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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:03 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 20
Location: In a shingle near Odin City
Note: This is still WIP and my first actual, somewhat thought-out conlang. I'd appreciate your feedback.

So, I have created this language- a bogolang in nature- which is basically what if Old English descended from Latin rather than Proto-Germanic.
It's not historically justified, I'm not gonna use it in any conworld, (though I might in the future) It's just a conlang.
It's still a bit historically accurate- the result is geared toward the Mercian dialect of OE, which is the dialect Modern English descended from.
And yes, I am going to develop the Romance version of ModE in a while.


/p t tʃ k b d g/
/f s θ ʃ h/
/w l r j/
/m n/
+ Gemination

Vowels and Diphthongs
/i y e æ ɑ o u/ + length
/iu eo æɑ i:u e:o æ:ɑ/

[dʒ] is an allophone of /tʃ/ after /n/.
[v z ð] are allophones of /f s θ/ between vowels, or a voiced consonant and a vowel.
/h/ is realized as a fricative in coda positions: [x] after back vowels, [ç] after front ones.
/g/ is realized as [ɣ] when not geminated or after /n/.
/n/ is realized as [ŋ] when before /g/.

Sound changes from Latin (in SCA-compatible format): https://pastebin.com/8MaXeXFi

Next up: Nominal Morphology

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm
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Location: Lake Tašpa
I like it, and I think I saw you talking about this language in another post a few weeks ago before you'd started work on it.

Are there minimal pairs between [ɣ] and [x], or between [ɣ] and any of the other realizations of /h/? If there are, have you considered merging the two even so, to match the lack of voice distinction in the other fricatives? I think this happened in Danish. It depends how close to modern English you want to stay, given that starting with Latin means you'll have certain sounds more often than Old English did, and possibly having some consonant clusters that Old English lacked or had only very rarely.

Also I'm curious to see your next post, and what happens to the many noun declensions and their cases and their plural forms given that English sound changes were more dramatic than Latin's. Will the noun cases disappear as in Earth-English or will they be analogized to a pattern that preserves some? I'm curious about articles too.

Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:16 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 20
Location: In a shingle near Odin City
Nominal Morphology

As in most Romance languages, The Fifth Declension fused with the First and the Fourth joined the Second.
Due to sound/grammar changes, Latin's Complicated Case/Number/Gender system got heavily simplified:
The Masculine absorbed the Neuter
The Vocative merged with the Nominative, The Locative with the Dative/Ablative
The Genitive was expressed with de + Ablative
Similarities between the different case endings made the Nominative and the Accusative merge, and so did the Dative and the Ablative

And we end up with just two cases: the Direct, used for the subject and the direct object, and the Oblique, used for everything else.

Here's the declension of a 1st declension noun, port 'gate':
    Sg    Pl
Dir port  porta
Obl porta perti

As in Latin, 1st declension nouns are mostly feminine, except for professions (like neaþ, 'sailor') and some of the now-gone 5th declension nouns (like di, 'day'). The distinguishing feature of this declension is the direct plural and the oblique singular being the same with an -a suffix, so '(to/from/of/) the gate' and 'the gates' are only distinguished by context (who am I kidding, word order does the job for you).

The 2nd declension, which consists of only male nouns (except for a few quirks like mænu 'hand' which mostly come from the former 4th declension), comes in a few flavors:

The original masculine (-us) nouns, like porcu 'pig':
    Sg    Pl
Dir porcu perċi
Obl porcu perċi

The neuter-turned-masculine (-um) nouns, like neoġōþu 'trouble':
    Sg      Pl
Dir neoġōþu neoġōþ
Obl neoġōþu neġēþi

And the -r masculine nouns, like æġer 'area':
    Sg   Pl
Dir æġer eġri
Obl æġru eġri

Also note:
pūr 'man' (in the male sense, not the general one) Has a slightliy irregular declension:
    Sg  Pl
Dir pūr pȳri
Obl pweoru pȳri

deo 'god' behaves like porcu: di '(to/from/of) gods'

The 3rd declension is the widest and most complicated, and contains nouns from both genders.
The -ibus endings from the dative/ablative plural have turned into -us in the variant spoken in the Britain, which then turned into plain -u.
Standard I-stem, like tyrri 'tower':
    Sg    Pl
Dir tyrri turre
Obl tyrri turru

Consonant stem nouns are declined the same, except for the -i in the direct singular.
Pure I-stem, like enimæl 'animal':
    Sg      Pl
Dir enimæl  enimǣli
Obl enimǣli enimǣlu

