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 Post subject: Xwlàbijè scratchpad
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:41 am 
Lebom
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So I have had several sheets of messy personal notes laying around for some time and I thought I would share it to get some feedback on it. A lot of it is subject to change. Inspiration is all over the place, though mostly Northern North America.

Phonology:
/p pʰ p' t tʰ t' k kʰ k' q qʰ q' ʔ/ <b p p' d t t' g k k' gh q q' 7>
/ɸ~f s ɬ x xʷ χ χʷ/ <f s lh x xw h hw>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/ʋ r ɹ~j l ɰ ʀ/ <v r j l y rh>

/ɨ ə ä/ <i e a>
/V˥ V˩ V˥˩/ <a à â> The actual qualities are something like 4, 1 and 52

Syllable structure: C(c)V, where c is more sonorous than C, grouping the sound as above.

Stress hasn't been decided, though I am leaning mostly toward unbound weight-sensitive primary stress and EDIT: iterative, weight-insensitive, iambic secondary stress.

Allophony hasn't really been worked out much yet, except for dorsal fricatives assimilating in POA with a precceding dorsal plosive.

It is going to be rather heavily head-marking, head-first, suffixing, agglutinative and synthetic.
Word order in pragmatically neutral clauses is VSO but relatively flexible. Right now newly introduced persons and things that will be relevant later are placed before the verb.
Morphosyntactic alignment is active? (I think it's called that) - secundative.

Basic structure of verbs is as follows:
stem
incorporated noun
incorporated locatives and directionals
ass. derivative morphology
valency-changing operations
negative
mood
aspect
tense
persons
attitude-suffixes
con-/disjunction markers

Of these, only stem, mood, aspect and tense are obligatory.

Personal suffixes of verbs
Code:
           1.incl.  1.excl.  2.    3.anim.prox.  3.inan.prox.  3.anim.obv.  3.inan.obv.
Agt.sing.  -        se       mî    fnê           ya            xwà          qa
Agt.plu.   mrhe     jè       7vî   p'a           -             ghyì         -
Pat.sing.  -        la       rhî   t'i           xri           7lhe         ngrà
Pat.plu.   qnga     7ê       plhê  k'a           -             gnà          -

Number is only ever marked on animates. In addition to humans and live animals, spiritual entities and celestial objects are also considered animates.

Intransitive verbs take agentive or patientive suffixes depending on weather the subject is considered to be acting at it's own volition or not. Verbs can take multiple suffixes of the same kind if they are in apposition to each other. Verbs of sensual experiences and knowledge take objects in secundative case.

Examples (xàti: eat, sje: see, look at, watch, 7xè: fish, -fi: inan.obv, -lì: secundative, -hè: anim.obv):
Xàti-se-fnê-ngrà 7xè-fi - I and him/her eat/ate fish.
Sje-p'a 7xè-lì-hè They see/saw a fish.

TAM-stuff
Still very much in the works. For aspect I'm debating whether to have a relatively smaller system of something like perfective, progressive, continous, habitual, and leave things like inchoatives and resumptatives in "assorted derivational morphology", or whether to make a relatively bigger system.

Tense is going to behave more like english temporal adverbs; optional, and with a rather large paradigm.

I have mostly decided on the paradigm for moods:
Core moods:
Indicative
Interrogative (for polar questions)
Optative/imperative
Subjunctive (hypotheticals, usually with one of the connective moods)

Connective moods, used in subclauses:
Conditional (if)
Consequential (because)
Concessive (despite, even though)
Temporal (Always inflect for tense, tense is relative to the event in the main clause. "While he ate, [main clause]" would use present, "After he ate, [main clause]" would use past, etc.)
Relative (Used for relative clauses and sentential arguments. I think I'll make sentential arguments inflect for case and prox/obv somewhat differently than nouns.)

