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zompist bboard • View topic - Terghbaz (Generic Orkish)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:39 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Last edited by Chengjiang on Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:47 pm 
Sanno
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:13 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:06 pm 
Smeric
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This looks pretty well made so far. The phonotactics seem well thought out, and while the sturdiness of /ʌ/ seems odd, Im guessing you chose that on purpose fully aware that it stands close to two of the other vowels. Some people say that English lax vowels, especially /ʌ/, have a rude sound. Did that influence your choice? It could be that they only sound rude because they occur only in closed syllables, and mostly in closed stressed syllables.

I imagine you might need a few more rules on the phonotactics to prevent clusters like /χk/ at the end of a word ... or is that allowed? If so I'd be tempted to include either uvular allophones for the stops or (less likely) velar allophones for the fricatives ... but I could be wrong about this. What I do know is that velar/uvular clusters are generally not found when both of them have the same MOA.

The phonology is actually not much different from English. Im not sure if thats on prpose, but if you later find you want a language with a sharper bite, you could ocnsider adding ejectives and/or pharyngealized vowels, both of which are found in Caucasian languages which I find to be the "sharpest" and harshest languages Ive ever heard in person. (though to be honest, Ive probably only ever heard one of them: Georgian, which doesnt have the pharyngeal vowels, but does have nice things like "miqvarkhar" ~ "I love you" and a few words with four or more initial consonants in a row). I remember once I was eating lunch at the mall and a really beautiful woman next to me started choking on her noodles and just couldnt stop. I grabbed her around the belly and squeezed as hard as i could but she kept going and i realized she was trying to communicate in her language, some Eastern Caucasian language that has like 79 consonants. I think she said "thanks Im okay!!" but it sounded more like "kʷhq̇'ṭəśḳiqā"

Will this language have grammatical gender?

Oh, also, what about clusters + h? Not a problem for the phonology, but the Romanization could get ambiguous if, for example, /s/ + /h/ can occur over syllable boundaries (or even within a syllable).

Can /ts/ contrast with a sequence of /t/ + /s/ or are you listing it as a single phoneme to show that it can "fit" in a single slot in the syllable strucutre rather than occupying two?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:17 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:00 pm 
Avisaru
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Note: I slightly modified the vowel system from my original post: /ɤ/ now has significant allophony and some level of vowel reduction in unstressed syllables exists.

Morphophonology: The Great Terghbaz Vowel Shift

Rather like English, Terghbaz had a chain shift of long vowels to new values at one point in its past. Unlike English, Terghbaz then proceeded to merge several of its vowels post-shift, mainly by merging similar short and long vowels.

Pre-shift, Terghbaz had the following vowel inventory:
/i u e ə o a/
/iː uː eː əː oː aː/

These vowels changed in the following fashion, in approximately the order given here:

[əː] > [wa] > [va] or [a] depending on other factors
[iː] > [aj]
[uː] > [aw]
[eː] > [iː]
[oː] > [uː]
[aː] > [oː]
[ə] > [ɤ]

Some time after this shift, vowel length ceased to be contrastive, becoming instead allophonic based on the presence or absence of a syllable coda, and thus the remaining long vowels merged with their new short counterparts. Still later this length variation became tenseness.

The sequence [wa] from former [əː] did some interesting things when [w] shifted to [v]. The [w] was deleted after labials, as well as after the sequences /Cr Cl Cn/. After onsets consisting solely of /r l n/, the new [v] metathesized with them, leading to [vr vl vn]. [hw] became [f]. Because the consonant that we write j was some sort of dorsal palatal obstruent at the time, clusters of it and [w] became [gv]. Lastly, in other situations [wa] simply went to [va].

Early Terghbaz shortened long vowels when they were followed by at least two short-vowel syllables or at least one long-vowel syllable in the same word. Thus, certain suffixes in modern Terghbaz cause former long vowels to shift to their old short counterparts. In some cases this actually reflects the history of the root; in others it has been extended to original short vowels by analogy. Also, in some cases the suffix has lost a vowel since the era when this rule solidified. Thus, the suffixes that cause this to happen must be memorized. Former [əː] can lead to some strange alternations, e.g. gvan “sheep” versus jŭnkaur “shepherd”, or fadz “beer, ale” versus hŭdzknezh “festival”.

