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zompist bboard • View topic - Indo-Semitic concept bogolang

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:20 pm 
Sanci
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After a while of working on my Anglo-Romance bogolang, I had the idea of taking the bogo up a notch, and I conceived a concept AU in which Northeast Semitic languages (Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic etc.) were descendants of Proto-Indo-European.
I'd like ideas on how to kickstart the thing and some soundchange lists for Northeast Semitic langs (not correspondences, actual "A turns to B under condition C" soundchanges).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:31 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:42 am 
Sanci
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Thanks Mate!
There's tons of info there, I'm indebted to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:28 pm 
Sanci
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Well... Sh*t.
Yeah, there really isn't much info about the Semitic langs, and my first SCA testrun with the soundchanges (plus a few more that I've brewed myself/borrowed for historical accuracy, like the laryngeals becoming full vowels) failed horribly.
Although deriving all of the modern Semitlangs from Proto-Semitic is feasible, Applying soundchanges to a phonology that is very incompatible with them is not gonna work.
My previous Anglo-Romance project worked pretty well with slapping a slightly modified version of the Proto-Germanic -> Old English SCs onto Latin, since the phonologies of the two parent languages are pretty similar:

Nasals and Overlong vowels could be ignored, and many other features could be dealt with- Romance!OE without /θ/ is fine by me.
However, have a gander at PIE vs. PS:

Tell me- How on earth would soundchanges geared towards a language with emphatics and 14 fricatives work on a language with voiced aspirated plosives and syllabic sonorants?
Dangit, seems like I'll have to create most of the soundchange list out of the blue.
As a nooblanger, I require your assistance! :(


Last edited by ÜberBen on Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:42 pm 
Smeric
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It seems that you have hit on the fundamental problem of bogolanging: The sound changes you are trying to apply to your starting language just don't fit because they presuppose a different phonology. And PIE and Proto-Semitic are not even close, they are almost as utterly different as they could be.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:30 pm 
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thread might be useful.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:50 pm 
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If you want to use the West Semitic sound changes as written, you're going to have to make PIE look like PS first by hand. However, there's another snag: a great deal of the flavor of the Semitic languages comes from massive morphological analogy and leveling. An Indo-European language could easily develop a Semitic-like phonological inventory (just as Maltese, Neo-Punic, and [to some extent] Modern Hebrew developed Indo-European-esque phonological inventories), but it's still not going to look Semitic without the significant grammatical reanalysis that characterizes the Semitic languages.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:49 am 
Sanci
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I never even considered giving the Indo-Semitic bogolangs nonconcatenative morphology!
They're supposed to be descendants of PIE, and thus should have IE-like morphology, not the 3C root system of actual Semitic langs.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:20 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:18 pm 
Smeric
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The role of ablaut in PIE morphology is pretty overstated, imo. It's certainly nowhere near as prominent as in Semitic.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:02 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:12 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Another idea may be would be to keep the lRnygeals as is, nd shift /a o/ to grammatical identity with them, so that , essentially, all vowels come to behave az lagnrgeals and to this merges ablaut. E.g. Greek/ apator/ "fatherless " becomes a regular pattern, with the 2nd vowel of a noun u n noun always /o/ when that affix/prewfix i cix is added to the beginning.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:09 am 
Lebom
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Speaking of Semitic and Indo-European languages interacting, what would you say would be the effect of heavy, prolonged influence of a mix of Modern Arabic dialects on Modern English?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:13 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:51 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:12 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:14 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:21 pm 
Smeric
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Small aside on *h₃ - xʷ isn't very likely, since Anatolian doesn't display any rounding when the laryngeal is preserved, in constrast to the labiovelar stops which do. The actual labiovelar fricative in Anatolian is the reflex of *h₂w.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:40 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:21 pm 
Smeric
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I mean the only evidence for a labialised *h₃ is a rounded *o, so... And my main reasons for not thinking *o to have been originally rounded (though I do concede it may well have been rounded at least after Tocharian split off) are precisely that I don't believe *h₃ to have been labialised.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:30 pm 
Smeric
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I doubt that it's relevant because this conlang is not so far away from the rest as Tocharian and would therefore have labialisation.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:17 am 
Smeric
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It's only really relevant if they want to keep the laryngeals, which they probably do. My belief is that there is no solid case for a rounded *h₃, but a reasonable case against it, but it is ultimately up to OP. Besides, a discussion on *h₃ is better suited for elsewhere, don't you think?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:12 am 
Smeric
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