Nominal morphology

Basic form: stem - derivational morphology - posessor - case - number.proximity

Posessors use the verbal suffixes. Agentive suffixes for inalienable posession and patientive for alienable posession. Examples: xwlàbi (tongue) - xwlàbijè (our (excl.) tongue); 7xè (fish) - 7xèk'a (their fish)

Case (not fully decided):
Direct (for core arguments): -Ø
Secundative-genitive: -lì
Instrumental: -sà
Beneficative: -ga
Absessive: -qvâ
Comparative (for objects of equtive comparison (he eats like an animal), and, in combination with yet undertermined verbal suffixes, non-equal comparisons (it is bigger than an elephant)): [undecided]

Number and proximity:
Proximal: -Ø
Animate proximate plural: -da
Inanimate obviative: -fi
Animate obviative singular: -hè
Animate obviative plural: -dà

I have a system of locatives in the works that I will post soon(-ish (probably)).

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Last edited by gufferdk on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:53 am 
Smeric
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Two comments based on your statement that you were drawing inspiration from Northern North America, feel free to disregard. ;)

1. I have never seen <j> used to represent /j/ in a North American language. Depending on whether the contact language is English, French, or Spanish, <j> will generally be one of /ʤ ʧ ʒ x h/. I'd suggest <y ÿ> /ɹ~j ɰ/ (cf. Tlingit).

2. Rhotics are rarer in North America than laterals but not entirely unheard of. However, I don't know of any North American language that has multiple rhotics (discounting the uvular trill in this particular category), and I can't think of any off the top of my head with an alveolar trill--any North American language with a rhotic I can think of either has a tap or approximant.

Minus the rhotics, this phonology would fit very well into the southern or central Pacific Northwest: the phonology is quite Salish.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:21 pm 
Avisaru
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Zaarin wrote:
Two comments based on your statement that you were drawing inspiration from Northern North America, feel free to disregard. ;)

1. I have never seen <j> used to represent /j/ in a North American language. Depending on whether the contact language is English, French, or Spanish, <j> will generally be one of /ʤ ʧ ʒ x h/. I'd suggest <y ÿ> /ɹ~j ɰ/ (cf. Tlingit).

2. Rhotics are rarer in North America than laterals but not entirely unheard of. However, I don't know of any North American language that has multiple rhotics (discounting the uvular trill in this particular category), and I can't think of any off the top of my head with an alveolar trill--any North American language with a rhotic I can think of either has a tap or approximant.

Minus the rhotics, this phonology would fit very well into the southern or central Pacific Northwest: the phonology is quite Salish.


Salish minus the affricates, yeah. I would also say that I think for the dorsal fricatives it really is better with <h> for the velar and <x> uvular, but that's rather my personal preference (if one based on the many romanisations of the respective sounds found around the world).

As for your point 2., isn't it a bit arbitrary whether you analyse a language as having a phonemic tap or trill anyway, unless the contrast is phonemic?

Furthermore, a few Interior Salish languages have a coronal rhotic phoneme as well as a lateral.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:55 pm 
Smeric
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Frislander wrote:
Zaarin wrote:
Two comments based on your statement that you were drawing inspiration from Northern North America, feel free to disregard. ;)

1. I have never seen <j> used to represent /j/ in a North American language. Depending on whether the contact language is English, French, or Spanish, <j> will generally be one of /ʤ ʧ ʒ x h/. I'd suggest <y ÿ> /ɹ~j ɰ/ (cf. Tlingit).

2. Rhotics are rarer in North America than laterals but not entirely unheard of. However, I don't know of any North American language that has multiple rhotics (discounting the uvular trill in this particular category), and I can't think of any off the top of my head with an alveolar trill--any North American language with a rhotic I can think of either has a tap or approximant.

Minus the rhotics, this phonology would fit very well into the southern or central Pacific Northwest: the phonology is quite Salish.


Salish minus the affricates, yeah. I would also say that I think for the dorsal fricatives it really is better with <h> for the velar and <x> uvular, but that's rather my personal preference (if one based on the many romanisations of the respective sounds found around the world).

