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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:30 pm 
Niš
Niš

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Hello! What languages do you know which declare the subject as one of its goals or which has it as a property? What languages have BNF, or EBNF, or their analogues? It is generally called `logical language', but I don't like the term, because it's quite broad. The advertisment of your own languages is welcome too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:26 pm 
Smeric
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First: Welcome! Have some pickles and tea! (It's a tradition for welcoming new members here. Usually another user with the user name mèþru does this instead of me. :P Sorry, mèþru!)
ImageImage
And to try to answer your question: English?

He was given a gift.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:47 pm 
Niš
Niš

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English is obviously ambiguous. In the phrase `Red roses and apples' - are apples red?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:08 pm 
Smeric
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BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
English is obviously ambiguous. In the phrase `Red roses and apples' - are apples red?

That's not an example of ambiguity for subject-marking though. :P You want the classic "Fruit flies like a banana" instead (bananas and fruits in general are able to fly, why do you ask?).

But if you do mean syntactic ambiguity in general, then it's hopeless with natural languages. You want a logical language like Lojban instead.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:13 pm 
Smeric
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I don't care Vijay. It's alright.


(Dammit, my ɇ-strokɇ armiɇs of doom can't rɇach Vijays' housɇ yɇt. I need more timɇ!

Yeah, that's what I was doing the past few days when I wasn't active on the forum.)

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:43 pm 
Niš
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Ser wrote:
BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
English is obviously ambiguous. In the phrase `Red roses and apples' - are apples red?

That's not an example of ambiguity for subject-marking though. :P You want the classic "Fruit flies like a banana" instead (bananas and fruits in general are able to fly, why do you ask?).

But if you do mean syntactic ambiguity in general, then it's hopeless with natural languages. You want a logical language like Lojban instead.


Thank you for the meaningful answer. Since the question is in the Conlagery & Conworlds I think it's clear I'm looking for conlangs. For the record, lojban has PEG and a special version of BNF. I am interested in other such conlangs too, if any.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:09 pm 
Avisaru
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Obligatory XY problem avoidance: why do you want to find them? Do you have a goal in mind?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:27 pm 
Niš
Niš

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Axiem wrote:
Obligatory XY problem avoidance: why do you want to find them? Do you have a goal in mind?

In responce to lojbans complexity I have created several conlangs with the subject and now I research how others did it and in what way differently. Maybe my approach has flaws I'd find worth fixing before I get the shame of publishing my stuff here.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:05 am 
Smeric
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Well, it means that you have less chances to make jokes. Ambiguity makes for easy jokes.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:05 am 
Niš
Niš

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mèþru wrote:
Well, it means that you have less chances to make jokes. Ambiguity makes for easy jokes.


I don't think so, because it's not about semantics. It's about uniquely parsing 1-dimensional array also known as the text into the abstract syntax tree. One can still play with the polysemy.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:55 am 
Smeric
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BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
Axiem wrote:
Obligatory XY problem avoidance: why do you want to find them? Do you have a goal in mind?

In responce to lojbans complexity I have created several conlangs with the subject and now I research how others did it and in what way differently. Maybe my approach has flaws I'd find worth fixing before I get the shame of publishing my stuff here.

I must say that in the nearly 10 years I've been here you're the first person interested in logical conlangs that I've seen coming here. This is actually more of an artistic conlang forum. I have no idea where the logical conlang people hang out though.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:32 pm 
Avisaru
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Ser wrote:
I must say that in the nearly 10 years I've been here you're the first person interested in logical conlangs that I've seen coming here. This is actually more of an artistic conlang forum. I have no idea where the logical conlang people hang out though.


There's a small enclave on the CBB but apart from that I have no idea either. I imagine it's probably a bit like the auxlang community: the ones who get behind already existing projects tend to stick to the language-specific forums while those who try to create new projects don't tend to talk much because they can never totally agree on anything while they avoid the artlangers because differing objectives.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:21 pm 
Niš
Niš

Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 2:03 am
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Holy cow! Everything was first once. Actually CBB users pointed me to Gua\spi and Toaq, and I'm going to study these for a while. If there's more such conlangs, please let me know.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:22 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

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Location: Austin, TX, USA
BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
Since the question is in the Conlagery & Conworlds I think it's clear I'm looking for conlangs.

It isn't, I'm afraid. If people never talked about natlangs here, I'd never post in this section at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:38 pm 
Avisaru
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Ser wrote:
I must say that in the nearly 10 years I've been here you're the first person interested in logical conlangs that I've seen coming here. This is actually more of an artistic conlang forum. I have no idea where the logical conlang people hang out though.


Huh? Sindyr has a whole lot of posts in C&C Quickies for their conlang, which while not explicitly stated, is basically an attempt at a logical conlang (and people have even pointed them to the various logical conlangs that are already hanging about). To the point where at first I thought this thread was just them creating a second account to continue spreading the Gospel of Reason.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:40 pm 
Niš
Niš

Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 2:03 am
Posts: 8
Vijay wrote:
BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
Since the question is in the Conlagery & Conworlds I think it's clear I'm looking for conlangs.

It isn't, I'm afraid. If people never talked about natlangs here, I'd never post in this section at all.


OK, I'm new here. What's the relevant section? Languages & Linguistics? C&C Quickies? Could mods please move the thread to the place it belongs?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:07 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
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Location: Austin, TX, USA
BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
Vijay wrote:
BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
Since the question is in the Conlagery & Conworlds I think it's clear I'm looking for conlangs.

It isn't, I'm afraid. If people never talked about natlangs here, I'd never post in this section at all.


OK, I'm new here. What's the relevant section? Languages & Linguistics? C&C Quickies? Could mods please move the thread to the place it belongs?

No, I'm not saying it's in the wrong section, and I realize you're new; that's why I'm saying all this in the first place. :) I'm just saying that it isn't obvious without further specification that you specifically meant conlangs. This would be true no matter which section of this forum this thread was in.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:30 pm 
Niš
Niš

Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 2:03 am
Posts: 8
Axiem wrote:
Ser wrote:
I must say that in the nearly 10 years I've been here you're the first person interested in logical conlangs that I've seen coming here. This is actually more of an artistic conlang forum. I have no idea where the logical conlang people hang out though.


Huh? Sindyr has a whole lot of posts in C&C Quickies for their conlang, which while not explicitly stated, is basically an attempt at a logical conlang (and people have even pointed them to the various logical conlangs that are already hanging about). To the point where at first I thought this thread was just them creating a second account to continue spreading the Gospel of Reason.


From quick reading I failed to find the description of Sindyr's conlang, and others mentioned don't feature the subject, e.g. Laadan. I acknowledge that my hobby is unlikely going to interest anyone.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:04 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
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Axiem wrote:
Huh? Sindyr has a whole lot of posts in C&C Quickies for their conlang, which while not explicitly stated, is basically an attempt at a logical conlang (and people have even pointed them to the various logical conlangs that are already hanging about). To the point where at first I thought this thread was just them creating a second account to continue spreading the Gospel of Reason.
Thank you. I admit I haven't been reading Sindyr's threads, since the English-y first version(?) of the conlang was off-putting...

BGu0fnaqQ wrote:
From quick reading I failed to find the description of Sindyr's conlang, and others mentioned don't feature the subject, e.g. Laadan. I acknowledge that my hobby is unlikely going to interest anyone.
We the people of the ZBB just happen to be almost exclusively artlangers. Have you tried joining the CONLANG-L email list and sending a message to them asking about people who are interested, and have made, logical conlangs? There is quite a number of people in that mailing list, and there might be someone.

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