Mixed I-stem, like noht 'night':
    Sg    Pl
Dir noht  nohte
Obl nehti nohtu

Of course, additional mergers happen, and we're left with 5 declinations:
1st: port porta porta perti
2nd -um/-us > 2nd: porcu porcu perċi perċi
2nd -r > 3rd: æġer æġru eġri eġri
3rd C/I stem > 4th: tyrri tyrri turre turru
3rd pure/mixed I stem > 5th: noht nehti nehti nohtu
Yes, Latin has 5 declinations too, but 3 of them were variable (2nd, 3rd, 4th), whereas Briþenniċean declinations are consistent.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:35 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 20
Location: In a shingle near Odin City
Soap wrote:
Are there minimal pairs between [ɣ] and [x], or between [ɣ] and any of the other realizations of /h/? If there are, have you considered merging the two even so, to match the lack of voice distinction in the other fricatives? I think this happened in Danish. It depends how close to modern English you want to stay, given that starting with Latin means you'll have certain sounds more often than Old English did, and possibly having some consonant clusters that Old English lacked or had only very rarely.

True- [x]/[ç] only appear in Briþenniċea in ht and hs, the cognates of Latin x and ct, though in the development of English [ɣ] turned into [w] or [j], while [x] and [ç] disappeared altogether. I've already had this problem when I tried to create þ out of the blue, since Proto-Germanic already had it, but Latin never did. I don't think there are any minimal pairs- there's a reason [x]/[ç] are allophones of [h]- but I can flout historical accuracy and merge [x], [ç] and [ɣ], since the former two only appear before t or s, whereas the latter can appear everywhere (the spelling stays put though).

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 20
Location: In a shingle near Odin City

Adjectives in Latin had two declension patterns: The quite uniform 1st/2nd declension and the much more diverse 3rd declension.

The development of 1st/2nd declension adjectives in Briþenniċea is as follows:
æltu 'tall'
       Sg   Pl
M. Dir æltu elti
M. Obl æltu elti
F. Dir ælt  ælta
F. Obl ælta elti

As we can see, the main feature of the 1st/2nd declension adjectives is preserved: The masculine is declined like a 2nd dec. noun, the feminine like a 1st dec.
Unlike the nouns, the -r Adjectives do not form their own declension: meosru 'poor' and sæcru 'bright' follow suit (Although the F. Sg. Dir declension is meosir and sæcir respectively), thus regularizing the already uniform Latin 1st/2nd declension into the Briþenniċean 1st adjectival declension.

However, there are a few Latin adjectives whose Genitive Singular ending was -īus and the Dative singular was . Briþenniċea preserved these Changes, shown in tōtu 'all':
       Sg   Pl
M. Dir tōtu tēþi
M. Obl tēþi tēþi
F. Dir tōþ  tōta
F. Obl tēþi tēþi

The 3rd declension, of course, follows its own path.
Originally, it was divided into three categories: one-ending, two-endings and three-endings.
The one-ending adjectives, exemplified here with ætrōc 'evil, villianous' do not distinguish between genders:
    Sg     Pl
Dir ætrōc  ætrēċi
Obl ætrēċi ætrōcu

(The expected *ætrōce was replaced due to analogy with the current 5th dec. nouns (like noht)).

The two-ending adjectives, like eġili 'fast (human/animal)', once had a seperate Neuter form, but Briþenniċean has collapsed the Neuter into the Masculine, and they too do not distinguish gender:
    Sg     Pl
Dir eġili eġile
Obl eġili eġeolu

Those adjectives correspond to the nominal 4th dec. (à la tyrri).

The three-ending adjectives did distinguish gender and had -er endings like the (original) nominal 3rd dec., complete with adjectives who dropped the -e- and those who didn't. However, since the only difference between the Masculine and the Feminine forms was the Nominative Singular, the different forms were quickly levelled out, eliminating the gender distinction as well. Their representatives here are ċeler 'swift (movements)' and ælcer 'happy, jolly':
    Sg     Pl
Dir ċeler  ċeliri
Obl ċeliri ċeolru
Dir ælcer  ælecri
Obl ælecri ælæcru

All in all, Briþenniċean adjectives have 3 distinct declensions:
1st/2nd > 1st (æltu)
3rd 1+3 endings > 2nd (ætrōc)
3rd 2 endings > 3rd (eġili)

Comparatives and Superlatives
Briþenniċea keeps latin's dedicated suffixes and their behavior (Comparatives are declined like (Latin) 3rd and don't distinguish gender, Superlatives like (Latin) 1st/2nd and do distinguish)
For example: eltīr, eltisseomu 'taller, tallest'
    Sg     Pl
Dir eltīr  eltīri
Obl eltīri eltioru

