North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

This may seem like a me-too at this point, with Salmoneus's language, but I am starting work on a North Germanic dialect group located in Ireland and the highlands of Scotland, assuming an alternate history in which there was much more significant Norse colonization of the region, to the point that the Goidelic varieties spoken already there were permanently displaced by Old Norse, which then developed in close contact with Goidelic to have a separate history from North Germanic in Scandinavia or in Iceland or the Faeroe Islands. Of course, centuries later it came under the influence of English, such that its members became minority languages (well more so than they already were), even though there was a movement motivated by Romantic nationalism to resist this, to mixed results, involving things such as artificially emulating Icelandic forms and calquing words from Icelandic.

[More will be added here.]
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Echobeats
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:17 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Echobeats »

Bonus points for initial consonant mutations!
[i]Linguistics will become a science when linguists begin standing on one another's shoulders instead of on one another's toes.[/i]
—Stephen R. Anderson

[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson

User avatar
spanick
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:35 am
Location: California

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by spanick »

Travis B. wrote:This may seem like a me-too at this point, with Salmoneus's language, but I am starting work on a North Germanic dialect group located in Ireland and the highlands of Scotland...
Ha! Funny thing is, I am working on a new Germlang too! Mine is decidedly not Northern Germanic though, but I felt the same "me too" way as well.

Excited to see what you come up with.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

Echobeats wrote:Bonus points for initial consonant mutations!
Actually, I do not think it will have these (even though I thought about it) because I figured the bulk of Norse colonization would have come a little too late to take part in the sound changes that made Old Irish what it was. OTOH, I do plan on having an orthography very heavily influenced by Classical Gaelic orthography, with large amounts of loans from Goidelic. Also, I expect syntactic influence from Goidelic (I will probably keep verb-second order, but will likely have things like conjugated prepositions and Goidelic-like limitations on the use of definiteness) as well as phonological influence (such as turning intervocalic ON voiced stops into fricatives, intervocalic short ON voiceless stops into short voiced stops, intervocalic long ON voiceless stops into short voiceless stops, and intervocalic long ON voiced stops into short voiced stops, preserving consonant length only in sonorants).
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
mèþru
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Location: suburbs of Mrin
Contact:

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by mèþru »

I think that an extensive settlement would just lead to a Goidellic-based pidgin, which slowly becomes a creole and then much more quickly decreolises.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

The most obvious changes from Old West Norse are phonological. Here are some ideas for sound changes (I know many of them are obviously fitting Old West Norse into Goidelic phonology):
  • Long fortis plosives develop into preaspiration.
  • All open-mid vowels merged with their close-mid counterparts to form mid vowels.
  • ø øː y yː > e eː i iː
  • ɛi øy au > eː eː oː
  • Cj and C before front vowels develops into palatalized or palatal consonants. Notably, sj stj skj and s st sk before front vowels all develop into ʃ. hj and h before front vowels becomes ç. ɣj and ɣ before front vowels becomes j. w before front vowels becomes vʲ. ʍ before front vowels becomes fʲ. Non-palatalized labial and coronal consonants become velarized. Coronal plosives which are velarized become dental.
  • θˠ θʲ ðˠ ðʲ > t̪ˠʰ tʲʰ d̪ˠ dʲ
  • hl hr hn > l r n
  • ʍ kʰw gw ɣw > kʰ kʰ g ɣ
  • Unstressed final short vowels and unstressed short vowels in inflectional endings > ə
  • Stressed open syllable lengthening
  • Shortening of all non-morphological geminates
Some notable morphological changes are:
  • Complete loss of verb agreement and, outside of a few verbs, subjunctive marking
  • Merger of the accusative with the nominative, except that for pronouns it merges with the dative.
  • Merger of the plural with the dual in favor of plural forms.
  • Leveling verbs to take the vowel of the root syllable in the 3rd sg. throughout their present and past forms
Notably nasal vowels are preserved and survive to date.

And so on. Right now I am really just jotting down thoughts.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

mèþru wrote:I think that an extensive settlement would just lead to a Goidellic-based pidgin, which slowly becomes a creole and then much more quickly decreolises.
Why? The Norse are the colonizers and Goidelic is the substratum.