Morphophonology: Ablaut

Terghbaz uses vowel ablaut to distinguish between verb forms and to distinguish verbs from deverbals, like many IE languages and like the Germanic languages in particular. I haven’t worked out the specifics yet, but I do know that strong verbs back and/or lengthen the vowel (as of the pre-shift values), e.g. baza “(s/he) speaks” vs. buz “spoke”.

Morphophonology: -g
,
I’m giving this ending its own section because it is far and away the most common morpheme, appearing on nouns and verbs alike.

The regular plural ending is -g. It has the allomorphs -k after voiceless consonants and -ig after velar stops. There is an exception to this last rule: Nouns with the agentive ending -ok end in -og in the plural rather thsn the expected *-okig. The ending triggers assimilation in final nasals, thus shrum “prophetic vision” yields shrung “visions”.

...Or rather, this is how it works in the most standard dialect that I’m mostly showing here. Many speakers extend the vowel epenthesis to all dorsal consonants (thus including the fricatives) or all stops (thus including /b t d/). These are actually mild conservatism, as the suffix previously contained a vowel that was lost in most environments. Still other speakers analogize the behavior of -ok to more, in some cases all, instances of final /k/, converting them directly tp /g/ in the plural. Lastly, some speakers delete final stops before this suffix, while transferring their voicing to it, e.g. mrek for standard mretk “cats”.

_________________
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Last edited by Chengjiang on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:10 pm 
Smeric
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So the -/g/ morpheme marks plurality on both nouns and verbs?

Also, I might have found a tiny inconstistency, and if not, I have a question. You mention that -g has an allomorph of /k/ after non-velar stops, including /p/ ... but there is no [p] according to the description in the first post, except after sibilants ... and that post also says a syllable cannot end in a sequence of a sibilant plus a non-velar stop. Does this mean that words ending in, for example, /-st/ are not possible? That's perfectly OK, of course, but it would be an exception to the generalization that Terghbaz is English with the gaps filled in.

I like the fossilized word pairs like /gvan/ ~ /jŭnkaur/ .... obscurity it one of my favorite parts of word building. Its just more fun when words have histories.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:11 am 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:32 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:41 am 
Avisaru
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I like this, an "orkish" sounding language was an idea that I played around with for a while without ever getting anywhere. I'm eager to see more.

Rather than Slavic, I would say based on what little vocab we have that it sounds a little bit like Persian - at least the name of the language does!

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Duxirti petivevoumu tinaya to tiei šuniš muruvax ulivatimi naya to šizeni.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:40 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Last edited by Chengjiang on Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:49 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 437
Location: Davis, CA
Personal pronouns

jesh I
org we
kram you (singular; orc)
krang you (plural; orc)
ku he/she (orc)
kug they (orc)
et non-ego (singular; non-orc)
etk non-ego (plural; non-orc)

Note that only the first person plural is suppletive while the others are regular, and even then the first person plural appears to contain a plural suffix. Note also the distinction between pronouns to be used for orcs and pronouns to be used for non-orcs, the latter of which can be used with a second- or third-person meaning. (Non-orcs speaking Terghbaz would still use jesh to refer to themselves.)

The greater regularity of these forms than is common in SAE languages extends to possession; they regularly take the genitive suffix -u, thus jeshu “my”, kramu “your”, kuvu “his/her” with regular epenthesis.

Other pronouns

shval who
shŭz what; which
shŭjin when
shŭnd where
dershval why; how
fersh this
hŭrsh that
kaiza now
hŭrshin then
find here
fand there

There are more anaphora than this expressible as phrases, but I haven’t worked out the full determiner system yet. Shŭz, fersh, and hŭrsh can all be used as determiners, and can also all take the plural and genitive suffixes, e.g. hŭrshku “of those”. Shval pluralizes to shŭzg but genitivizes normally.

Articles

ka(r) a(n); the consonant-final form is used before vowel-initial words
raul some

Nouns in Terghbaz are definite by default. Definiteness is indicated by the absence of an article, thus raul saug “some dogs” versus saug “the dogs”. As its absence makes the noun definite, the plural indefinite article cannot be omitted as it is in English.

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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:46 am 
Avisaru
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Any more word on this? I was keen to find out how the verbs work.

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