       Sg         Pl
M. Dir eltisseomu eltissimi
M. Obl eltisseomu eltissimi
F. Dir eltissim   eltissima
F. Obl eltissima  eltissimi

-er adjectives behave a little different: their Superlative uses -rr- rather than -ss-.
ċelirīr, ċelirreomu 'swifter, swiftest'
    Sg       Pl
Dir ċelirīr  ċelirīri
Obl ċelirīri ċelirioru

       Sg         Pl
M. Dir ċelirreomu ċelirrimi
M. Obl ċelirreomu ċelirrimi
F. Dir ċelirrim   ċelirrima
F. Obl ċelirrima  ċelirrimi

A handful of (Current) 3rd dec. adjectives have a -li ending and use -ll- in their Superlatives, one of them being feċili 'easy', whose Superlative is fæciollmu.

Another handful of Latin adjectives had -eus/-ius endings and had no Comparative or Superlative endings at all, instead using magis/māximē before them. In Briþenniċea, those endings developed into -eo/-io and the adjectives decline in the standard way by removing their endings, i.e. bellǣtōrio 'violent' has the Comparative bellǣtērīr and the Superlative bellǣtērreomu, while eodōneo 'correct' has the Comparative eodēnīr and Superlative eodēnisseomu.

There are a few completely irregular adjectives when it comes to Comparatives and Superlatives, like
bonu 'good', milīr 'better', ettmu 'best'
mælu 'bad', pēġor 'worse', pisseomu 'worst'
māngu 'big', mār 'bigger', mæhseomu 'biggest'
pærwu 'small', meonor 'smaller', mineomu 'smallest'

Numbers (For good ol' Janko)
As in Latin, one, two and three, the hundreds (without one hundred) and one thousand decline; the others don't.
ūnu 'one'
du 'two'
tre 'three'
cwættūr 'four'
cwīncwe 'five'
sihs 'six'
sette 'seven'
ohtu 'eight'
nowe 'nine'
dece 'ten'

wiġinti 'twenty'
trīġintæ 'thirty'
ċeontu 'hundred'
mīlle 'thousand'

The number that do decline decline like so:
       Sg  Pl
M. Dir ūnu ȳni
M. Obl ȳni ȳni
F. Dir ūn  ūna
F. Obl ȳni ȳni

ūnu can also be used as the indefinite article.
M. Dir du
M. Obl du
F. Dir dua
F. Obl duæ

Dir tre
Obl tru

dycinti 'two hundred'
M. Dir dycinti
M. Obl dycinti
F. Dir ducenta
F. Obl dycinti

Sg mīlle
Pl. Dir mīli
Pl. Obl mīlu

Decline like 1st dec.
prīmu 'first'
secūndu 'second'
þertio 'third'
cwǣrtu 'fourth'
cweontu 'fifth'
sehstu 'sixth'
sitteomu 'seventh'
ohtǣwu 'eighth'
nōnu 'ninth'
diċeomu 'tenth'
The Ordinals can be used for fractions too, except for medio 'half'.

Latin (1st/2nd) and -iter (3rd) have been preserved:
misere 'sadly'
sæcre 'brightly'
tōþe 'completely'
ætrēċþer 'cruelly'
eġiliþer 'quickly'
ċeliriþer 'swiftly'
ælecriþer 'happily'
Their Comparative and Superlative forms, however, have been lost, being replaced with placing meġi 'more' and mæhsime 'most' respectively before the adverb.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:44 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 20
Location: In a shingle near Odin City

Latin Verbs are arugably the most intricate, complex and often baffling part of the language- but I'm not here to talk about Latin Verbs, but about their Briþenniċean offspring.

Grammatical changes ensue:
No more special Passive conjugations
The Supine is eliminated
The Future Participles are eliminated
The Gerundive is eliminated
All Infinitives except the Present Active are eliminated
The Gerund is merged into the Present Active Participle
The Past Participles are formed from the (former) Perfect Passive Participle
īre 'go' and hæbēre 'have' are used exclusively as auxiliaries

The TAM system itself underwent an overhaul:
The Present is Preserved
The Past is formed from the (former) Perfect
The Future is formed with īre + The Infinitive
The Perfect is formed with hæbēre + Present Part.
The Pluperfect is formed with hæbēre + Past Part.
The Future Perfect is formed with īre + hæbēre + Present Part.
The Present is Preserved
The Past is formed from the (former) Imperfect Indicative
The remaining tenses are formed by making the first auxiliary Subjunctive
Is preserved, but only for the Present tense
Is made by inserting sēre 'be' between the auxiliaries and the main verb
If there is no auxiliary, sēre is conjugated according to the tense
As a result, while all auxiliaries distinguish an Indicative and a Subjunctive form, only sēre has different tenses.

