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zompist bboard • View topic - Gartul, p.3- Phonology

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 Post subject: Gartul, p.3- Phonology
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:43 pm 
Niš
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Jeez. I hated this.

It’s necessary, yeah, but the phonology just seemed like SO MUCH WORK. Looking at the IPA chart, all the symbols.....................learning what phonology IS.....

I stuck pretty close to English for the phonology at first then decided to throw in a few extra sounds for the heck of it. Now, please note- just because a sound isn’t on this post doesn’t mean Gartul doesn’t have that sound. The English sound for ‘ay’ is still in the phonology, it just doesn’t have an alphabetical symbol. So all these IPA symbols are just the ones representing those which will have an alphabetical symbol.

Another gripe I had with the phonology was a result of my idiocy and beginner’s thought. I had an alphabet drafted for Gartul (the native alphabet and Latin alphabet can be used interchangeably: for world-building purposes I decided that the upper-class/middle class people would write in the native alphabet and the lower class would write in the Latin alphabet. The upper-class snobs would always detest the ‘vulgar’ (nyeate) Latin alphabet), then I realized that you can’t have an alphabet without a phonology, because alphabetical symbols represented sounds in the language and if I didn’t have sounds, I had no alphabet. Yay. So an alphabet will be coming soon.

Again, I stuck close to English for this, but threw in a few extra sounds for fun. Please critique me on this, as I hated doing this so I didn’t put in a lot of effort. Thanks.


Consonants

NASALS- n, ɳ, ɲ, m
LABIALS- p, b
FRICATIVES- s, z, ʃ, v, f, χ, h
TRILLS- r
APPROXIMANTS- j, l
PLOSIVES- t, d, g, ɟ
AFFRICATES- t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ
OTHERS- W (voiced labial-velar approximant)

VOWELS

CLOSE- i, u
NEAR-CLOSE- ɪ, ʊ
NEAR-OPEN- ɐ


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 pm 
Niš
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I don't know how natural you wanted this to be, or if there's something significant about the speakers that would change significantly how the phonology would manifest. Some points, in no particular order:

1. Vowels
Generally, a 5-vowel system will use /i e a o u/. Indeed, often the /i/ and /u/ will be simplified to [ɪ] and [ʊ], at least as I understand it. /ɐ/, I think, is fine, though others might simplify it or specify it as /a/ instead.
Which is all to say, I don't think a 5-vowel system with /i/, /u/, /ɪ/, and /ʊ/ is very realistic.

2. Layout
It looks like you're starting to get the hang of the phonetic chart. However, /p/ and /b/ are better categorized as plosives, rather than specifically as labials. They are labials, but they're labial plosives, and usually grouped with the other plosives. Similarly, I understand it's custom to group /w/ with the rest of the approximates. (I'd also group /ʧ/ and /ʤ/ with the plosives, but that's more a personal preference that could be debated.)

3. Plosives
The main issue here is /g/ and /ɉ/. As will show, if a language is missing any plosives in the back (where /g/ hangs out), generally the one it'll be missing is /g/, rather than /k/. Personallly, if you're gonna put a palatal plosive in, I'd have put /c/ in over /ɉ/, (or better yet, both) but I don't know enough about palatals to really judge here.

4. Nasals
I'm a bit confused as to what a retroflex nasal is doing here, particularly when you also have /ɲ/.

5. Phonology vs Alphabet
As I understand it, it's generally accepted to list out all a language's phonemes in its phonology, not just those with a dedicated letter (see English /θ/ and /ð/), because alphabets tend to only imperfectly reflect all the sounds in a language -- especially a couple hundred years after the alphabet's adoption. It felt like you were implying that you left out phonemes without a dedicated letter, but this would give an imperfect image of what the phonology actually looks like. For example, you leave out all your diphthongs (like English /aɪ/), though this would be a perfectly valid place to list them out.

