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zompist bboard • View topic - Aʻatun Scratchpad: Inventory questions

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:10 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

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The languages once barred gemination; instead, gemination will now be marked by what started as palatalization ([ik.nɑ'sʲɑ→ik.nɑ'ssɑ]) or an elided liquid ([ɰi'sol.tɑ→ɰi'so.ttɑ]).

While not gemination, the above conditions apply to /xʲ/, etc. as well ([in.tus'tr̥ʲɑ→in.tusʈ'ʈ͡ʂɑ]).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:16 am 
Lebom
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As I've stated before, Altrunians would have devoiced /b→p/, etc. Later on, they respelled the devoiced consonants. Would a /j→ʝ→ç/ progression make sense in this context? /j/ can't, merely, vanish offhand because it would necessitate insertion of /ʔ/ as they'd go out of their way to retain a historical prevocalic consonant.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:47 am 
Sumerul
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One thing to remember is that people do not know how past speakers spoke their language; people don't do things or not do things sound-change-wise because of how things are "supposed" to be or because people in the past did things a certain way. To invoke this requires that other varieties are spoken alongside a given variety that can influence it, or the existence of an orthographic tradition that can be a source of spelling pronunciations.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:34 pm 
Lebom
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Languages spoken on Altrunia, such as Common and Sphinx, coalesced into Altrunian around 100 years after the planet was unified. Sometime before Altrunians conquered Protewa, most of the voiced stops, affricates, and fricatives were devoiced (later to be respelled). Eventually, the religious figures created Pahus by removing most palatal consonants, eliminating all palatalizations from the language, changing /l/ to /w/ (word-initially or -medially) or [ʔV] (postvocalically) (coincidental respelling), and changing /j→ʝ/. Eventually, the final change migrated to the parent language. Is the /ʝ→ç/ needed to eliminate voiced consonants from Altrunian/Galactic Standard an attested change? The /ʝ→ʃ/ required to eliminate palatals from Pahus?


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:07 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

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Afwia is the current spelling of Alfia following /ɑ/ merging into /ɔ/ (later changed back to /ɑ/) and /l/ merging into /w/. Is ['ɑf.fwa] or ['ɑf.w:a] a more natural outcome, considering the new geminiation rule?


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:47 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:28 pm 
Smeric
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Location: Austin, TX, USA
Malayalam has /jj/ and /ʋʋ/.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:37 am 
Lebom
Lebom

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Which of /p f p̪͡f ʋ̥ ɰ̊ ɥ̊ k͡p/ are likely outcomes for /ʍ/? They try to keep, at least, one place of articulation constant.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:44 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

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Location: Milwaukee, US

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:40 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
, /ʍ→f/, while unattested, is quite possible (cf. /w→p/). As it stands, /ʍ/ is their only approximate because /l/ merged into /w/ and /j/ fortited to /ʝ/ before devoicing to /ç/.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:29 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
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IIRC ʍ > f does occur in some Scots varieties.

The thing is that it seems like you intentionally seek out rare or otherwise highly unlikely sound changes and have a poor understanding of how sound change happens (it does not happen because a language is "supposed to" be a certain way, and people have no memory of how people spoke any more than a few generations ago unless such is codified in a standard variety that is synchronically extant or otherwise reinforced by orthography). I would recommend that you work on acquiring a good working knowledge of linguistics at this point.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:57 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

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I've decided to leave /ʍ/ alone. I'm rushed at this point because my collaborator went behind my back and scheduled one RP a year, with the one the languages are for planned for next year. Thus, I only have six-and-a-half months to get the basics down. Hells, I'd be much further along at this point if I'd used the current setting right away. Given this timeframe, I'm trying to keep the changes from Galactic Standard to Pahus simple because I can't construct a second language if the first is giving me this much trouble. Of course, this may be a lose-lose situation for me.


Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on Sun May 13, 2018 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:15 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:45 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:20 am 
Lebom
Lebom

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Is /l→ʋ/ a likely change?


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:08 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:28 pm 
Sumerul
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I should also state that often changes that are implausible as single steps are often plausible when broken up into a chain of intermediate steps which are each plausible.

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:56 pm 
Smeric
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There are cases of /l/ changing to [u] in some Dardic languages. Surely getting [ʋ] from there should be pretty trivial. Even as a direct change, I'm not sure /l/ > [ʋ] is really implausible.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:47 am 
Lebom
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Okay. Thanks. What are possible endpoints for /fʲ θʲ ðʲ ʋʲ/, if any exist?


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:17 pm 
Smeric
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/ç ç ʝ ʝ/ or /ç ç ʝ j/ are perhaps the most obvious short of depalatalizing. /ʋʲ/ > /v/ is also not inconceivable. I'd buy /θʲ/ > /ɕ~ʃ/.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:05 pm 
Smeric
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I would expect either fronting of some sort or no change. (That's not to say there aren't necessarily other possible outcomes).


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:47 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

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Okay. I may end up with a four (/i e̞ u ɑ/ or /i e̞ o̞ ɑ/) or five (/i e̞ u o̞ ɑ/) system. If there's a four vowel system, is /u>o̞/ or /o̞>u/ more likely?


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:34 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 pm 
Smeric
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I find /i e̞ u ɑ/ more likely than /i e̞ o̞ ɑ/.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:07 pm 
Smeric
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