The auxiliaries' conjugations:
   Ind. Subj.
1s eo   ea
2s i    ea
3s iþ   ēþ
1p īmu  ēamu
2p īþi  ēaþi
3p eont ēant

   Ind.   Subj.
1s hæbeo  hæbe
2s hæbe   hæbea
3s hæbeþ  hæbēþ
1p hæbēmu hæbēamu
2p hæbēþi hæbēaþi
3p hæbent hæbeant

   Ind. Subj.
1s su   si
2s e    si
3s ist  siþ
1p sumu sīmu
2p isti sīþi
3p sunt sint
   Ind.   Subj.
1s fwi    er
2s fwisti eræ
3s fwiþ   eræþ
1p fweomu erāmu
2p fwisti erǣþi
3p fwērnt ērnt

--First Conjugation--
æmǣre 'love'
Present Part. æmān
Past. Part. æmǣtu

   Ind.  Subj.
1s æmu   æme
2s æmæ   æme
3s æmæþ  æmeþ
1p æmāmu æmēmu
2p æmǣþi æmēþi
3p æmænt æment
   Ind.     Subj.
1s æmǣwi    æmæ
2s æmǣwisti æmǣbæ
3s æmǣwiþ   æmǣbæþ
1p æmǣwmu   æmǣbāmu
2p æmǣwisti æmǣbǣþi
3p æmǣwērnt æmǣbænt

Imperative Sg. æmæ!
Imperative Pl. æmǣþe!

--Second Conjugation--
þenēre 'have' (in the possesive sense)
Present Part. þenēn
Past. Part. þeontu

   Ind.   Subj.
1s þeneo  þene
2s þene   þenea
3s þeneþ  þenēþ
1p þenēmu þenēamu
2p þenēþi þenēaþi
3p þenent þeneant
   Ind.     Subj.
1s þinwi    þene
2s þinwisti þenēbæ
3s þinwiþ   þenēbæþ
1p þinweomu þenēbāmu
2p þinwisti þenēbǣþi
3p þenwērnt þenēbænt

Imperative Sg. þene!
Imperative Pl. þenēþe!

--Third Conjugation--
ġerre 'manage, rule'
Present Part. ġerēn
Past. Part. ġeostu

   Ind.    Subj.
1s ġeoru   ġer
2s ġiri    ġeræ
3s ġiriþ   ġeræþ
1p ġireomu ġerāmu
2p ġiriþi  ġerǣþi
3p ġērnt   ġearnt
   Ind.     Subj.
1s ġissi    ġere
2s ġissisti ġerēbæ
3s ġissiþ   ġerēbæþ
1p ġisseomu ġerēbāmu
2p ġissisti ġerēbǣþi
3p ġessērnt ġerēbænt

Imperative Sg. ġere!
Imperative Pl. ġiriþe!

--Fourth Conjugation--
eadīre 'hear'
Present Part. eadiēn
Past. Part. eadītu

   Ind.    Subj.
1s eadio   eadi
2s eadi    eadiæ
3s eadiþ   eadīþ
1p eadīmu  eadiāmu
2p eadīþi  eadiǣþi
3p eadiont eadīnt
   Ind.      Subj.
1s eadīwi    eadie
2s eadīwisti eadiēbæ
3s eadīwiþ   eadiēbæþ
1p eadīwmu   eadiēbāmu
2p eadīwisti eadiēbǣþi
3p eadīwērnt eadiēbænt

Imperative Sg. eadi!
Imperative Pl. eadīþe!

Here's an exapmle of a complete TAM conjugation of æmǣre, alongside its Latin counterpart amāre:
æmu/amō 'I love'
æmǣwi/amābam 'I loved'
eo æmǣre/amābō 'I will love'
hæbeo æmān/amāvī 'I have loved'
hæbeo æmǣtu/amāveram 'I had loved'
eo hæbēre æmān/amāverō 'I will have loved'
su æmān/amor 'I am loved'
fwi æmān/amābar 'I was loved'
eo sēre æmān/amābor 'I will be loved'
hæbeo sēre æmān/amātus sum 'I have been loved'
hæbeo sēre æmǣtu/amātus eram 'I had been loved'
eo hæbēre sēre æmān/amātus erō 'I will have been loved'
æme/amem 'I may love'
æmæ/amārem 'I would love'
ea æmǣre 'I shall love'
hæbe æmān/amāverim 'I may have loved'
hæbe æmǣtu/amāvissem 'I would have loved'
ea hæbēre æmān 'I shall have loved'
si æmān/amer 'I may be loved'
er æmān/amārer 'I would be loved'
ea sēre æmān 'I shall be loved'
hæbe sēre æmān/amātus sim 'I may have been loved'
hæbe sēre æmǣtu/amātus essem 'I would have been loved'
ea hæbēre sēre æmān 'I shall have been loved'

