creole of African languages and Native American (Amerindian/1st Nations) languages? I am thinking of trying a creole for escaped slaves and native americans secluded (maybe) in the southern Appalachians. Any direction would be helpful. Thanks.

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by Vijay »

There already is a creole spoken by escaped slaves who lived (and IIRC, intermarried) with Native Americans in the southern Appalachians (and by their descendants to this day). It's called Afro-Seminole Creole. AFAICT, it doesn't have all that much influence from African languages and even less from Native American languages. It's an English-based creole because that's what the earliest slaves in the US spoke (and probably most slaves elsewhere in the Americas).

Generally, it seems to me that when escaped slaves came into contact with Native Americans, they would either continue to speak either a European language or a creole where the lexifier language is a European language, or they would adopt the Native Americans' language while maintaining a few words from African languages (see Miskito and Garifuna for examples if you're interested/curious).

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by onshoulders »

Thanks. I'll check into the links you provided. I recognized that English was more likely to be used historically, but I wanted to imagine the unlikely scenario that a group of slaves who maintained their African languages (either all from one group, a lingua franca, or a creole of African languages themselves) escaped in large enough number to encounter a Native group (of small enough number) to encourage the development of a pidgin (then creole) among the two groups. I'm not opposed to a little English being used as well.

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by mèþru »

Slaves already begin speaking European language based creoles before their escape, as these languages are used in the various trading posts of the West African coast, on plantations both in West Africa and the Americas and on the slave ships filled with many people from different parts of West Africa. The lingua franca among slaves was usually English or Portuguese based creoles, although French and Dutch creoles also emerged in the Caribbean. Most Amerinds already knew of European languages and had interpreters among them. The scenario you want is almost impossible.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by onshoulders »

So you're telling me there's a chance!

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by k1234567890y »

sounds interesting (: maybe you can consider to make one.
See here for a short introduction of some of my conlangs: http://cals.conlang.org/people/472

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by mèþru »

onshoulders wrote:So you're telling me there's a chance!
Well, it requires the unlikely situation that all of the slaves have a mutually intelligible language in common besides English. FOr that to happen, they have to come from the same area in Africa. Slaves were specifically separated and remixed into groups to avoid this, as the masters needed to make sure that the slaves could only communicate in a manner intelligible to their superiors.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by Vijay »

Maybe we could twist history and have them come from western/northern Africa in the 1800s or something and use Hausa as a common language, or from Central Africa so they can speak Sango. :P Or they could come from East Africa and speak Swahili. Idk.

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by Zaarin »

Vijay wrote:Or they could come from East Africa and speak Swahili.
That sounds efficient. :p
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by mèþru »

East Africa makes no sense. West Africa is much closer (so higher probability of getting there safely and less money spent on supplies for journey). I can't think of any plausible change would help your scenario.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by onshoulders »

I imagine I'll still go with a group of escaped slaves from West Africa that managed to find an isolated (from European settlers) spot and purposely developed an African lingua franca for ideological purposes. Maybe maintaining their language and developing a pidgin with a neighboring Native tribe, again refusing English on ideological grounds. This eventually creolifying.
I hardly care if it's likely to happen as long as I can explain how it happened.

And for those following, here's a 'tri-racial' group that isn't as isolated as the group I'm imagining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by mèþru »

Slaves were mainly undeucated and from tribal societies that didn't really develop advanced political systems. Even those who came from organised kingdoms wouldn't really have the importance that the modern world places on ideologies. Also, when you are running for your life, ideologies jsut don't matter much. I'nm sure the group would use whatever language is easiest for communication. Perhaps they managed to find other slaves of their language group. I read that Akan (the biggest non-English influence on Jamaican Patois) used to be spoken in Jamaica and that new slaves assimilated into Akan society after arriving.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by mèþru »

Also, notice that the Melungeon speak English. The Black Seminoles speak a dialect of Gullah (the Afro-Seminole Creole Vijay mentioned). The most creole groups, in terms of culture, is probably the Garifuna, which speak an Island Carib-based creole (see Vijay's post for the link).
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by onshoulders »

mèþru wrote:Also, notice that the Melungeon speak English. The Black Seminoles speak a dialect of Gullah (the Afro-Seminole Creole Vijay mentioned). The most creole groups, in terms of culture, is probably the Garifuna, which speak an Island Carib-based creole (see Vijay's post for the link).
Certainly. And because of their lack of isolation later developed some complicated identity politics.
I don't think 'tribal' or 'uneducated' means they cannot be motivated ideologically. I do grant that running/surviving would emphasize pragmatism, but upon settling and feeling relatively secure, with some charismatic leadership, a purposeful shift is feasible.

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by mèþru »

What I'm trying to say is that ideology want a big thing at the time in African societies. Ideology wasn't as big of a thing as today even in European societies. Religion largely held the role political movements would have today, as well as being the guiding force of social interaction, the caste system and day-to-day activities.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by onshoulders »

I see. I think we are using 'ideology' in different ways. I meant to convey that the people of African descent would on principle or as an act of rebellion refrain from speaking English.

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by mèþru »

They already escaped. There is no need for further rebellion, and I don't think that escaped slaves of the time cared much for symbolic political acts.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by Élerhe »

Have you thought about travel in the opposite direction?

Have the US expel some Native Americans to Liberia - would that be a possibility?

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Re: West African - Native American Creole

Post by onshoulders »

Interesting idea. It doesn't quite fit my purposes in the case I was planning, but it's an interesting thought. Though I'm sure the same English speaking issue would arise. English is pretty common in Liberia.

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