As for your point 2., isn't it a bit arbitrary whether you analyse a language as having a phonemic tap or trill anyway, unless the contrast is phonemic?

Furthermore, a few Interior Salish languages have a coronal rhotic phoneme as well as a lateral.

Really? I confess I'm more familiar with Haida/Na-Dene/Wakashan/Tsimshian than I am Salishan, Penutian, or the other languages of the PNW, but I was unaware of any PNW languages with rhotics. Most of the PNW languages I'm familiar with, then, like to pile on the laterals--but leave out the approximant (except Haida and Tsimshian, of course). I tend to associate New World rhotics with Plains languages + Muskogee and Tuscarora/Seneca (and some dialects of Mohawk).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:07 pm 
Avisaru
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Zaarin wrote:
Really? I confess I'm more familiar with Haida/Na-Dene/Wakashan/Tsimshian than I am Salishan, Penutian, or the other languages of the PNW, but I was unaware of any PNW languages with rhotics. Most of the PNW languages I'm familiar with, then, like to pile on the laterals--but leave out the approximant (except Haida and Tsimshian, of course). I tend to associate New World rhotics with Plains languages + Muskogee and Tuscarora/Seneca (and some dialects of Mohawk).


And you're right in making that association, but then Interior Salish isn't really part of the PNW, it's more like other languages on the Plateau, I feel (like Sahaptian/Nez-Perce/Kutenai)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:06 pm 
Lebom
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Cue PM from Janko and the sudden desire to make a number system:
Hybrid quinary-vigesimal system. Numbers go into the "derivational morphology" slot on nouns.

Used vocab:
dri - hand
ghvà - (hu)man
-7i - nominal conjunction cllitic (usually on both element, but not in the number system)
-t'lhà - additional, extra

1: plè
2: frha
3: yîne
4: nìmi

5: dri (a hand)
6: dri7iplè (a hand and one)
7: dri7ifrha (a hand and two)
8: dri7iyîne (a hand and three)
9: dri7inìmi (a hand and four)

10: drifrha (two hands)
11: drifrha7iplè (two hands and one)

15: drit'lhà (an additional hand)
16: drit'lhà7iplè (an additional hand and one)

20: ghvà (a man)
21: ghvà7iplà (a man and one)

25: ghvà7idri (a man and a hand)
26: ghvà7idri7iplè (a man and a hand and one)

30: ghvà7idrifrha (a man and two hands)
40: ghvàfrha (two men)
60: ghvàyîne (three men)
80: ghvànìmi (four men)

Native numbers above 99 (ghvànìmi7idrit'lhà7inìmi) do not occur. I might derive larger numbers in different ways if I ever make daughter-langs.


Zaarin wrote:
Two comments based on your statement that you were drawing inspiration from Northern North America, feel free to disregard. ;)

1. I have never seen <j> used to represent /j/ in a North American language. Depending on whether the contact language is English, French, or Spanish, <j> will generally be one of /ʤ ʧ ʒ x h/. I'd suggest <y ÿ> /ɹ~j ɰ/ (cf. Tlingit).

2. Rhotics are rarer in North America than laterals but not entirely unheard of. However, I don't know of any North American language that has multiple rhotics (discounting the uvular trill in this particular category), and I can't think of any off the top of my head with an alveolar trill--any North American language with a rhotic I can think of either has a tap or approximant.

The <j> was mostly a case of me wanting something that was relatively easy to type on a danish keyboard layout. I can make a ÿ on my keybard but j is significantly eaiser.

The rhotics are there because I didn't want it to be completely PNW-esque despite that being the main source of inspiration, and also because I like systems with multiple rhotics.

Frislander wrote:
As for your point 2., isn't it a bit arbitrary whether you analyse a language as having a phonemic tap or trill anyway, unless the contrast is phonemic?

I kinda intended for /r/ to actually be [ɾ~r] but I guess I forgot to write that :) .