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:00 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 20
Location: In a shingle near Odin City
Pronouns and Extras

Personal Pronouns
The Personal Pronouns, as with the other romance languages, preserve case distinctions that all other nouns have lost.
They distinguish four cases: Nominative, Accusative, Genitive and Oblique.
The First person Pronouns are derived from Latin ego and nōs, as expected:
    Nom Acc Gen    Obl
Sg. eġu me  meo    mi
Pl. nu  nu  noster nē

Keep in mind that meo and noster (and all Genitive Personal Pronouns in general) decline according to the gender and number of the possessed noun:
    M.     F.
Sg. meo    me
Pl. mī     mea
Sg. noster noster
Pl. nostri nostra

The Second person Pronouns also behave as expected, as decendants of and vōs:
    Nom Acc Gen    Obl
Sg. tu  þe  tu     þi
Pl. wu  wu  woster wē

and the declinations of the possessives:
    M.     F.
Sg. tu     tu
Pl. twi    twa
Sg. woster woster
Pl. wostri wostra

and the Reflexive Pronoun, se:
    Acc Gen Obl
Sg. se  su  si

    M.  F.
Sg. su  su
Pl. swi swa

The Third person Pronouns are unique, since not only they alone decline by gender and show no Genitive declension, they do not derive from Latin ille, like the rest of the Romance languages, but from hic:
       Nom Acc  Gen  Obl
Sg. m. hiċ hunc huġu hǣc
Sg. f. hāc hænc huġu hǣc
Sg. n. hoc hoc  huġu hǣc
Pl.    hi  hu   hōru hi

The Demonstratives develop from iste (proximal) and ille (distal):
    M.    F.
Sg. iste  ista
Pl. isti  isti
Sg. iolle iolla
Pl. iolli iolli

The Interrogatives and the Indefinite Pronouns do not inflect:
Type      Prox.   Dist. Int.   Ind.      Neg.
Adjective iste    iolle cwǣ    eli       non
Person    hiċ     hiċ   cwi    eliċwi    nēmu
Object    iste    iolle cwu    eliċwu    nīl
Place     hind    hond  ūnd    eleoċūnd  nullūnd
Time      ġæ      dīnde cwǣndu eliċwǣndu nulcwǣndu
Reason    þǣli          cwǣli
Manner    pruioll       prucu

Prox- Proximal
Dist- Distal
Int- Interrogative
Ind- Indefinite
Neg- Negative
So for example, the Object row means 'this, that, what, something, nothing'.

The Definite Article
As shown earlier, ūnu 'one' can be used as the Indefinite Article.
The Definite Article, eossu, developed from Latin ipse, and now declines as an adjective- as a 2nd class noun in the masculine, as a 1st class one in the feminine:
       Sg    Pl
M. Dir eossu issi
M. Obl eossu issi
F. Dir iss   issa
F. Obl issa  issi

Prepositions, Conjugations and Particles
ċi 'yes'
non 'no'
wel 'or'
se 'but'
de 'of'
ihtæ 'near'
æ 'to, at'
ænte 'before'
ċircæ 'around'
cu 'with'
contræ 'against'
ihs 'from'
in 'in'
inter 'inside'
pru 'for'
super 'above'
trǣs 'after'

Days and Months
lūnǣdi 'monday'
mertidi 'tuesday'
mercyrīdi 'wedensday'
ġēwdi 'thursday'
weniridi 'friday'
sæbtydi 'saturday'
demniċydi 'sunday'

jænuǣrio 'january'
feobruǣrio 'february'
merti 'march'
epril 'april'
ġūnio 'june'
ġūlio 'july'
agustu 'august'
settēmber 'september
ohtōber 'october'
nowēmber 'november'
decēmber 'december'

Some Proverbs
iss cucull non feċiþ eossu moncu 'You can't judge a book by its cover'
ūn mēs sān in ȳni corpu sānu 'A healthy mind in a healthy body'
æ þæntu mælu iss riliġio swǣdēre poþeþ 'To such great evil religion can drive'

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 am
Posts: 20
Location: In a shingle near Odin City
///!!!/// ABANDON THREAD ///!!!///
This thread is declared obsolete. I'm reworking the language. Sorry for the inconvenience, A revised version will be up soon.

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