Other than that, looks like a good start! It is kinda Englishy, but based on your other posts, it looks like you've managed to make something unique out of it. The hardest part about phonology is learning it all and figuring out how everything works -- the fun part comes after when all your friends keep looking at you weird for making strange noises with your mouth.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:20 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:37 pm 
Niš
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Last edited by vergil on Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:49 pm 
Niš
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1. Vowels
Generally, a 5-vowel system will use /i e a o u/. Indeed, often the /i/ and /u/ will be simplified to [ɪ] and [ʊ], at least as I understand it. /ɐ/, I think, is fine, though others might simplify it or specify it as /a/ instead.
Which is all to say, I don't think a 5-vowel system with /i/, /u/, /ɪ/, and /ʊ/ is very realistic.

I don’t entirely know what you mean by ‘realistic.’ I tried to model it after the English vowel system, just variants on a, e, I, o, and u.

4. Nasals
I'm a bit confused as to what a retroflex nasal is doing here, particularly when you also have /ɲ/.

It’s there... because I put it there? The world building here is very minimal. I just wanted to put it there.

5. Phonology vs Alphabet
As I understand it, it's generally accepted to list out all a language's phonemes in its phonology, not just those with a dedicated letter (see English /θ/ and /ð/), because alphabets tend to only imperfectly reflect all the sounds in a language -- especially a couple hundred years after the alphabet's adoption. It felt like you were implying that you left out phonemes without a dedicated letter, but this would give an imperfect image of what the phonology actually looks like. For example, you leave out all your diphthongs (like English /aɪ/), though this would be a perfectly valid place to list them out.

I will work on that, thanks for telling me.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:56 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:56 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:57 pm 
Niš
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If this was ever a languages vowel inventory, I would expect something like /i e a o u/ to come from it. Otherwise, if you wanted a more interesting 5-vowel system, /i a u ɨ ə/ would be cool and possible.

Thanks, that actually is pretty good.


you could consider adding retroflex stops, and maybe /k/ and /c/, just to even out your inventory.

I’d add k, but why c? C seems unnecessary.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:28 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:56 am 
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"The mid vowels were probably really close to the high vowels" is at least a possible position to take for the reconstruction of Proto-Japonic -- there are lots of raising chain shifts and lots of mergers of the mid vowels into the high vowels in Japonic, but the details aren't quite the same so the six-vowel system has to be projected back to PJ

Like, Miyako has your typical consonantalization chain shift (or "frication", but you also get syllabic nasals), which is what it looks like when the mid vowels push the high vowels even higher (so PJ *e *o > Miyako i u, PJ *i *u have various reflexes including s=, f=, m=, n=, v=; cf. that dialect of Chinese where ie i > i z=), but Japanese merges *e *o into /i u/ and develops new /e o/ from diphthongs, and Okinawan (I think) develops more *e *o from diphthongs in a similar way to Japanese and _then_ merges *e *o into /i u/ (and then develops some new /e: o:/)

(in Miyako *i *u probably actually 'fricated' everywhere, but some of the voiced fricated vowels were later lost -- IIRC, PJ *du > Oogami /kM/, paralleling *tu > /ks=/. there are probably some more Miyako dialects that preserve dz= or something, idk)

I don't think /a @ i 1 u/ is attested anywhere (but I'm probably wrong), but you can definitely do /a e i 1 u/ (Miyako) or /a o i 1 u/ (what is it, some Uto-Aztecan maybe?)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:54 pm 
Niš
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Hello all!

Here's an update on the phonology, as I have learned, is a bit rough.

VOWEL SYSTEM-

CLOSE- i, u
CLOSE-MID- e
MID- ə
NEAR-OPEN- a

CONSONANTS

I'm adding 'k.'

DIPTHONGS

ia (as in 'yah')
ai (as in 'buy')
ue (as in 'weh')
uə (like an umlauted o)
ua (as in 'wah')
au ('ow)

Okay, thanks. I'm trying to get an alphabet uploaded, but it always says that the 'image is too big...'


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:15 pm 
Smeric
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You could upload it on a hosting site or Google Docs and post a link

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