(Unless you have the opposite outcome and Norse disappears within a few generations, leaving loans and little else. But that is not the case I am exploring here.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

The question I have is how do I not create simply an Irish-flavored Norwegian? After all language contact will likely encourage similar morphological changes as what happened in mainland Scandinavia...
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
mèþru
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Location: suburbs of Mrin
Contact:

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by mèþru »

Perhaps the Norse have close contact with the Danelaw, and their grammar and phonology is also influenced by Yorkshire and Northumbrian English (and vice versa)
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

mèþru wrote:Perhaps the Norse have close contact with the Danelaw, and their grammar and phonology is also influenced by Yorkshire and Northumbrian English (and vice versa)
Except places like Dublin and the Scottish highlands were colonized by speakers of Old West Norse, whereas the Danelaw was colonized by speakers of Old East Norse, so I assume the two occurred somewhat separately.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
mèþru
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Location: suburbs of Mrin
Contact:

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by mèþru »

They still are likely to set up trade - Descendants of the Norse settlers in the Danelaw were a big part of Medieval trade with Orkney. Also, the historical Viking presence in Ireland is usually linked to the Great Heathen Army.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

One problem I have is that I really want this Irish/Scottish Norse to preserve ON nasal vowels, to make it a little more interesting than simply taking later Old Icelandic and feeding it through all the changes that occurred from late Old Irish through modern Irish and modern Scottish Gaelic. (After all, dialectal Irish does have nasal vowels in places.) However, the thing is that almost all the documentation that is readily available on ON is really on later Old Icelandic, after the nasal vowels were lost. Does anyone have any good sources on earlier Old Norse, i.e. ON that would not have yet lost vowel nasality?
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Salmoneus »

Travis B. wrote:
mèþru wrote:Perhaps the Norse have close contact with the Danelaw, and their grammar and phonology is also influenced by Yorkshire and Northumbrian English (and vice versa)
Except places like Dublin and the Scottish highlands were colonized by speakers of Old West Norse, whereas the Danelaw was colonized by speakers of Old East Norse, so I assume the two occurred somewhat separately.
There was actually considerable interaction between the various kingdoms. The Uí Ímair ruled Northumbria 914-927, 939-944, and 949-952.

That said, it would indeed be silly to have Yorkshire English influence a language spoken in the Isles - Scottish dialects of English would surely be more influential (and standard English, of course). A goidelic-based pidgin makes no sense at all.

How do you avoid an Irish-flavoured Norwegian? Well... you don't. It's a North Germanic language with heavy Irish influence - that's basically an Irish-flavoured Norwegian by definition! You could perhaps aim for more of an Irish-flavoured Icelandic, but that's about it.


It doesn't make much sense to just, as you put it, take Old Icelandic and feed it through the Irish soundchanges; that's not how sound changes work. Your initial language isn't the same as Old Irish, so its changes will be different. Instead, aim to borrow individual sound changes where appropriate, and to aim in the direction of the same features. For instance, your language might develop a broad/slender distinction to match that of the Irish around it, without necessarily using the exact same sound changes. Likewise, you could certainly have mutations if you wanted them - the concept of mutations can be borrowed even if the exact sound changes aren't.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

I think I am really going to go with adding palatalization systematically, not simply because of Goidelic influence, but also because palatalization has showed up all across North Germanic anyway (implying that ON could very well have had allophonic palatalization already, else why would both Icelandic and Swedish have palatalization today despite the two being the North Germanic languages with probably the least contact), so more extensive palatalization is not that big of a stretch even without Goidelic influence.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

Part of what I mean by Irish-flavored Norwegian is that if similar changes happen in Irish/Scottish Norse as happened from Old Irish to modern Irish and Scottish Gaelic with regard to morphology, the natural outcome would be for the verbal morphology to largely collapse in on itself, just like happened in continental North Germanic languages, the likes of Elfdalian aside, leaving a language not all too different from continental North Germanic with regard to verb morphology (aside from a few obvious differences, such as never developing a synthetic passive). Also, I would probably favor a simplification of nominal morphology but not a complete collapse of the case system under Goidelic influence - of course, though, the natural outcome would be to have a nominative/dative/genitive case system, which would not make it all that different from dialectal Norwegian except that the genitive would be a proper case rather than merely a clitic. (I would probably preserve suffixed articles, but would combine them with redundant prefixed articles as well under Goidelic influence, as also appears in some North Germanic varieties. Also, I would probably preserve masculine/feminine/neuter gender, because of the competing influences from North Germanic to merge masculine and feminine into common, due to the similarity of their morphology once the masculine nominative singular ending is lost, and from Goidelic to merge masculine and neuter into masculine, which is unlikely because the definite article strongly distinguishes masculine from neuter.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

