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zompist bboard • View topic - Aʻatun Scratchpad: Inventory questions

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:22 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
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The are allophonic rules for /ɹ ʁ l ʟ/ involving syllable moras that lead to odd pronunciation changes, of which five examples are below. Please help me explain the rules. Mostly, they'll lead to [ɑi oi] diphthongs after nasals, plosives, affricates, and fricatives or a syllabic [i] between a vowel and a consonant or postvocalically.
1. Superbia —> ['su.pe.i.bi.ɑ]
2. Gamora —> ['ɢɑ.moi.ʁɑ]
3. Lizolda —> [ʟi'zoi.dɑ]
4. Taras —> ['tɑi.ɹɑs]
5. Arbiter —> ['ɑl.bɑi.te.i]


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:17 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:16 pm 
Smeric
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Intergalactic Standard is straightforwardly T5. Sphinx is... weird because it has /ʏ ɯ/ instead of /i u/, but is otherwise T5.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:14 pm 
Lebom
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Modern Intergalactic standard has lost its laterals (/ɬ l/) as the results of [ɹ l ʟ→ʁ] and /ɬ→h/. The other change associated with these was /r→ʀ/. What sound changes would be logical, aside from the standard allophonic rules for /ʁ/? One allophonic variation would be [lf→p͡f] because of [vf] being very hard, if not impossible, to articulate. This is here instead of sound change quickies so it won't need to be moved later.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

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[vf] isn't especially hard - consider "I ha[v]e [f]our cats". If anything I would expect it to turn into [v:] or [f:].

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:34 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

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I should have mentioned that IgS doesn't geminate consonants. Thus, /ŋ/ is always pronounced as in sing,never as in finger ([ŋg]).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:58 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US
Changing to permit geminates seems like it'd be an "easier" sound change than fortition to [pf].

(By the way, [ŋg] is not a geminate.)

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:38 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Point.

As for the [lf→p͡f], there's a reduced vowel (e) between the [vf] of "have four," whereas Alfia would be analyzed as [av.fi.a] in this case.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:30 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
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Location: Milwaukee, US

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:46 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
I'm thinking of the silent <e>, which still isn't reduced. There's a word boundary there as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:22 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Sound changes from Common to Intergalactic Standard:
1/2. [liqC+C→C] and [postvoc. liqC→v] (Arbaiter ['ɑɹ.bɑi.teɹ→'ɑ.bɑi.tev]);
3/4. velarization/uvularization (Alikra [ɑ.li'kɹɑ→ɑ.ʟi'kʁ̝ɑ], Rikishi ['ri.ki.ʃi→'ʀi.ki.ʃi]);
5. [nk→ŋ] word-finally and preceding a word-final /ɑ o u/ (Senka ['sen.kɑ→'seŋ.ɑ]);
6. delateralization (Balos ['bɑ.ʟos→'bɑ.ʁ̞os], Hlasa ['ɬɑ.sɑ→'hɑ.sɑ]); and
7. palatalization (Altrunia [ɑl'tɹu.ni.ɑ→ɑ'tʁ̝u.ɲɑ])


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:32 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Can /ɲ/ be used for [mj nj] or just [nj]? Same question for /ŋ/ regarding [mk mg nk ng].


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:43 am 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:03 pm
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Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands
/m/ can also assimilate, so [J Nk Ng] are possible as realisations of /mj mk mg/.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:43 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Is having [c k] as one glyph with /k/ as the underlying phone workable?


Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:24 pm 
Smeric
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What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:20 am 
Lebom
Lebom

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Intergalactic Standard and Pahus use a simplified hieroglyphic alphabet. Currently, (linked because hieroglyphs aren't supported) means either sieve or placenta as an ideogram. Do I need to come up with another word for placenta as sieve will be the more common meaning?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:24 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
The general rule for -<Cia> and -<Ciu> is for the <i> to palatalize the preceding consonant, creating /mʲ nʲ/ among many others. Could the palatalizations with corresponding consonants have morphed into those consonants (/nʲ→ɲ/) somewhere along the line? The replacement of palatals with uvulars (/c→q/) in Pahus is stopping me from doing it off-hand.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:36 pm 
Avisaru
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- My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

- An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:25 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Okay. The current palatal-velar-uvular relationship (e. g. /c k q/) works out so only palatals and velars, such as /c k/, appear in Galactic Standard while only velars and uvulars, such as /k q/, appear in the Outsider language. The only exception is the /j→ʁ/ in Outsider because /ʁ/ always represents the uvular fricative in both languages, leaving /ɰ/ as Outsider's only approximant.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:37 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:50 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Okay. Is there a feasible way to merge /j→ʁ/ (/ʁ/ being fricative and paired with its trill /ʀ/ in allophony), or would the change have to be something like /j→ɹ̠̊˔/? Somewhere along the line, there was a /w→ɰʷ→ɰ/ as well.

Sound changes
nʲ→ɲ (likely)
kʲ→c (likely)
xʲ→ç (???)
c→t͡s (likely)
ç→θ/θ̠ (likely)
j→ɹ̠̊˔ (???; fronting, devoicing, frication)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:27 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US
xʲ > ç is extremely likely. On the other hand, ç > θ seems less likely, about as likely to turn into any other more front fricative. ç > {ɕ ʃ h 0} seems more likely to me.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:23 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Okay. Apparently, /ɹ̠̊˔/ is a better transcription for <r> than /ʁ/ because it pairs with voiceless consonants, such as /k/. Is /j/ likely to survive into Outsider?


Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:37 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US
Well... the main way [j] changes is being absorbed into adjacent consonants as palatalization, being absorbed into adjacent vowels, or undergoing fortition to the likes of [ɟ dʑ dʒ]. I honestly don't see [j] becoming a rhotic, much the less a voiceless one (unless, say, it is adjacent to a voiceless consonant), TBH.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:51 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Great! Would /ʃ͡ɹ̠̊˔/ or [ʃɹ̠̊˔] be the most likely outcome of <shr> since both components are voiceless post-alveolar fricatives?

Which inventory layout below is correct for the coarticulations since they have their own IPA table?
(a)
/m n ɲ ŋ̊ n͡m/
etc, or
(b)
/m n ɲ ŋ̊/
...
/n͡m/
...


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