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:54 pm 
Smeric
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Like I said, my comments were simply based on how to make the system more PNW if that's the feel you were aiming for. ;) I'm pretty fond of multiple rhotics myself; I had one language (currently in the "on hold" bin) that piled on rhotics the way PNW languages pile on laterals. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:57 pm 
Avisaru
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Zaarin wrote:
Like I said, my comments were simply based on how to make the system more PNW if that's the feel you were aiming for. ;) I'm pretty fond of multiple rhotics myself; I had one language (currently in the "on hold" bin) that piled on rhotics the way PNW languages pile on laterals. ;)


Yeah, same here; for me personally if I'm not going for an overt North-American feel of some kind, I actually prefer rhotics to laterals.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:52 am 
Lebom
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Promised system of locatives and demonstratives. The terminology is very ad hoc and probably all sorts of wrong.

The basic structure for locations and directions (first type) (examples: he ran towards the house, she sat in the boat:
directive
complement
(specifier)

Basic structure for objects at certain positions or in certain directions. This is then considered a stem that follows regular nominal morphology (second type) (examples the house on the mountain is big, those are big boats):
base nominal
directive
complement
(specifier)

Directives:
Code:
          First type  Second type
Locative  byè         lhi
Allative  vi          (same as first type)
Ablative  prha        (same as first type)
Perlative 7sê         (same as first type)


Complements:
The complement is a nominal and provides a reference frame for the directives. The complement can be omitted if it is the speaker. The complement does inflect for number (animates), but not for proximity (the proximate plural is used).
In addition to regular nominals, tna and bnga can also be used. Tna is used for places relatively close by (usually in sight) that can be pointed to, that are not near the speaker or the listener, while bnga is used for places far away.

Specifiers:

Specifiers narrow down the area around the complement that is talked about or shifts it in relation to the complement:
Code:
over/above - 7mî
under(neath) - q'axwnê
north of - gle
south of - sâme
east of - [undecided]
west of - [undecided]
inside of - [undecided]
outside of/area next to - [undecided]

I think I will have no relative directions (like some australian languages) and, if I ever make daughterlangs, derive the from something like "nose-to-north west" for left, etc.

Constructions can be nested
Constructions of type 1 will be able to incorporate in to verbs but I haven't decided on the excat circumstances and processes.
I have also decided that the verbal person-suffixes also can be used as pronouns.

Examples:
(A lot of these should probably inflect for some sort of aspect but I will ignore this for now, and come back and fix it once i have figured out how that is going to work)

Xàti-se-xri 7xè-prha-k'îmrà byè-gsê-la
eat-1S.AGT-3INAN.PAT fish-ABL-boat-LOC1 house-1S.POSS.ALIEN
I ate the fish from the boat, at my house.

Xàti-se-xri 7xè-prha-k'îmrà-lhi-gsê-la
eat-1S.AGT-3INAN.PAT fish-ABL-boat-LOC2-house-1S.POSS.ALIEN
I ate the fish from the boat at my house.

Pe 7vâ-byè-nleqi-da-sâme-xri
island be(location)-LOC1-mountain-anim.plu-south-3inan.pat (7vâ always incorporates a type-1 construction)
South of The Mountains lies an island. (The place Xwlàbijè is spoken is dominated by a large mountain range. This range is simply known as The Mountains and behaves grammatically as an animate.)

K'ne-7sê-nleqi-da-7mî-nighi-se, 7vâ-prha-bnga-mi7i-la
move-PERL-mountain-ANIM.PLU-over-RMT.PST-1S.AGT be-ABL-DIST-CNSQ-1S.PAT
I once went over The Mountains, because i am from there (the island).

Bèqja-xri xri-lhi
be.broken-3INAN.PAT 3INAN.PAT-LOC2
This/these is/are broken.


Up next: Probably more verbal morphology. I have also been working on an australian-inspired kinship system.

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Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español


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