Okay, considering verbal morphology:
  • First conjugation weak verbs are distinguished by palatalization of the infinitive and present participle and i-umlaut, for short-stem first conjugation weak verbs in all forms except the past participle and the past indicative, and for long-stem first conjugation weak verbs in all forms. Finite stem vowels are leveled to the 3rd sg.
  • /ər/ (or after vowels, /r/) is the present indicative active ending. However long-stem first conjugation and third conjugation weak verbs receive palatalization in the present finite.
  • /əs/ (or after vowels, /s/) is the present indicative middle ending. However long-stem first conjugation and third conjugation weak verbs receive palatalization in the present finite.
  • /əs/ (or after vowels, /s/) is the strong preterite indicative middle ending.
  • /ə/ is the infinitive ending.
  • /dʲə/ (or after fortis obstruents, /tʲə/) is the weak preterite indicative active ending, except for second conjugation weak verbs, for which it is /ədʲə/.
  • /dʲəs/ (or after fortis obstruents, /tʲəs/) is the weak preterite indicative middle ending, except for second conjugation weak verbs, for which it is /ədʲəs/.
  • Second conjugation weak verbs ending in consonants have /ə/ as an imperative ending.
  • /ə/ with palatalization is the present subjunctive active ending.
  • /əs/ with palatalization is the present subjunctive middle ending.
  • /ə/ with palatalization and i-umlaut is the strong past subjunctive active ending.
  • /əs/ with palatalization and i-umlaut is the strong past subjunctive midde ending.
  • /dʲə/ (or after fortis obstruents, /tʲə/) with i-umlaut is the weak past subjunctive active ending, except for second conjugation weak verbs, for which it is /ədʲə/.
  • /dʲəs/ (or after fortis obstruents, /tʲəs/) with i-umlaut is the weak past subjunctive middle ending, except for second conjugation weak verbs, for which it is /ədʲəs/.
(And yes, despite my continental Scandinavian-esque leveling of the present indicative I figured I would keep the subjunctive.)
Last edited by Travis B. on Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

As shown in the above bit on the verbal system, I figured it would be a good idea to have a morphology to be more worn down than Old Norse, Icelandic, or Faroese, but not as much so as continental North Germanic, Elfdalian aside. It preserves the weak conjugations of Old Norse, in a worn down but not leveled fashion, and it maintains a morphological subjunctive. Yet at the same time person and number marking on the verb has been completely lost. (I figured it would be copying Irish a bit too much to preserve synthetic person and number marking in the first person.) Similarly, amongst nouns, adjectives, and determiners nominative forms are lost in favor of accusative ones, but nouns, adjectives, and determiners otherwise still decline for case, number, and in the case of adjectives and determiners, gender, but gender marking of adjectives and determiners is lost in the plural. This leaves it with more worn-down declension than Icelandic or Faroese, but with far more conservative declension than continental North Germanic aside from Elfdalian.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

About orthography, I have decided I will not use <bh> for /w/ and /vʲ/ - it is just too ugly. Rather I will use <u>. Likewise I will not mark /j/ with palatalized <gh> but rather with <i>.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

As for the name of the language, it is írsc [iːrˠsˠk], literally Irish. Of course, the name of Irish is borrowed from Old Irish as gédelsc [ˈɟeːdʲelˠsˠk], reflecting oːi̯ > øy > ei > eː.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
mèþru
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Location: suburbs of Mrin
Contact:

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by mèþru »

May I suggest the name Scotsc or something like that? I suggest the orthography should be based off of Middle Irish and diverge from Irish then on.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

The problem is that Scot- comes from Late Latin Scotti, whereas ON Írar, Írland, írska, írskr ultimately come from Old Irish Ériu, and I presume Norse living in Ireland and Scotland would initially be more acquainted with Old Irish than with Latin, at least before they Christianized.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

About the orthography, remember that for a long time this language (or later on, these languages) existed for a very long time in close contact with Irish and Scottish Gaelic, so I do not see any reason that its orthographic conventions would diverge until Irish and Scottish Gaelic were already in decline.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

I think I am going to preserve an accusative after all, with the note that all four cases are only ever distinguished in pronouns, with either the nominative and accusative or the accusative and dative otherwise being merged.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
mèþru
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Location: suburbs of Mrin
Contact:

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by mèþru »

Maybe the nominative and accusative are emerged in some declensions, while others merge accusative and dative?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: North Germanic in Ireland and Scotland

Post by Travis B. »

mèþru wrote:Maybe the nominative and accusative are emerged in some declensions, while others merge accusative and dative?
That is exactly my thought. 1st sg., 2nd sg., and reflexive pronouns distinguish all four cases, 1st pl. and 2nd pl. pronouns merge the accusative and dative, 3rd sg. and pl. pronouns, determiners, and the definite suffix merge the nominative and accusative, strong nouns and adjectives merge the nominative and accusative, and weak nouns and adjectives merge the accusative and dative.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Post Reply