zompist bboard

I am not aware of postalveolar non-sibilant voiceless fricatives even existing (even though alveolar non-sibilant fricatives do exist), especially adjacent to a postaveolar sibilant voiceless fricative. If they did exist, I would expect the situation to be highly unstable, and to quickly turn into just [ʃː].


I do question why you have a single voiceless nasal with no matching voiced nasal rather than series of voiced nasals and a matching series of voiceless nasals.

Anyways, I would put that as:

/m n ɲ n͡m/
/ŋ̊/

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Generally, /ɹ̝̊ ɹ̠̊˔/ are only adjacent to /t s/. However, I pronounce [sɹ̝̊] as [ʃɹ̝̊] due to speaking English natively. As for the single voiceless nasal, Altrunians merged [nk ŋ~ŋ] (<nk ng>) before devoicing several consonants. Is /ŋ/ still valid after the devoicing? I figured they may devoice it because of the <k>, even though /m n/ survived the devoicing.

Sound progressions (noting that changed sounds are in red text)
Galactic Standard or prior
/nʲ→ɲ/
/kʲ→c/
/xʲ→ç/
/t͡ʃ→k/
/d͡ʒ→j/
Galactic Standard-to-Outsider
/tʲ→tɹ̝̊/
/c→t͡ʃ/
/sʲ→sɹ̝̊/
/ç→ʃ/
/j→ɟ/

Would /j→ɟ/ or /j→ʝ/ be more likely? I don't like the insertion of a /g/ phoneme where one never existed before (/ɟ/ sounds like <gy>).

/j→ʝ/, definitely, but it's hardly worth noting. In Swedish at least, and probably other Scandinavian languages as well, <j> is a [ʝ] not [j], but they sound almost identical anyway, and that's coming from a native speaker of both English and Swedish.

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Bish Bash Rabadash

Got it.

What are likely outcomes for /r̥ʲ rʲ/, if any exist?

Historical /rʲ/ in Polish became modern Polish /ʐ/. This in turn can be devoiced to [ʂ].

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Is /ɳ/ a likely outcome for /mʲ nʲ→ɲ/ in Outsider? The idea is that /ʝ/ is supposed to be Outsider's only palatal or palatalization.

I can't think of an example of [ɲ] changing to [ɳ].

Are /ʈʂ ʂ/ more likely outcomes for /c ç/ than /t͡ʃ ʃ/?

I would say the other way around; /c ç/ are more likely to become [t͡ʃ ʃ] than [ʈʂ ʂ].

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Before I post my combined recap, is /ʃ→ʂ/ or the reverse more likely?

I'm not sure one is more likely than the other, but I think /ʃ→ʂ/ is especially likely after a rhotic.

As of now, Outsider has both /ʃ ʂ/. Essentially, I'm asking if the sounds are stable enough to coexist, and, if they aren't, which would survive the merger.

Polish and Mandarin both have /s ʂ ɕ/ without any problem, so if you feel /ʂ ʃ/ are too close together, you could back /ʃ/ to /ɕ/.

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Some languages or at least language varieties have /ʂ/ and /ʃ/ without any problem, too. (Pashto and some varieties of Hindi come to mind).

Thanks for the help, guys.

What are likely outcomes of /tʲ sʲ/? [pr̥ʲ tr̥ʲ kr̥ʲ sr̥ʲ]? I'm reasonably sure the sequences would end in /ʂ/ but want to make sure.

Any of [tɕ ɕ] or [tʃ ʃ] seem likely for the former. For the latter, any of [pʂ tʂ kʂ ʂː] or [pʃ tʃ kʃ ʃː] seem likely.

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Okay. Somehow, I forgot about /pʲ/. What are likely outcomes for it?

Either it would stay as is, or it would turn into something like [pç], [pɕ], or [pʃ], even though in some languages (e.g. Tibetan varieties) /pj/ has turned into one of [cç], [tɕ], or [tʃ] (I don't remember which exactly offhand),

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Could it lenite to [fʲ] or something like that?

It might be able to under average circumstances, however, Outsider speakers would devoice it back to [pʲ] because the language's only voiced consonants are supposed to be /m n ɲ ŋ ʐ ʝ ɰ r/.

Umm... [fʲ] is voiceless.

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

Point.

How likely are the following changes: (a) /ɕ→ʂ/ (/ʃʲ→ɕ/ changing for the same reason /kʲ→c/ changes), (b/c) /pʲ→fʲ→θ/ (/pʲ→fʲ/ would be a merger), and (d1) /θʲ→r̪̊/ or (d2) /θʲ→r̪/

I've never heard of any of those happening FWIW.